Islam: What the West Needs to Know (full documentary)

reply to post by charles1952


4.) People with similar prejudices will herald it as truth.

reply to post by KyrieEleison

Dear KyrieEleison,

4.) People with similar prejudices will herald it as truth.

Are you offering that as a criticism of the video? I was hoping someone could show that it was wrong.

Oh, well. I guess I nailed it.

I expect one of two courses for this thread. Either irrelevant objections will be made, or it will be ignored.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


I suppose you did not read the entire thread. Why re-invent the wheel?

I don't see you objecting to anyone else. Get that done first, then come to me with your version of events.

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Dear wildtimes,

Ok, I've watched the video and read the responses. The criticisms of the argument of the video seem to come in three forms.

1.) They're all paid shills, trying to make money,
2.) Other religions are just as bad, and
3.) There are just a few bad apples.

I expect one of two courses for this thread. Either irrelevant objections will be made, or it will be ignored.

With respect,
Charles1952

So you beleive every single muslim is like that? Do you think all white protestants like you are all good as well?

Isn't all this stating the obvious?

Muslims want to take over earth terra with Islam.

Christians would like the same with Christianity.

And Jews would see the same with Judaism.

This isn't surprising seeing how people tend to stick with like minded people...for obvious reasons. A Muslim isn't going to sit there and think to his/herself ..."hmm, my Muslim brothers are nice but you know, I think I'd rather surround myself with those good, decent Christian folk".

Ever since these three soul groups became forced to co-exist on the same world, dimensional plane there have been constant squabbles.

Ever hear of the lucifer experiment?

reply to post by Rosinitiate


Pretty much, Rosinitiate, which is why I feel dwelling on the obvious is a bit counterproductive. It becomes a bad beer commercial with both sides harping the same thing (Tastes great! No! Less Filling! *shoving ensues*) with no real furthering of understanding taking place.

It's why I wrote this thread as it succinctly sums up my take on these matters.

reply to post by charles1952

Originally posted by charles1952
Ok, I've watched the video and read the responses. The criticisms of the argument of the video seem to come in three forms.

1.) They're all paid shills, trying to make money,
2.) Other religions are just as bad, and
3.) There are just a few bad apples.

I expect one of two courses for this thread. Either irrelevant objections will be made, or it will be ignored.

Hey Charles!
Do you believe that pointing out that Walid Shoebat (used in the documentary as a "expert") is a liar (specifically on his claim of being an expert in Islam or terrorism or Islamic terrorism or extremism) and a fraudster (specifically in regards to his use of fear for his own personal gain) is an irrelevant objection? Surely his "expertise" on the matter is then null and void.


And now what follows IS somewhat an "irrelevant objection". I feel quite irritated with myself for having opened the video in the OP and having sat through even 5 minutes of it.

Starts off: Scare-mongering arabic chanting that isn't translated, could mean anything, and is basically there to set the tone, followed by a parade of obviously biased islamophobes. First off, Srđa Trifković, supporter of the Bosnian genocide. Oooh yes, I'm certain HE'S a totally unbiased voice in all of this. Next off, Robert Spencer, talking about how Islamic texts could be used to inspire violence (hmmm...interesting, isn't Robert Spencer the guy that that Norwegian terrorist said was his main inspiration for what he did?), then we have Bat Ye'or, who's only grown in popularity in the US with the recent wave of xenophobia and islamophobia. Her writings in the 80s about semetic history were laughed at in the academic circles IN ISRAEL. Then we have Walid Shoebat, who I've mentioned already. Conspicuously absent, at least 10 minutes in, is any Islamic scripture.

Now coming back to a somewhat more relevant objection: I hope you realise that none of these so-called experts have any authority on the subject that they speak of? They're not scholars of Islam, they have not studied it in any sort of academic level (probably not studied it at all). Yet they're lauded as being "experts" on Islam.

reply to post by Rosinitiate, KyrieEleison, and LastStarfighter.

Gentlemen (and Ladies, if appropriate),

I hope you don't mind a quick review. Wildtimes started a thread with videos containing information from the Koran, Haddiths, history and current events. I (and she, I believe) would like to know if these facts are correct.

