Islam: What the West Needs to Know (full documentary)

Originally posted by maddog3n8
reply to post by undo

 

Interesting....I have not heard that take on the Old Testament...do you have a source I could look into?

depends which part you refer to? as far as noah's flood being partially a reference to the black sea flood, well just look up the black sea flood. it's agreed upon history and fits the references in genesis 6 as far as stuffing a few barn animals on a boat. as far as the ice age, well it's agreed upon history. hehe.
what part you do you want me to verify for you?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Ok...you don't want to talk like a normal human being...fine!!

As stated...the Holy Trinity is a dogma of both the Catholic and Protestant Churches...it was developed by the Apostles and Nicence Creeds during the Council of Trent...however, there is no reference to the Holy Trinity in the Bible. That does not negate that Christ stated that he was the Son of God in Matthew....nor does it negate his statements in the Gospel that he was the Son fo God!!!

However, you clearly do not want to acknowledge that the Catholics and Protestants believe that Christ was the Son of God...this is the foundation for Christianity.....which means he was part of the Holy Trinity...the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost... are you being a frakking moron purposefully....cause if you don't know anything about Christianity...then you should probably keep your teeth together....are you telling me that you have never heard of genuflecting...have you never heard of the Benediction? Report me to the mods again...I don't care!!! You are a simple troll that refuse to defend you position!!!!

You still haven't defended your position...cause you refuse to watch the video...again I ask...how can you defend what was said...when you don't know what was said?

The simple answer is that you can't!!!

part 2
www.youtube.com...

part 3
www.youtube.com...

part 4
www.youtube.com...

part 5
www.youtube.com...

ancient sumer was found buried under 8ft of flood silt.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Mclaneinc

 

And then the very important people, the NORMAL Muslims... These are the proper core we need to understand, these are people who look at the book and have evolved, they refuse the bad parts and follow merely the good and intelligent parts which ARE in the Quran. They integrate, they still follow their faith as a thing of peace and understanding. They live in what would be classed as foreign countries and adapt to the countries laws and ways while having their faith that they do not lose.

so the only normal muslims are the ones who have made their religion just an identity sake thing like the christians?
And anyone who practices islam fully is a radical and waiting to get to you to do their duty of killing an infidel? Really?

Erm its sad to say that people who support the whole radical ideal also agree with the attacks on NON Muslims, I never said they will act on it but they by following the radical side do agree with the death of non Muslims, like it or not. If you FULLY practice Islam including the man made verses I'm afraid you are radical and follow the violent ideals.

Don't take my word, ask a Radical..

Ordinary Muslims can quite happily learn about the whole of Islam but it does not mean they must follow it and many simply do the right thing and pick and choose which is both sensible and evolved. And please, I'm not watering down their faith, they still totally believe in Allah etc but they simply use it as a force for good in their lives and to that I praise them fully.

reply to post by wildtimes


Thank you for your kind comments, I travel these forums not for points or recognition but simply to add what I think and on the subject of Islam I have a good knowledge and common sense approach.

There are too may PC people looking to hijack stuff and put a shield over Islam and there are also just as many ultra radicals who use threads like these to spew hate as well as the EDL types who counter with hate, very few people actually bother to look at the Muslim people and see what they actually think.

Like all other walks of life and religions they have their loons as well as good people, Muslim does not mean mad bomber...Shame people still think like this, add radical to it and then things change a lot but even radicals are not all mad bombers, they often simply want something that is contrary to what our culture and identity loves, its not right but not always a violent thing but the ideal to do it IS there.

Originally posted by charles1952
I think I'm sorry you started this thread, wildtimes. I don't fault your original concept or goal, but rather the results which you couldn't forsee.

I will keep this in the first person for I know not how others took it. I saw the counter arguments as weak and evasive, even the lengthy one which was presented most recently in the thread, although that one was more in depth and serious.

I assume the Muslims on ATS are a reasonable sample of the Muslims I might run into on a daily basis. My impression has not been improved by their efforts.

