A psychology thread: The Holy grail of psychology - Cognitive-behavioral therapy

Oh! I love it! This stuff is amazingly effective, did you know that it is more effective than prescription medicines?

In fact, I have taken a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy. It massively reduced my obsessive-compulsive behavior through self-hypnosis and exposure to extreme focus on the obsession / compulsion and then extreme exposure to the anxiety caused by not acting on the compulsion, for example, sitting in front of a bookshelf I want to organize and not organizing it.

It can also be used to help super hard to cure disorders like borderline personality disorder and even anti-social personality disorder.

Not only that, but insurance providers love it because it is cheaper than medicines, and it has a lasting effect, you can "graduate" from it.

Bof. On one hand, I tend to just see this as part of living, and do not understand why it has to be made into a system and taught to anyone. A simple observation of ones influence upon their own life and experiences makes it clear that how you feel about things is a key, and you can play with that.

Beyond that, what bothers me about someone having a teacher, therapist or guide in toggling that inner switch is that the self mastership and empowerment potential is just taken over by someone else.

We're including in this coping mechanisms for contexts of powerlessness, which can be useful, yes- but should someone else be determining whether you should "cope and make it comfortable" or reject and muster energy together to effectuate change ?

There is an underlying idea that maybe someone else can determine the difference between that which you cannot change and that which you can (or that which you should change). It's a slippery slope, in my thinking.

It isn't as simple as just positive thinking. I am having a mind blowing experience the last few days with a young new recruit at my work, who has got to be the most clueless idiot ever- no one has ever been so totally inept at a job, doing things wrong, refusing to follow commands from superiors, to follow rules... she comes in late and says 'I'm hungry, so I am going to go out and eat and start my shift later", she is really doing everything you could imagine to make sure to get fired.

Yet listening to her, she really, truly believes she is doing an excellent job. She says she has set new standards in the workplace, the chefs obviously recognize they couldn't find any better, and she is really very proud of herself and though she is on a try-out basis of two weeks, is demanding to know when she is going to get a full contract- she "knows" she'll have one and wants it- NOW.
While the chefs are smacking themselves in the head for havign even let her in the door and everyone is fighting the urge to smack her. It is already known to everyone else that as soon as her two week contract is up she is out - and maybe flying, by the seat of her pants.

Her positive view of her situation is NOT going to make her situation more positive. Sometimes being down to earth and realistic, and recognizing the parts of life that need your energy (your negative emotion, your anger or rejection) for you to change them, is necessary. Others are more useful in giving you feedback on the outside objective facts- but I still think what we do with those, how we decide to FEEL about them, should be within out own power to choose only.

CBT is good for people wanting to escape the spiral of negative thoughts or self-destructive behaviours. Some people benefit from talking to counsellors and others want a different approach where they can attack the sources of their problems.

CBT focuses on identifying a negative thought and following its trail of destruction through our psyches. Some CBT counsellors recommend paperwork for this element of the therapy - you'd keep notes about trigger thoughts and follow them through a form of conflict spiral. By shining light on the negative thought processes, you can begin to kinda say, 'Whoah there! You're that little emotional vampire thought aren't you? Well this time around, you're not on the guest list. Piss right off!'

CBT isn't a 'Holy Grail' for everyone, it's like any other therapy and will work for some more than others. It's also only as good as the counsellor and is as reliant on the therapist-patient relationship as any other treatment. As people, we don't 'take' to everyone and the counselling relationship has to be based on positive regard and a sense of warmth that goes both ways.

Over 15 years, I've been down the counselling route a handful of times and found the CBT approach a good one and the NLP slightly better still.

Originally posted by Bluesma
Beyond that, what bothers me about someone having a teacher, therapist or guide in toggling that inner switch is that the self mastership and empowerment potential is just taken over by someone else.

We're including in this coping mechanisms for contexts of powerlessness, which can be useful, yes- but should someone else be determining whether you should "cope and make it comfortable" or reject and muster energy together to effectuate change ?

There is an underlying idea that maybe someone else can determine the difference between that which you cannot change and that which you can (or that which you should change). It's a slippery slope, in my thinking.

