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I don't see the faith in the quote in my last post. It says maybe there's an undiscovered particle or something. Then it says an alternative might be that something is wrong with gravity theory. Scientists would support anything that explains all the data well enough. They aren't married to the wimp idea.
Originally posted by sacgamer25
At least I know my belief takes faith, I am just asking for science to admit there is a bit of faith that comes with their way of thinking, their religion.
0:07 I want to say a bit about science and religion
4:16 The universe could have been created by God 10,000 years ago to appear extremely ancient....
But if that's true what is the meaning of observations of the natural world if our senses can lie to us?
Originally posted by swanne
I must admit am now a bit curious as to what was your theory you exposed. Would you like to discuss it over PM?
edit on 8-6-2013 by swanne because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by Phage
It's Hawking.
Who ever claimed the scientific method is perfect? On the other hand, God is perfect, right? Isn't that what religion (Judeo-Christian religion anyway) teaches?
So who protested in those 100 years? Who was rejected, exactly? What alternatives were presented?
Do you expect science to completely examine every bit of every foundation on an ongoing basis?
But the angle isn't 37º and apparently Kelvin has not been discarded. Yet.
So it seems that Rabaud has more work to do before we throw Kelvin's formulas out the window. As it should be. He made the claim, he needs to answer the questions.
The article Phage found doesn't say that, in fact it mentions a shallow water effect that has been "well-known" to be different than the Kelvin prediction. Apparently nobody rejected this "well-known" shallow water effect, and the authors who did the latest research were hardly rigorous in apparently not considering it adequately.
Originally posted by swanne
Let me present it to you this way: although I am not a walking encyclopedic database (and neither are you obviously), I am fairly confident alternatives were presented during all that time. Which logically implies they were rejected.
Originally posted by Arbitrageur
The article Phage found doesn't say that, in fact it mentions a shallow water effect that has been "well-known" to be different than the Kelvin prediction.
Le sillage aquatique semblait donc un phénomène parfaitement connu et expliqué, si bien qu'il n'a plus été étudié.
Even if the authors are onto something, we generally don't feel that Newton was completely wrong even though Einstein came up with models that were more accurate in certain situations.
based on the standard model of cosmology, the total mass–energy of the universe contains 4.9% ordinary matter, 26.8% dark matter and 68.3% dark energy.
based on the standard model of cosmology, the total mass–energy of the universe would contain 4.9% ordinary matter, 26.8% dark matter (assuming its existence) and 68.3% of dark energy (assuming its existence).
GPS won't work without Einstein's tweaks but plenty of things still work fine using Newton's classical math, so whether Newton's math has been superceded by Einstein's or not depends on the specific application you're talking about. When relativistic effects are negligible Newton's math works fine.
Originally posted by swanne
Hm... Isn't that a longer way and more politically correct way of saying Newton was superseded by Einstein?
And I'd agree in that case. Einstein IS more accurate. But in other cases, such as Dark Matter, and Dark Energy, which are nowadays almost presented as undisputed facts in encyclopedias, I'd tend to disagree.
Originally posted by Arbitrageur
When relativistic effects are negligible Newton's math works fine.
The quote that was recently made in this thread from about.com regarding dark matter said there's a "mountain of evidence" for it. A mountain of evidence doesn't equal a fact when the cause hasn't yet been discovered. The about.com quote shows it's NOT considered an "undisputed fact" since it even mentions modified gravitational theory as an alternate possibility, while pointing out the problems with that idea.
Even physicists will simplify expressions if the more complex and more accurate expression serves no particular purpose for the problem being solved. In cases like this the dropped terms are said to be "negligible". The complete theory will have all the terms, but when using the theory to solve problems, one can drop terms deemed to be negligible for the stated conditions in the problem.
Originally posted by swanne
Einstein's are more precise, but Newton's are more easy to remember. But in physics isn't precision more desirable than easiness?
Yes.
Hm... are you refering to this about.com article? space.about.com...
Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by mbkennel
No it's not at all like religion. Dark matter theory makes quantitative predictions about properties of motion which result in specific statistical consequences. These properties have been verified in prospective astrophysical observations and compared to results from alternative hypothetical explanations. So far dark matter has passed all the observational tests and fits data better than any other theory. It's missing direct, specific particle physics identification.
There are quite a few flaws with the dark matter theory, that is why no one teaches it as fact. The first link is in simpler language for anyone who wants to see for themselves.
space.about.com...
ned.ipac.caltech.edu...edit on 9-6-2013 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)
I'm going to hazard a wild guess that this post is a criticism of our purpose and rules, possibly this is born out of a misunderstanding of the point of this site. These forums are not for developing new scientific theories, they are for the teaching and discussion of mainstream science. Many of us (myself included) are scientists who speculate daily in our work but still enjoy this place for what it is. The rationale behind this decision is simple; we have had forums in the past (first called theory development, later independent research) where members could come and speculate wildly in an attempt to try and make a new theory but 99.99% of the time they were crackpots. They wouldn't listen to criticism, didn't understand the science they were talking about and wasted hours of members and mentors time alike.
www.physicsforums.com...
I can't deny that I'm influenced by my past experiences. However, even without reading any books I can look at features like Sideling Hill and conclude that it exhibits processes that represent a very long time, much longer than 10,000 years. So yes I think this photo shows something about the age of the Earth that we can see by looking at it:
Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by Arbitrageur
The world doesn't look to be any age, unless you can see age of the earth with your eyes? Since the idea of Evolution became the model, and the model only works with an old universe and an old Earth.
Lose the fixation on radiometric dating. Look at the mid-atlantic ridge and the measured separation of South America from Africa at about 2 centimeters a year, and at evidence they were once connected. Now maybe they haven't always moved at 2 cm per year, but figure out how fast they would have to separate if they were once connected and the Earth is only 10,000 years old, and ask yourself if that answer makes any sense. You don't need radiometric dating to do that.
It is impossible to know the age of the Earth, when science itself can't explain the anomalies that occur with Radiometric Dating. It is also known based on observable science that it is impossible to conclude that the radiation of any object has not been contaminated by outside sources. If the object has been affected by outside sources, which we can demonstrate through scientific method that this not only does occur but is like to occur, then we certainly cannot know the date of anything more than a few thousand years old.
If science is not a religion based on faith, then let us remove Evolution from my children's schoolbooks. I would prefer my children learn science, and not be indoctrinated into a way of thinking that limits the lens in which they look at the world.
I am only making the same claim against science that science makes against God.
Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by sacgamer25
I am only making the same claim against science that science makes against God.
Science makes no claims against God. It does make claims against young earth creationism. And dont try to pretend that we dont know. A few thousand years old world and billions of years old world will look a lot different, it is a huge difference and we would see it. And what we see supports an old Earth. There are controversies and unclear questions in science, this is not one of them.edit on 10/6/13 by Maslo because: (no reason given)
Science itself is not religion.
Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by sacgamer25
Science itself is not religion.
So, like some of us in this thread, you disagree with the OP.
I didn't build my house or my world on evolution. Whether or not it's a fact does not affect my life in the least. On the other hand, what would happen to faith if the theory of evolution were to be "proven" true? It affects me not one jot whether or not the big bang theory is correct.
The problem is Evolution is far from a Rock as with Dates that pertain to the age of the earth and the universe. Maybe separately each one of these things represents something that appears to be solid. But one day you may realize you have built your house on pebbles and your house will come crashing down
It is not a matter of believing in evolution (why do you capitalize it?) or radiometric dating (why do you capitalize it?). It's a matter of having some understanding of both. But I think that the evidence fits the theory of evolution very well. It is not a matter of faith, it is a matter of critical thinking.
If you believe in Evolution or Radiometric dating results, than you do so based on faith.
There are no proven theories. Science always leaves a door open to be revised if evidence which contradicts a theory appears.
Your religion is to believe in theories that are not yet proven.