I was hoping to find a willingness for peace. The proposed speech calling for peace by a hypothetical Muslim leader was brushed aside. The insistence that Muhammad is a model for all time does not speak well for peace chances as he ordered or participated in 100 raids, attacks, battles, and assasinations resulting in at least a thousand deaths and probably many more uncounted.
en.wikipedia.org...

My impression is that Muslims are uncertain of the validity of their faith at the intellectual level, and have become overly defensive, making conversation difficult. Of course, another possibility is, that as a rebuttal stated, there are over 200 sects of Islam, so one can find any belief that fits the situation and call that interpretation Islam.

I really want peace, understanding and reasonable discussion on this topic, despite what anyone might think. I just don't know where to find someone willing to do it.

I think Wildtimes did good by starting this thread.
Muslims on ATS have done their best and have recieved positive response from a few reasonable people.
Mechanics(sorry for the spelling) did a great job by posting the rebuttal.

The thread has revealed the bigotry of the bigots who persistently refuse to correct their misunderstanding about Islam, Qur'an and Muhammad pbuh and rather demand the muslims leave their views and give a bigot pleasing speech of peace. Peace does not mean to agree with untrue things. Muslims don't need to please bigots or to be acknowledged or starred, muslims just put their understanding out in the posts and even if one member got to know Islam a bit more, its Worth it!

reply to post by maddog3n8

However, you clearly do not want to acknowledge that the Catholics and Protestants believe that Christ was the Son of God...this is the foundation for Christianity.....which means he was part of the Holy Trinity...the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost... are you being a frakking moron purposefully...

Not saying that the protestants and catholics don't acknowledge Jesus as the son of God and part of the trinity... just that the actual texts say something else. Its clear you are experiencing trouble comprehending what I am saying.

This isn't about Christian dogma

It isn't... but this was brought up and I recall suggesting it made for a separate discussion.

Originally posted by maddog3n8
reply to post by logical7

 

Answer a question with a question is evasion!!! Plain and simple!!! If it is so nonsense, then take the time, like everyone else did, watch the video, and debunk what is being said!!! It's your religion!!! If it was my religion and someone was misrepresenting it; I think I would take the time to watch the video, so that I know what was said and so that I could point out how it was wrong!! You haven't done so because you know what was said is verbatim in context!

do you just snap at everyone? Have you even read all my replies in the thread? If you did, you would not be asking me to "watch the video" i said that in my reply, its on the 1st page!!
Read all my replies and then get back to me and you'l not say what you said above.
Thanks.

reply to post by charles1952

So, in his view, Sharia laws are wrong, suicide bombings are wrong, and mistreatment of non-Muslims is wrong. Not just wrong but against the religion itself. My problem is that this view doesn't seem to be adopted by Muslims in the world today. Who will bring today's Muslims back to proper behavior?

muslims back to proper behaviour? Charles do you think majority muslims want to wrong and kill others?
You are just shown the kind of people that don't follow Islam completely or not at all because it furthers a cause to dehumanise all muslims making it easy to get approval to attack and kill them.

If you knew muslims for real, you'l be on the streets to protest against each innocent muslim dying in a drone strike!

I just found a respectable Muslim voice of reason that helps me understand what members here are trying to get across.
How Muslims should Respond to Terror by FAREED ZAKARIA (CNN commentator and prolific defender/instructor to moderate, educated Muslims)

The Muslim Council of Britain issued an unequivocal statement condemning the latest killing, supporting British soldiers, and urging the police to do whatever it needed to, unhindered and unhampered. That is precisely the kind of statement all leaders of Muslim communities need to make whenever one of these kinds of attacks takes place.

I understand the feeling that some have that they should not be held responsible for the actions of a few perverted madmen. But the trouble is that these madmen claim that they are killing in the name of Islam and someone has to refute their claims – as often as they make them.

