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Islam: What the West Needs to Know (full documentary)

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posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 09:11 AM
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sk0rpi0n,

Over and over, day after day, your logic and arguments are consistently, "Well the Christians did so-and-so..... well the Jews believe such-and-such.... well the Hindus have done such and such...."

You constantly defend your religion by deflecting attention of the topic onto other religions.

Make a Jewish thread, make a Christian thread. But here and now we are discussing Islam and its flaws and its ugliness. Evil is evil, wrong is wrong, and oppression is oppression.

Just because other religions or other people do so-and-so does not justify it for you or Muslims. It means you, Muslims, and all those other religions that you contrast similarities with are wrong. Separation and superiority complexes spawned to help propagate religious war, murder, slavery, rape, and apostate killing is wrong in no matter what religion it is blanketed under.

Can you even defend or justify Islamic slavery, rape of slaves, or the finalized Medina-style attitude of hate, aggression, and murder of non-Muslims WITHOUT comparing it to other religions or other groups? Because I will rebut now; those other religions and other people that spread oppression, injustice, and suffering are wrong too.

Can you?

Peace.




edit on 7-6-2013 by Kgnow because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 09:12 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 



Okay, that's a double-fault then. You not only DIDN'T watch the OP video, you ALSO have not produced a counter-point video to refute it!

I don't have the time to watch a hour long documentary made by anti-Islamic people.
Please get more specific... what exactly is the issue that you want me to address? Post it and I'll find something for you.



FACT: Muslims in the world are being violent among each other, in EVERY PLACE that they are - and also toward the British, and Americans. They are disturbing the peace.

Oh and lets forget about all the Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan being killed by American / NATO forces.
Lets forget about how the West disturbs the peace in the middle east.... and focus on Muslims.



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 09:13 AM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


60 years ago doesn't change the fact that European / Americans have a history of bloodshed.
Theres a reason why the Nazis are reviled to this day. The fact that their evil was carried out 60 years ago doesn't mean anybody would kiss and make up with the Nazis.

Dude. The history of EVERY race and EVERY civilization includes bloodshed. And the Germans got their act together.

No one has said that 'no wars happened except Muslim wars'!!

ISLAM is STILL violent and not with the program. And 'the West' I have already pronounced as contributing to the problem by interfering and "aiding" rebels. So make a point. A REAL point.


edit on 7-6-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 09:14 AM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


"The west are savagely killing Muslims using hi-tech weapons.... NOW.. every day.... so the west is really in no position to accuse anybody of savage behavior.

Its not like Western bombs simply discharge glittering confetti while only bombs used by Muslim are lethal."

You are completely correct there mate Western nations should have never invaded and occupied your respective countries in the first place! Now that really was the media puppets and TPTB at play! WMDs my arse!

I do also agree, bombs don't discriminate!

You do realize that's our government's actions, not the people(Joe Public)!

Its not like we all get together on the fist of the month and decide who's next that would be TPTB(AKA Illuminati/black nobility)!

If you can find them, bomb them please! (Not you in particular Sk0rp0n just ranting a bit, its Friday!)

edit on 7-6-2013 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 09:17 AM
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reply to post by Kgnow
 



Over and over, day after day, your logic and arguments are consistently well the Christians did so-and-so..... well the Jews believe such-and-such.... well the Hindus have done such and such...."

I am not making such arguments at all. My posts are on record... so try not to put words in my mouth.
What I actually said regarding Hindus and Jews were examples in context to whatever wildtimes posted.

For example, wildtimes claiming Muslims want everybody to follow Shariah... is exposed as a nonsensical statement when we take the historical example of India which was ruled by Muslims for centuries, and yet remains largely a Hindu country. And its interesting how wildtimes doesn't want to talk about that anymore.



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 09:17 AM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


I have. And yes, you do have time, if you want to take umbrage to it, you need to WATCH IT. I even made the points in the OP that were of concern. You haven't addressed ANY of them adequately.

Kgnow is right.

If you WON'T watch it, then you have no real business being on this thread, because you're behaving like a little kid, and not contributing ANYTHING to back up your claim of "Islam" being "peaceful."