CBT is a tool that the therapist gives you to help you do the job better - it is a little bit like someone giving you a hammer so you can bang in a nail whereas before you were using a screw driver and were confused as why it was not working effectively. CBT brings you to the here and now because you learn to watch thoughts and emotions arise.
CBT is a bit like TA - they are both tools to bring you to where the action is happening. I am still interested in your views on TA - would you be able to direct me to your posts that you said you have written about TA?
In my opinion these are tools to help get to the heart of the matter, in my experience neither of these (CBT or TA) tell you what or how to think, they may get you to challenge the thought with a 'is that true?' - they just get you to hear the thinking as it arises and feel the emotional charge as it arises - it brings one home.

CBT is all about removing the fear in the body by recognizing that the thoughts are causing them. Seeing that thoughts do not actually know what they are talking about can relieve the fear and anxiety that plague so many people.

Originally posted by Bluesma
Bof. On one hand, I tend to just see this as part of living, and do not understand why it has to be made into a system and taught to anyone. A simple observation of ones influence upon their own life and experiences makes it clear that how you feel about things is a key, and you can play with that.

Beyond that, what bothers me about someone having a teacher, therapist or guide in toggling that inner switch is that the self mastership and empowerment potential is just taken over by someone else.

We're including in this coping mechanisms for contexts of powerlessness, which can be useful, yes- but should someone else be determining whether you should "cope and make it comfortable" or reject and muster energy together to effectuate change ?

There is an underlying idea that maybe someone else can determine the difference between that which you cannot change and that which you can (or that which you should change). It's a slippery slope, in my thinking.

It isn't as simple as just positive thinking. I am having a mind blowing experience the last few days with a young new recruit at my work, who has got to be the most clueless idiot ever- no one has ever been so totally inept at a job, doing things wrong, refusing to follow commands from superiors, to follow rules... she comes in late and says 'I'm hungry, so I am going to go out and eat and start my shift later", she is really doing everything you could imagine to make sure to get fired.

Yet listening to her, she really, truly believes she is doing an excellent job. She says she has set new standards in the workplace, the chefs obviously recognize they couldn't find any better, and she is really very proud of herself and though she is on a try-out basis of two weeks, is demanding to know when she is going to get a full contract- she "knows" she'll have one and wants it- NOW.
While the chefs are smacking themselves in the head for havign even let her in the door and everyone is fighting the urge to smack her. It is already known to everyone else that as soon as her two week contract is up she is out - and maybe flying, by the seat of her pants.

Her positive view of her situation is NOT going to make her situation more positive. Sometimes being down to earth and realistic, and recognizing the parts of life that need your energy (your negative emotion, your anger or rejection) for you to change them, is necessary. Others are more useful in giving you feedback on the outside objective facts- but I still think what we do with those, how we decide to FEEL about them, should be within out own power to choose only.

You story about that girl has nothing to do with CBT. CBT is not about being unrealistically stupid... its about knowing reality as it is but still be optimistic. Ill come back later...

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

CBT is a tool that the therapist gives you to help you do the job better - it is a little bit like someone giving you a hammer so you can bang in a nail whereas before you were using a screw driver and were confused as why it was not working effectively.

Let us be more specific- When I was reading this thread, what I perceived was an approach and usage of psychotherapy which indicates a "teacher" (the word posters used) to direct someone to the correct kinds of thoughts.

Now, the basis of this is really not special- it is the same for most psychotherapy and psychoanalysis- thoughts effect emotions, and behavior. The common logical conclusion to pull from that is that a change in thought will bring about a change in emotion, and a change in behavior.

One of the most common activities in any psychotherapy is offering a time and space that is conducive to self analysis and introspection- in which a person expresses and examines their thoughts and emotions (that there is your separation from and observation of emotional states and thoughts. This was a base way back to the beginning of psychology, and not specific to this school of practice).

With that, is also the theory that certain thoughts are maladapted to ones intents- for example, one's effective coping mechanisms at one point in life become an obstacle later on, as context and circumstance has changed.
That also, is not new or specific to this branch of therapy.