...
I wish Muslim leaders would make the point that British – and American and other allied soldiers – are in Afghanistan at the invitation of the democratically elected government of that country. They are defending that government and Muslims every day from terrorist attacks and insurgent warfare. If these people want to protest the killing of Muslims, they should direct their wrath at the Taliban and al Qaeda and other jihadi groups because they are the ones who are killing Muslims and many others.
We need to hear this message more often and more loudly.

Exactly what charles and I have been asking for - and I'm very happy to see it is not a message falling on deaf ears.

I wonder why none of our Muslim members pointed out this very prominent Muslim journalist's work to defend them?

Perhaps they haven't heard of him? I don't know.

If you all are still even remotely interested in dissecting this hideous and very real situation, I hope you'll read the short op-ed piece and realize that I believe you when you say "they are not real Muslims" - my objection is that they are still behaving like beasts, and my suggestions has been that The Muslim Leadership NEEDS TO TELL THEM TO STOP IT.

Thanks, Mr Zakaria. You have calmed me.

And another calm, educated opinion by someone else:

How terrorism has evolved

By Jeffrey N DeMarco, Special to CNN
Editor’s note: Jeffrey DeMarco is a lecturer in Criminology at Kingston University and research associate with the Centre of Criminology and Sociology at Royal Holloway, University of London. The views expressed are his own.

He makes the excellent point that our foreign policies DO affect the behaviors of radical terrorist Muslims.
I entirely agree.

Here we are again. An attack. A metropolis. A sensational depiction of violence. A Western victim. These are the thematic artifacts of our current (British) understanding of the “War on Terror.” Regardless of the venue, the perpetrator, or the modus operandi we reach an ultimate conclusion: Islamic jihadists. Full stop. The drawn out era of conflict post-9/11 has limited our already narrow understanding of a worldwide conflict fuelled by our incomprehension of “another.” The “War on Terror,” meanwhile, has evolved.
...
The purpose of terrorism is not, contrary to popular belief, to terminate the maximum number of lives. Instead, the goal is the installation of fear and uncertainty amongst the populace. Al Qaeda’s influence is not about direct contact – the group’s mere existence is intoxicating, given the appropriate channels.
The intricate structure of contemporary Islamic intifada is actually a product of popular discourse. Our “enemies” are our own creation. Yes, the self-radicalized terrorist is a real threat, but it is one produced by none other than our own foreign policy.

So. There. Both points I've been trying to make. Foreign policy IS a problem, and Muslim leadership DOES need to publicly denounce terrorism as NOT ISLAM. Maybe they're finally picking up steam. Finally.
Thanks whatever higher-power is inspiring this.

Intelligence, thoughtful problem dissection, deconstruction, and resolution suggestions, ALL came into our view from the minds of PEOPLE - just like religion does, all over the world.

I want to again thank everyone who participated. The documentary in the OP -- and the speakers therin -- ARE undermining the peace process, from an angle that IS frightening. Likewise are the military "special ops" drone strikes, overt AND covert operations that are just as terrorist as any bombing or feeding guns to rebel warriors. I want to assure those joining me in placing blame where it is due - on foreign policy makers working outside government structure - with very little oversight - and actually very little Pentagon knowledge! - AND on radical terrorists out of control and violent -- that I condemn ALL of it.

VERY FEW AMERICANS are even aware of the "real" special ops story.

Now I'm concerned again, Mr Zakaria. Are you just toeing the government PR line? You may THINK that the troops are there by request - and MOST OF THEM ARE - but there are ALSO secret troops and operatives working to undermine true "geneva convention style" conflicts.

Killing is wrong. Lying and sneaking around under the radar with an intent to kill is ALSO wrong.

I condemn the knee-jerk, maniacal actions of Rumsfeld and the Bush administration AND the ongoing covert ops that Obama has duplicitously backed while "talking" about peace and freedom. The "War on Terror" is backfiring into a War OF Terror, both abroad, and here at home.