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 09:20 AM
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reply to post by andy06shake
 


I have also agreed to that, and stated it NUMEROUS TIMES - but Sk0rp is determined to make ME the bad guy, no matter what I say, or how many times I state that I hold Western intrusion and invasion as equally wrong!

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT for the Muslim apologists to stick to the point? For them to back up their stance with outside sources that effectively deny the views of people who see that Muslims are NOT peaceful en masse?


edit on 7-6-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 09:23 AM
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Ah another documentary show that some people more expert than muslim itself.
Saying that hadith is the only way to interpret Quran ( i wonder if they know that most hadith are fake and wonder how to know or how such like shahih hadith happend or approved ( by who anyway ) , i guess they have not learn bayan, mantiq etc)

And i guess they forgot about ijtihad, another source of islamic law. Cant see that they understand what hadith mean either, and what hadith by bukhari (or someone else ) mean and how the structure of it.
And saying that prophet Muhamad is very richsince move to madinah??? i wonder where that come from.

I guess i should leave the knowledge of islam to outsider then, beside some muslim now start believing them too, i was debating with these muslim for hours before this with the same thinking with documentary partly at least and use this kind of source to justified their believe, saying looks, even western non muslim understand islam more. More fuel for them.



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 09:27 AM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Rosinitiate
 


You can find hate and intolerance in all 3 faiths of Abraham. I guess I don't understand why the focus on Islam. Was it simply from the video you posted?

I'm educating myself on ALL major world religions. I've exhausted Christianity. I've covered Buddhism. I know some about Jews, but not enough yet to feel honestly "knowledgeable" about it.

I've studied Islam via the web, and texts by scholars and researchers - I am now addressing "regular" Muslims to find out more on a personal basis what the ATS Muslims think.

Next I'll move on to Hindu, I think.

WHY focus on Islam? Because World War Three is breaking out IN MUSLIM ZONES, and I'd like my children and their children to be SAFE from the rampant destruction and savagery I see going on in the Middle East and Africa.
That's why.


I think I have a much better understanding of the why(s) behind this post now, thank you.

Everyone has their own unique way of discerning truth. You appear to prefer the bottom/up approach and decided to enmesh yourself with the fundamentals of each religion. I admire you for that but I would also caution that videos and documentaries are one man/womens opinion and almost always slanted (if even slightly) to make their point. Reading the actual scriptures is obviously the way to go.

For me I tend to look beyond the 3 faiths of Abraham to attempt to get the whole picture. I can understand your concern having children and all and I also have a young child I care about deeply. I also understand that what is to happen whether is be WW3 or what have you, has already been determined. In the end it doesn't matter which God you chose to speak with...he listens. Not only that he/she helps in the most unpredictable of ways.

Truth be told I just had a direct encounter with Shiva over the past 2 days (although most people would simply roll there eyes here). Not at all what I was expecting but in hindsight I understand why he/she did what he/she did for me. For that, I will be eternally grateful for the tough love that was shown to me.



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 09:28 AM
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Okay, I'm going to try this ONE MORE TIME:

This is a re-post from page ONE of this thread:

I HOPE that by now anyone who reads my posts can see that I HONESTLY do not know who to believe.
I agree that the WEST should BUTT OUT of the Middle East altogether -
and I'm currently reading "Dirty Wars" by Jeremy Scahill -
it is a scathing piece of journalism about how Rumsfeld has usurped Government balance of power to promote violence and war over there. I believe this to be true.

Oddly, there is a clip of him in this documentary - also of Connie Rice - and it DOES "promote" intervention and stoppage by force. WITH WHICH I DISAGREE!!

Still, recent events (and ongoing ones) do lend one to be suspicious of anyone who is claiming "that isn't Islam" - because as far as we can tell, it IS Islam. I'd like to see or hear some "experts" that back up and explain the "real Islam" - have yet to find anyone but regular Muslims trying to do so -

therefore, I STILL DON'T KNOW what to think, and until I feel confident that I "know" (which I'm guessing at this point is going to prove IMPOSSIBLE), I will resist Islam AND I will resist the West going over there and making trouble.

It's a horrible mess. I'm VERY confused, and just doing my best to figure it out.
Thanks for your help.



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 09:31 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


Let the haters hate hen!