Here, I just found this said more concisely than I could put it, on Wiki-

The premise of mainstream cognitive behavioral therapy is that changing maladaptive thinking leads to change in affect and in behavior, but recent variants emphasize changes in one's relationship to maladaptive thinking rather than changes in thinking itself. Therapists or computer-based programs use CBT techniques to help individuals challenge their patterns and beliefs and replace "errors in thinking"

CBT brings you to the here and now because you learn to watch thoughts and emotions arise.

All psychoanalysis and psychotherapy does that.When one puts their emotions and thoughts into linear expression, they become objectified by the self awareness. They are suddenly "not I", as they have left in the language.
Freudian therapy put emphasis on this, and the following of "flow of consciousness".


This new variant, which I see people here refering to, in which a therapist or computer program determines which of your thoughts are maladaptive and which aren't, is the part I find questionable here.

Plus, in this day and age, now past the eighties and "a shrink for each person" trend, we've all pretty much gotten accustomed to the process of talking about your feelings and "getting them out", now. There really is not much new there, is there?

As for your continued demand for my previous posts in which I wrote about Transactional Analysis- sigh- I don't know why it is so important to you, but now I can access my past post records and will go pull up a few if you wish. I would like to know why you have such an interest in my opinion on it particularly though, in exchange?
Here's a couple-
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

With transactional analysis as well, I think it is useful for alerting ones attention to the way we can better observe our subconscious motivations through observing the predictable results they give.
But from there, to go into the systematic judgement of whether or not those subconscious drives are "good" or "bad" puts into question not only the right to self determination, but also the effectiveness of the method in the long term.

It keeps the individual dependant upon their 'teacher', therapist, or system, to judge which of their thoughts is acceptable or not. The therapy becomes simply another ethical system, which one can get from a religion or philosophy (rather than allowing one to become the author of their own philosophy or system).

Originally posted by Manula

You story about that girl has nothing to do with CBT. CBT is not about being unrealistically stupid... its about knowing reality as it is but still be optimistic. Ill come back later...

Well, practitioners of CBT may vary in their personal judgments of what is an error in thought, and what is a correct thought. This example I bring up is linked to a particular system I am familiar withthat of my mother, a doctor of psychology and a psychotherapist. Much of her view was that optimistic or positive thinking has the effect of bringing about optimistic or positive events, through the subtle interactions of the individual with environment.

Like- a person believes truly that they are good at something, they will become so, (and their entourage will believe so too, being a further influencial force in bringing it into reality). Thus, much focus on positive re-enforcement and perception. Do not focus upon your weaknesses and faults, focus on your strengths and abilities, etc.

There may be some value to that, under certain circumstances, but it also can fail miserably, creating narcissists that are way out of touch with reality and others.

But again, I recognize that not all practioners of CBT wil hold the same ethical system of judgement on correct or incorrect thoughts- yours may be different. All the more reason I am not sure it is necessary to have a teacher who determines that- that is nothing more than a guru then, and no longer the neutral witness of a therapist.
I prefer the original idea of a therapist as one which walks with you as you find your own path and way, rather than one which leads the way and shows you theirs.
But that is just my own preference.

Originally posted by Bluesma


As for your continued demand for my previous posts in which I wrote about Transactional Analysis- sigh- I don't know why it is so important to you, but now I can access my past post records and will go pull up a few if you wish. I would like to know why you have such an interest in my opinion on it particularly though, in exchange?
Here's a couple-
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Thank you for posting this - I am not sure I was demanding - it's not really important to me but you did tell me that you had written about TA after I asked you if you had ever heard of TA - I was just interested in your view of it.
Thanks.

It is never about whether thoughts are good or bad - one must not judge them, one must just become aware of them and see how they colour your life.
Katie Byron uses a technique similar to this (she calls it the 'work') - it is about realizing that there are thoughts and beliefs that contradict and asking whether they are actually true. Most people have thoughts and believe them without question - it is about challenging thoughts and beliefs to see if they are true.
Here is a short video of Katie Byron in action.