After reading the thread I saw three objections to the video being offered. I listed them thus:
1.) They're all paid shills, trying to make money,
2.) Other religions are just as bad, and
3.) There are just a few bad apples.

Rosinitiate presents this argument:

Muslims want to take over earth terra with Islam.

Christians would like the same with Christianity.

And Jews would see the same with Judaism.

Which, of course, is the same as Objection #2, above. The video disagrees, claiming that Islam is the only religion teaching the death or subjugation of non-believers. That position is supported, in the video, by quotes from the religious books of Islam and its history.

LastStarfighter offers this:

So you beleive every single muslim is like that? Do you think all white protestants like you are all good as well?

Which has nothing to do with the video at all. Further, I never claimed anything remotely like that.

Finally, KyrieElison suggests this as an argument (?):

I suppose you did not read the entire thread. Why re-invent the wheel?

I don't see you objecting to anyone else. Get that done first, then come to me with your version of events.

Yes of course, I've read the entire thread; I'm not objecting to you or anyone else, just arguments; and why does my version of events have anything to do with anything? We're supposed to be talking about the videos and the ideas expressed therein.

Is there no one who can contradict the videos? Or at least discuss them instead of wasting space on irrelevancies?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by wildtimes


S+F

Its late here, so i'm not going to watch the video now but I will try watch it tmrw. The only problem is i tend to get angry when I watch this kind of thing.

And like you, I am also Skeptical about 'Islam' and most Muslims TBH. I don't know what to think... who to believe. There are many different branches of 'Islam' too.... why so many branches if they all want the same end result?

Is that just to cause confusion for those who aren't 'Muslim'?

Originally posted by charles1952
The video disagrees, claiming that Islam is the only religion teaching the death or subjugation of non-believers.

Ok, for starters explain the Crusades and the belief structure that went behind it.

Kill them all and let God sort them out, right?

Here's another reference against the whole "Islam is the only religion teaching subjugation" thing, in fact, other religions support the subjugation of those who believe too - this is right from Wikipedia, anyone can look this up, I'm not sure why I have to but w/e.

Walid Shoebat may be discredited, but the documentary with his clips and clips of numerous others has given a sound an honest exposé.

It is true that Muhammad preached peace during Islam's beginnings in Mecca, and then ordered war, hostility, and murder of non-Muslims in the Arabian peninsula after creating a stronghold in Medina.

It is true that Allah in the Qur'an changes his mind about things and contradicts himself, then white-washes it with the concept of abrogation.

Shortly before his death, Muhammad said that Allah declared, "This day I have perfected your religion...."
He never abrogated slavery. That is a huge red flag. If Allah is most merciful, most compassionate, most wise, and loving, surely he would have had the COMPASSION to utterly destroy the concept of slavery and the rape of them. Instead he simply said it was "better" to free slaves if you want to and said masters can have sex with "whom their right hand possesses".

Furthermore, a Muslim is not allowed to reject a single word of the Qur'an, because if they do, Allah counts this as disbelief. Such totalitarianistic edicts!

Islam's ideology is not perfect in the least.


Peace.

Originally posted by babloyi
The documentary features Walid Shoebat? Yeah, before I invest almost 2 hours of my time, I gotta say, it is basically "debunked" right there. You can check the wiki page for him to see he's a basically a liar (he claimed to have bombed some bank in Israel, yet the bank itself AND Israeli authorities say that any such bombing never occured) and defrauder (he's taken tax money from the government to give lectures to secuirty forces based off his supposed "expertise", and he gets money from the public claiming it for charity, yet there is no charity registered by him, and he lied about having it registered. Heck, the simplest debunking of this character is just this: If he really WAS a terrorist who performed such terrorist activities, why on earth would he be freely parading around the US giving his hate-filled speeches, rather than be behind bars or extradited to Israel to be behind bars THERE? Because he "Saw the light and converted and stopped being a terrorist"? Suuuure, that would work

.
Thanks for saving me from wasting my time

www.jpost.com...
edition.cnn.com...
www.washingtonpost.com...