Have a beer and a smoke (If that's your thing, if not maybe a nice glass of wine.) and pray to Allah this sharia law crap never catches on in our respective nations!
LoL
edit on 7-6-2013 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 09:31 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 



ISLAM is STILL violent and not with the program. And 'the West' I have already pronounced as contributing to the problem by interfering and "aiding" rebels. So make a point. A REAL point.

Its interesting how you forget that the West is ALSO still violent.... and it didn't all end 60 years ago.
Its not just about aiding rebels... the West is still going about bombing innocents in Pakistan.

There was this amazing thread sometime back called Visualizing drone strikes in Pakistan. It was about the deaths of civilians caused by drones. (Strangely it received only ONE reply that too mine. )

So the West is in no position to talk about Islamic violence when the West is itself guilty of savagery.



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 09:36 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 



I even made the points in the OP that were of concern. You haven't addressed ANY of them adequately.


.... you're behaving like a little kid, and not contributing ANYTHING to back up your claim of "Islam" being "peaceful."


I did address the point in the OP about Islam wanting everybody to follow Shariah.
Why don't you back up your claim in the OP that Islam wants everybody to follow Shariah... first by explaining how India remains a hindu country despite the fact that they were under Muslim rule for centuries.

As for the video... why don't you give me a brief synopsis of the key points in the video. Like what are they talking about specifically? Maybe you won't because you know it wont be too hard for me to get a Muslim source dealing with that matter. Your call.



edit on 7-6-2013 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 09:37 AM
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*Double-Post*
edit on 7-6-2013 by Kgnow because: Double-post



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 09:38 AM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


Don't want to watch the OP video? I'll make it painfully easy for you. Discuss these points:


1. Muhammad preached peace in his weak beginnings in Mecca, and later developed the concepts of war, murder, and oppression of non-Muslims after he created a stronghold in Medina. From then on out it was jihad and conquer. In chronological order of Qur'anic revelation, Islam started peaceful and grew murderous and totalitarian. Islam was only based upon peace in the beginning.

2. Most wise, most compassionate, most merciful, and loving Allah never outlawed slavery nor the rape of slaves. Instead, Allah allows it and only says it is better to release them or it is better to treat them kind. Slavery and forced sex of slaves by their masters is less than "most compassionate". It should have been completely outlawed, not compromised.

3. Allah in the Qur'an changes his mind and contradicts himself and glosses it over with the concept of abrogation.

4. The Qur'anic Median hate, oppression, and murder of non-Muslims combined with End Time eschatological teachings of an all-encompassing war between the global Muslim collective versus non-Muslims makes it impossible to say Islam is a religion of peace, love, freedom, and liberty.


When Christians, Jews, Hindus, or "The West," or the north, south, east, or Americans, or Brist, or Nazis, or communists, or the crusades, or the mid-east socio-political war, or any human under any ideology commits oppression, murder, or suffering,.... IT IS WRONG. All of them are wrong for that.

Discuss please without comparing to others.

Peace.



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 09:41 AM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 



So in other words you read a book about books on the Abrahamic religions.
What about the Torah, Bible and the Koran... the original books on Abrahamic religions?
WHat about them???
THEY ARE ALL SUSPECT, because the Christians, Jews, and Muslims ALL have different "takes" on it.

I don't consider ANY OF THEM legitimate "history" or "factual" texts.

I prefer to read well-presented, evidence-based research with bibliographies and suggested reading, sources and footnotes. Not some dusty perverted translation of an ancient desert book that doesn't apply anymore orginally written in languages that are now dead or non-English.

I worked a a translator and interpreter - I know how important accuracy in translation is, and I KNOW that the modernized "versions" of those books are not "perfectly translated". Nor are they capable of being consistent. NOR do they have COMPLETE information.

This is ridiculous, and obviously futile.

It's like arguing with a second grader. Never mind then. :shk: I'll just keep looking and not bother asking "real Muslims" to show me honest research and expert scholars anymore. Since none of you can, this is a waste of time, for ME and for EVERYONE ELSE on here who is asking for answers to legitimate questions.



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 09:42 AM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


I DID!

THREE TIMES, AT LEAST!!


Okay, now you're just trolling.
Last chance, or you officially flunk out of this thread. F for Failure to oFfer inFormation.