MR PRESIDENT:
STOP the covert OPS. DO NOT supply arms or ammo to rebels. DO NOT drone-target ANYONE. KNOCK IT OFF... Shame on you. Shame. You should be removed from office, and McCain with you. Shame on locking Congress out of the info loop - and SHAME on Congress for lame 'legislating'. Don't tell us "you didn't know" because I believe you do know, and are going along with it.

SHAME ON WASHINGTON D.C. All of you perpetuating this, either by complicity or covert collusion, every single day - every single one of you - in the administration, JSCOC, the FBI, CIA, and NSA should be arrested for high treason, crimes against humanity, and left to rot until you die of old age getting stale bread crusts and water only.
Your predecessors should be arrested as well. You are war lords, and that is NOT what the American people want.

Monsters, the lot of you. Either that, or absolutely incompetent, unaware naive tools.

No excuses for it. You have manipulated, lied to, and doomed us all, and we are becoming more and more collectively PISSED OFF.

There, put me on a no-fly list, track my web activities, take away my birthday and put me on house arrest, I don't care. You are doing EVIL. You are in bed with bankers and warmongers, and you all make me sick.

/rant for today

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by maddog3n8

 

that the Christian dogma was the Jesus is God...the Son of God...part of the Holy Trinity...do I believe that...no...but he was asserting the Bible said otherwise.

Christian dogma does not exactly reflect what the Bible actually says. Jesus never said he was God and he never said he was a part of any Holy Trinity either. But this is a completely different subject anyway.

I clearly understand who the enemy in our world is. It is Islam and has been for over 1400 years. I find it ironic that some actually believe that Islam is a Religion, when in fact it is a political organization, which violates most morays of Western Civilization.

If you really are serious about understanding the interpretation of the Qu'ran listen to the four lectures by Ann Barnhardt on Islam, on youtube.

She has had death threats from these nimrods, but I think if they want to venture West of the Mississippi out here to Gods Country, we have a few empty wells we can drop them in.

What they do not understand is that Ameri-cans will do what is necessary if forced to do so; as evidenced by the extermination of the Plains Indians, and the dropping of the atomic bomb in WWII. Almost every country in this world that is in turmoil is because of Islamic activists and beliefs. When we find rattlesnakes in our back yard we eliminate them, and we are in fact doing them a favor and fulfilling their dream of death over life.

You see if the kill and Infidel, or is killed by an Infidel the get a free ticket into Paradise where they can recline at the left hand of Mohammed, and where every request must be fulfilled. For all the Islamic lovers, I wonder if you carry your Daniel Pearl pocket knife proudly. Adios Amigos. John

reply to post by Faust100f

I clearly understand who the enemy in our world is. It is Islam and has been for over 1400 years.

yes, Islam came as a challenge to the sick aims of the church to impose a universal religion by force. Islam liberated the minority religions who were persecuted under christian rule and established freedom of religion and social justice.
Secularism came much later and just removed God and religion completely as a reaction to the oppressive christian rule.
The 1st enemy of christiandom was Islam as it brutally thwarted their dreams and the 2nd enemy was secularism which has now made religion nothing more than a thing to show some identity.

Islam managed to balance religion and freedom without compromising social justice by putting strict social and moral laws and teachings demanding individuals to show responsibility while exercising freedom and not run amok by being high of freedom!

reply to post by wildtimes

So. There. Both points I've been trying to make. Foreign policy IS a problem, and Muslim leadership DOES need to publicly denounce terrorism as NOT ISLAM. Maybe they're finally picking up steam. Finally. Thanks whatever higher-power is inspiring this. Intelligence, thoughtful problem dissection, deconstruction, and resolution suggestions, ALL came into our view from the minds of PEOPLE - just like religion does, all over the world. I want to again thank everyone who participated. The documentary in the OP -- and the speakers therin -- ARE undermining the peace process, from an angle that IS frightening. Likewise are the military "special ops" drone strikes, overt operations that are just as terrorist as any bombing or feeding guns to rebel warriors.