What the West Needs to Know: There are charlatans and hucksters who want to drum up and make money off your fear- Don't fall for it!
I authored a thread about these people ages ago you might want to check out:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

edit on 6-6-2013 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

reply to post by babloyi

Dear babloyi,

I have a fair amount of respect for you, and since you're kind of touching on the video, you deserve an answer.

Do you believe that pointing out that Walid Shoebat (used in the documentary as a "expert") is a liar (specifically on his claim of being an expert in Islam or terrorism or Islamic terrorism or extremism) and a fraudster (specifically in regards to his use of fear to make money) is an irrelevant objection?
Surely his "expertise" on the matter is then null and void.

But, is he a liar? Yes, I watched the CNN interview and it raised questions. Mr. Shoebat then answered those questions in his rebuttal. In the light of this rebuttal, CNN's allegations seem weak and unconvincing.
shoebat.com...

But more important than that, there were several people in the video with the same message, the Luton video doesn't mention him at all, and the interpretation of Islamic teachings (which is what the video was about) isn't related to terrorism expertise.

But this is not a thread about Shoebat.

Please, again. Instead of attacking one of the messengers, what are the significant errors in the two videos which make them false?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by Kgnow

Dear Kgnow,

Thank you, I am grateful.

When I read the thread and watched the videos I saw that this was too important an issue to brush under the rug with irrelevant noises.

I don't care whether someone agrees or disagrees with the OP, I want to know whether the facts are right. If I've got the facts, I can reach a reasonable conclusion, but avoiding dealing with the facts does no one any good.

So thank you for looking at the facts involved.

With respect,
Charles1952

You know I am completely and utterly convinced that the Jehovahs and the Mormons have shares in the battery company -they ring my door bell so often they keep wearing it out.

Determined they are, been at it almost 30 years (at my door alone) and curiously at every house I ever lived in - I never invited them. The Mormons even keep record cards of our household (names, names of my children, jobs, interests and any odd jobs I may need doing while they're trying to convert me - I kid you not - they've offered to trim my hedge.)

Not once, in all of my 46 years, has any Muslim I have known or met ever tried to convert me to their religion - and they most certainly never came to my door uninvited with a Quran in their hand,

That's just my life experience.

Originally posted by charles1952
But, is he a liar? Yes, I watched the CNN interview and it raised questions. Mr. Shoebat then answered those questions in his rebuttal. In the light of this rebuttal, CNN's allegations seem weak and unconvincing.
shoebat.com...

Fair enough. You consider the jpost and CNN interview to be weak and unconvincing, I find his hilarious attempts to cover up being caught out to be weak and unconvincing. Personally, I'd trust the Bank and the Government that the Bank works under, who say no such attack occurred at the time he claimed it did, vs the guy who claims he bombed it, then says that he doesn't remember, then says he was thankful when he read later that night that the bomb hadn't hurt anyone, then says later that he was in hiding and hadn't read any reports on the bomb. And again, most telling is the fact that he isn't behind bars. Having a "change of heart" (or a "change of spirit" in this case) doesn't absolve you of your crimes.

Originally posted by charles1952
But more important than that, there were several people in the video with the same message, the Luton video doesn't mention him at all, and the interpretation of Islamic teachings (which is what the video was about) isn't related to terrorism expertise.

Which Luton video? The 4 minute, cleverly edited one in the 2nd post of this thread? Or the original "documentary" that that clip was culled from? I've seen the original, and although I still kinda consider it a personal fluff piece rather than any sort of investigative reporting, it tells me that this fringe is exactly that- an extremist fringe, and not the mainstream, with less than 100 people at that protest, supposedly the entirety of this "Al-Muhajiron's" following, that had to be called in from all over, vs 30,000 muslims in Luton. That makes them....what....less than 0.33%? Hardly indicative of the whole.

Originally posted by charles1952
Please, again. Instead of attacking one of the messengers, what are the significant errors in the two videos which make them false?

Significant errors? About every word out of those so-called "experts" that I saw in the first 10 minutes of the video.

All this Islamaphobia is nonsense.

Islam will not take over the world.

The people in Islamic countries are weak.

The next dominant religion will be Taoism.

People are barking up the wrong tree.

Taoists have all the intellectual power and manufacturing infrastructure already in place to dominate all things in the future.

Forget Islam, prepare for Taoism.