FROM THE OP:
The film addresses how Islam is NOT just a "personal religion", and that the "moderate, peaceful" Muslims are (according to the presenters in the film) only 'pretending' - until the time they have enough numbers in place to IMPOSE Islam as a government and political system -

The film covers the Quran, the Hadith, the sequence of events starting with the "peaceful Islam" being at the very beginning of Mohammed's career in Mecca - and the violent Allahu Akbar thing that FOLLOWED it when he went to Medina. It is believed in Islam (according to the film) that the later "statements" by Muhammed OVERRIDE the original Peaceful ones, and these presenters explain it VERY WELL. NOTICE: I have CHANGED "experts" to "PRESENTERS", here

Islam is an all encompassing system of life, governing, AND religion - and they intend for it to be THE WHOLE WORLD. Those who "submit" to being inferior and controlled will be allowed to live in peace ONLY AFTER EVERYONE CLAIMS THEIR FAITH AS TRUE AND REAL. And then, if you don't convert, but only "submit" you are obliged to be a "second-class citizen" who grovels to Muslims like slaves or servants do to "masters or rulers."

They won't stop until they are done. They think Allah TOLD THEM - THE WHOLE WORLD!!!
They have no respect for anyone else's faith, and think it is their OBLIGATION to Allah to make EVERYONE obey Sharia, and DO AWAY with democracy.

They want to Dhimmitize the "infidels."

Now. I WANT TO SEE AN EDUCATED ACTUAL REBUTTAL OF ALL OF THOSE POINTS.


edit on 7-6-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 09:46 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


By continuously deflecting the points of discussion, and by constantly comparing other groups or people as a point of defense..... some are showing their inability to deal with facts and topics directly.

If the deflecting continues, I suggest that you no longer waste time repeating yourself. Your time is precious and valuable, if they will not discuss directly, ignore them and spend your time more toward mutual benefitting discussion.

Peace.



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
Okay, I'm going to try this ONE MORE TIME:

This is a re-post from page ONE of this thread:

I HOPE that by now anyone who reads my posts can see that I HONESTLY do not know who to believe.
I agree that the WEST should BUTT OUT of the Middle East altogether -
and I'm currently reading "Dirty Wars" by Jeremy Scahill -
it is a scathing piece of journalism about how Rumsfeld has usurped Government balance of power to promote violence and war over there. I believe this to be true.

Oddly, there is a clip of him in this documentary - also of Connie Rice - and it DOES "promote" intervention and stoppage by force. WITH WHICH I DISAGREE!!

Still, recent events (and ongoing ones) do lend one to be suspicious of anyone who is claiming "that isn't Islam" - because as far as we can tell, it IS Islam. I'd like to see or hear some "experts" that back up and explain the "real Islam" - have yet to find anyone but regular Muslims trying to do so -

therefore, I STILL DON'T KNOW what to think, and until I feel confident that I "know" (which I'm guessing at this point is going to prove IMPOSSIBLE), I will resist Islam AND I will resist the West going over there and making trouble.

It's a horrible mess. I'm VERY confused, and just doing my best to figure it out.
Thanks for your help.


It is not complicated as you think. If you ask me if islam is violent like what it show in the documentary, the answer is not.
If you ask me if there are violent muslim, the answer is yes since the begining.
If you ask me are there group within islamic world that have dogma that can be scary, violent, and out of date, the answer is yes. There are minority for now, and start expanding everywhere in late 90s.

So the problem is to know which is which rather than generalize them. Problem in middle east, western country got involved etc etc is no more than about power, control and money. Every side can use politic, or religion as a legal stamp. To know what the different between islam and muslim might not too hard, but to know what is islam is not an easy job, with so much info and sect.



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 09:51 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 





Now SHOW ME who is to be regarded as an HONEST academic!! I can: Karen Armstrong. But you still haven't read her book, have you!? No. You haven't. And I bet you won't, because it might be disillusioning for you in your "happy perfect Islam" worldview.

you are high on assumptions wildtimes, i have watched the videos you posted long back and again yesterday, did u watch the video of Hamza Yusuf i posted??

I have the book you are talking about, its just very boring to read and i have many books waiting to be read.
I have posted this video of karen Armstrong before too and i want you to comment on it, its just few mins



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