Originally posted by Bluesma
It keeps the individual dependant upon their 'teacher', therapist, or system, to judge which of their thoughts is acceptable or not. The therapy becomes simply another ethical system, which one can get from a religion or philosophy (rather than allowing one to become the author of their own philosophy or system).

CBT and Katie Byron do not keep you dependent because they get you to do the work yourself.

There is no correct thought or no incorrect thought, however, if a thought is distressing then it is not doing you any good. Most thoughts are repetitive and negative. Thoughts cause the body to react and then that causes more thoughts that distress the body even more - people have panic attacks and hyperventilate just because a thought distresses them and they try to make bargains and trade offs with the thought. They spend most of their lives battling with thoughts and some do not even realize that if there was peace inside there would be peace full stop.
Instead of fighting and arguing or resisting and hiding from thoughts, one must become aware of them and face them full on. A therapist will help spot the distressing repetitive thought patterns and challenge them.
It is amazing how much lighter life can be when the distressing repetitive thoughts and beliefs are lifted up, looked at and challenged and found not to be true.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


I'm sorry, I watched half of it and just couldn't continue. Do you know what leading is?
It is when you ignore the answers that do not suit what you are trying to get from someone. (like the people who answered in the audience and were ignored by her; such as the comment "I become self conscious").

It is when you give subtle or not so subtle feedback indicating when you are pleased with someones reaction, or if they are getting closer to what you are looking for them to say or do. (like nodding your head, saying "yeah", "yes").

Re-enforcing the intended view is especially effective if you can make the other person feel that "now you see, others around you agree with you- this confirms it." (like refering back and forth between the individuals and as many others who repeat your desired message "familiar? you see!")

This shows how important it is to pay attention to what is being done as well as said.

I do not agree with you that she was neutral on the question of whether it is good or bad to search out the approval of others- I think she replaced the word "good" with "truth".

reply to post by Bluesma


Katie Byron is not someone I would recommend personally but it was an example of challenging thoughts and beliefs in action.
Unmani is much better at getting one to see the joke of thought but much deeper.

Do you think your mother (being a psychotherapist) would consider herself to be a teacher?

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by Bluesma

 

Katie Byron is not someone I would recommend personally but it was an example of challenging thoughts and beliefs in action.
Unmani is much better at getting one to see the joke of thought but much deeper.

Do you think your mother (being a psychotherapist) would consider herself to be a teacher?

(she is dead now) Because she also taught university courses and authored text books for university courses, I know she did. Though she would deny being in a teaching position whilst in a therapy session, one of the criticisms I have heard (even from her husband) is that she had difficulty remaining neutral with her patients, despite being brilliant in many areas.

Originally posted by Bluesma

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by Bluesma

 

Katie Byron is not someone I would recommend personally but it was an example of challenging thoughts and beliefs in action.
Unmani is much better at getting one to see the joke of thought but much deeper.

Do you think your mother (being a psychotherapist) would consider herself to be a teacher?

(she is dead now) Because she also taught university courses and authored text books for university courses, I know she did. Though she would deny being in a teaching position whilst in a therapy session, one of the criticisms I have heard (even from her husband) is that she had difficulty remaining neutral with her patients, despite being brilliant in many areas.

I am not sure what you mean - do you mean by not being neutral that she was sort of trying to teach the clients or do you mean that she got involved emotionally with the clients issues and suffering?

Originally posted by Itisnowagain


I am not sure what you mean - do you mean by not being neutral that she was sort of trying to teach the clients or do you mean that she got involved emotionally with the clients issues and suffering?

I mean that she felt emotionally involved with her patients and their issues and suffering, and although she would not make the conscious decision to teach or lead them, she would subconsciously end up doing so with the same kinds of behaviors the woman in your video used. She had difficulty remaining objective and detached.

Originally posted by Bluesma

Originally posted by Manula

You story about that girl has nothing to do with CBT. CBT is not about being unrealistically stupid... its about knowing reality as it is but still be optimistic. Ill come back later...

Well, practitioners of CBT may vary in their personal judgments of what is an error in thought, and what is a correct thought. This example I bring up is linked to a particular system I am familiar withthat of my mother, a doctor of psychology and a psychotherapist. Much of her view was that optimistic or positive thinking has the effect of bringing about optimistic or positive events, through the subtle interactions of the individual with environment.