Islam makes the most noise. Watch the silent ones. No one seems to be pushing Taoism on anyone, and yet, we're all falling for their products.

What have you bought from Islam recently, other than Oil?

You have Islam in your gas tank, but inside your home and offices, it's all Tao.

Wake up to the silent truth.

Tao rules.

Robert Spencer this man has made his living whining about Islam.

Spencer co-founded Stop Islamization of America (SIOA) and the Freedom Defense Initiative (FDI) with Pamela Geller in 2010. Both organizations are designated as hate groups by the Anti-defamation league and the Southern Poverty Law Center.

You know you have a problem when Jewish organizations starts pointing your antisemitism towards Muslims.

In the Summer 2011 issue of Intelligence Report, published by the SPLC, Robert Steinback listed Spencer as a member of the "anti-Muslim inner circle", noting that "Spencer has been known to fraternize with European racists and neo-fascists, though he says such contacts were merely incidental.

Abraham Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) called Spencer and Geller American anti-Muslim writers because their writings "promote a conspiratorial anti-Muslim agenda under the pretext of fighting radical Islam. This belief system parallels the creation of an ideological — and far more deadly — form of anti-Semitism in the late 19th and early 20th centuries." He continued, "we must always be wary of those whose love for the Jewish people is born out of hatred of Muslims or Arabs."
In an October 2010 news article, an investigative report by The Tennessean described Spencer as one of several individuals who "...cash in on spreading hate and fear about Islam." Tennessean investigation concluded "IRS filings from 2008 show that Robert Spencer earned $132,537 from the David Horowitz Freedom Center, and Horowitz pocketed over $400,000 for himself in just one year".

There is money in spreading hate.

Serge Trifkovic this guy is such a racist that Canada wouldn't even let him in their country.

Bat Ye’or

is not a scholar; she does not have the credentials of a historian from any recognized university. She is referred to as an “independent researcher,” a euphemism for a random person who goes to the library, opens up some books, and starts writing.

Bat Ye’or: Anti-Muslim Loon with a Crazy Conspiracy Theory Named “Eurabia”

Walid Shoebat

CNN’s Jerusalem bureau went to great lengths trying to verify Shoebat’s story. The Tel Aviv headquarters of Bank Leumi had no record of a firebombing at its now-demolished Bethlehem branch. Israeli police had no record of the bombing, and the prison where Shoebat says he was held “for a few weeks” for inciting anti-Israel demonstrations says it has no record of him being incarcerated there either.

He said his own family has vouched for his prison time. But relatives CNN spoke to described him as a “regular kid” who left home at 18, eventually becoming a computer programmer in the United States.

“Now, we aren’t saying every single mosque is potential terrorist headquarters. But if you look at certain reports by the Hudson report, 80 percent of mosques they found pamphlets and education on jihad. So they’re in the mosque, the mosque in accordance to the Muslim brotherhood is the command post and center.” The conservative Hudson Institute said it never issued such a report and has no idea why its name was invoked.

Congrats OP you found and posted a video about Islam that was made by well known racist, lairs and Islamophobes good job.

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Dear wildtimes,

Ok, I've watched the video and read the responses. The criticisms of the argument of the video seem to come in three forms.

1.) They're all paid shills, trying to make money,
2.) Other religions are just as bad, and
3.) There are just a few bad apples.

I expect one of two courses for this thread. Either irrelevant objections will be made, or it will be ignored.

With respect,
Charles1952

Hi charles1952

Your an intelligent fellow, well that is the impression I get from reading a lot of your posts over time. Anyways I would like to ask you this question.

Do you believe in human rights?

Because if you do it does not matter if a murderer,terrorist,rapist or any other nasty kind of person you can think of... is a muslim does it?
What should matter is that they broke our laws and ideals and should be punished accordingly, am I right?

Article 2 of The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

•Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

These threads always bring a smile to my face because the fact is we don't need to change anything. Just inforce the laws we already have.

I will watch the video tomorrow as it's late here in the UK and I'll comment on it then... I'm sure I've seen it before but I'd rather watch it again rather than look like a fool

reply to post by KingErik


The empty vessel makes the most noise

I don't believe you though

MSM tells me otherwise