I Really appreciate this!
Its satisfying that the efforts put into this thread by everyone have actually begin showing positive results.

A terrorist is born due to injustice and oppression not because a Holy Book commands it.
Qur'an commands not to tolerate oppression and fight only till there is no more oppression and justice prevails anything beyond that is aggression and Allah condemns it.

The western policy portray all violence as terrorism while majority is just muslims "fighting back"
the acts done in Boston and UK recently are condemned strongly as completely wrong by almost all muslims(sadly a few support it because they feel its payback but fail to realise that two wrongs don't make a right and islam condemns it)

O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allah, witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah; indeed,
Allah is Acquainted with what you do. [5:8]

Its good to see that you are now seeing both point of views and it got integrated to give a higher truth.

reply to post by logical7


Right. Quite.
Good. Cool. Whew.

Now.....
we just have to get you to stop blaming "Western culture" and "lack of religion" for "immorality." Meet me halfway, at least. Because until you do, and acknowledge that "Westerners living peaceably among their communities, with their own "secular culture" are no THREAT to you and are NOT "going to hell" or immoral people, we still are at an impasse. I'm trying to respect your culture. TRY to respect mine, and stop vilifying us.

The religious zealot
"Real" Christians - who denounce organized faiths (but still go to mega-churches to hear non-seminarians "preach" a cherry-picked Armageddon-story), however, ARE a threat to you, and to Israel and relional peace.

We "peacenik new age hippies" ARE fighting to keep them from gaining power. Just as much as the Muslim extremists ARE a threat to you and TO US. I denounce them just as much as I do terrorist operatives. We are ALSO fighting to STOP the brutality in the name of Oil. It's NOT OUR OIL. So my admonishment to EVERYONE is:
be NICE, and treat others the way YOU want to be treated.

Have a great evening, logical7.

talk to you later on.

reply to post by Faust100f

I clearly understand who the enemy in our world is. It is Islam and has been for over 1400 years. I find it ironic that some actually believe that Islam is a Religion, when in fact it is a political organization, which violates most morays of Western Civilization.

Western civilization, not Islam.... caused world war 1 and 2.... colonized countries in South America, Asia, Africa and Australia... subjected the native populations to genocide..... used nuclear weapons... and continues to spread death and destruction in the middle east and Muslim nations.

So stop thinking you have the moral high ground over Islam... or anybody else for that matter... because you DON'T.

LOL

The Muslim Defense League is putting on a show for us ladies and gentlemen. Yes, Islam is out to save everyone from those evil Christians and secular folk......and hey, if you don't believe that tripe, we have us the heavy hand of Islam.....I am sure I could give you quotes from their Quran, but the typical crowd would say it was misinterpreted.

Hey, practitioners of Islam, the west doesn't want you to save us.

reply to post by MidnightTide

Hey, practitioners of Islam, the west doesn't want you to save us.

No one is trying to save the West. Even Jesus damns you. You are too doomed to be saved.
My point is that you don't have the moral high ground over anybody. So just think of the evils perpetrated by your people before you point fingers at anybody else.

Originally posted by MidnightTide
LOL

The Muslim Defense League is putting on a show for us ladies and gentlemen. Yes, Islam is out to save everyone from those evil Christians and secular folk......and hey, if you don't believe that tripe, we have us the heavy hand of Islam.....I am sure I could give you quotes from their Quran, but the typical crowd would say it was misinterpreted.

Hey, practitioners of Islam, the west doesn't want you to save us.

nobody can save anyone else! STOP imposing christian ideas on MDL!

What you do and think is with you and i am responsible for my actions and intentions.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0nYou are too doomed to be saved.
My point is that you don't have the moral high ground over anybody.

You'd have to work very hard to find anybody in a position where they're unable to hold the moral high ground over someone that just judged and condemned roughly half of the planet....