Like- a person believes truly that they are good at something, they will become so, (and their entourage will believe so too, being a further influencial force in bringing it into reality). Thus, much focus on positive re-enforcement and perception. Do not focus upon your weaknesses and faults, focus on your strengths and abilities, etc.

There may be some value to that, under certain circumstances, but it also can fail miserably, creating narcissists that are way out of touch with reality and others.

But again, I recognize that not all practioners of CBT wil hold the same ethical system of judgement on correct or incorrect thoughts- yours may be different. All the more reason I am not sure it is necessary to have a teacher who determines that- that is nothing more than a guru then, and no longer the neutral witness of a therapist.
I prefer the original idea of a therapist as one which walks with you as you find your own path and way, rather than one which leads the way and shows you theirs.
But that is just my own preference.

The therapist is helping the person to do the work, but the inner work is patients responsibility.
There is a difference between bad analysis and sticking to the good side of things.

If i am not good at something i will not lie to me, but i will see it as a positive thing, a challenge, something to conquer, i will let it be my fuel for action, a motivator, i will be confident and realistic about what i have to do to get better.

For me CBT is not illusion or idealism, its seeing the goodness that all events have, even if its hard to find, its always there.

I believe that life is about learning trough experience, every negative situation is good because hard times will make me wiser, will give me compassion, will make me know how it feels so that i don't do it to people. I cant know what positive is if I haven't lived the negative. Learning requires that I live hard times. To learn about courage I have to be afraid, to learn about love I have to hate, to learn about compassion I have to be insensible, to learn about strength I have to feel weak, to learn about power I have to feel powerless.

Every negative situation or feeling is trying to teach me about its opposite. This is CBT, the belief that all adversity is my teacher.

For me the basis of CBT is not being unreal, its believing in life with all my heart and always stick to the positive side of things. I have been too negative and i am tired of negative thoughts, negative beliefs and negative emotions.

I love life, I believe in life, and i know all adversity has a good purpose to it, no hard event will ever make me forget that. For me, this is CBT, positive thoughts, positive beliefs, positive feelings.

Of course pain and suffering is steel here once in a while, and i am glad it is, it makes me more human, more sensible, more compassionate, but positivity and love for life prevails.

Is this unreal or illusion? Not to me. Love for life and the belief that everything happens for a good reason, sustains me, supports me, this is real, this is my CBT.

reply to post by Manula


I have no objection to this belief system. I point out, however, that that IS a belief system, not a method of therapy.

This is really the axis of what I find objectionable about the current ways Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy is evolving. From a method of therapy, into a merger of a belief system, by those who consider their particular belief system is superior to others and should be applied and injected into others.

Even that, may not have anything inherently wrong with it as long as the receptors are made aware that this is the goal, so they know what they are giving permission for. This is where I personally would prefer that it be distinguished from psychotherapy techniques or methods.

In the same way the Scientologists have their auditing that is openly admitted to be associated with a particular belief system.

Originally posted by Bluesma
reply to post by Manula

 

I have no objection to this belief system. I point out, however, that that IS a belief system, not a method of therapy.

This is really the axis of what I find objectionable about the current ways Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy is evolving. From a method of therapy, into a merger of a belief system, by those who consider their particular belief system is superior to others and should be applied and injected into others.

Even that, may not have anything inherently wrong with it as long as the receptors are made aware that this is the goal, so they know what they are giving permission for. This is where I personally would prefer that it be distinguished from psychotherapy techniques or methods.

In the same way the Scientologists have their auditing that is openly admitted to be associated with a particular belief system.

I am no expert on CBT but from what ive read, it tells people do change to positive thoughts, positive judgments and positive beliefs, but each one of us has its own way of being positive, its not a one-fits all therapy because it respects individuality. Each person is a different world and what is considered positive to Joe may be seen and felt as negative to Jane and so on...

But i get your point, it has to respect the individuality and uniqueness of everyone otherwise its aggression to the self.

I agree.

reply to post by Manula



I have just watched this video and it was amazing. I thought I would share it with you.