Islam: What the West Needs to Know (full documentary)

reply to post by LABTECH767


Thanks for your honesty and response.

We have a real 'continuum' of folks on here, and I think that's a GOOD thing.

I was brought up to NOT be bigoted, racist, or prejudiced, from the time I was a little kid.
I REMAIN unprejudiced; and I hate NO ONE.

I am frightened. And anyone who can't understand why, who also pays attention to world events, should be, too.
I don't think that all Muslims are EVIL - I don't think that AT ALL.

But I do feel that 'fighting over it' is getting out of hand.
That goes for everyone: the Western military/industrial complex, the extremists of EVERY RELIGION, the leaders of the world, and ANYONE ELSE who is inflaming hatred.

These guys in the OP may very well be the equivalent of "Glenn Beck" or "Rush Limbaugh" or "John Hagee" instigators. If so, EVERYONE needs to know it, and to summarily IGNORE THEM.

'The West' also needs to BUTT OUT of local and civil issues if everything we're seeing is just "fanaticism gone berserk". The vid in the OP is PART OF why 'the West' feels it's necessary to "intervene." And I want it ALL TO STOP.

reply to post by andy06shake


Thanks, andy. You too are much appreciated on the thread.

Everyone is, really - as long as we keep it reasonably civil, maybe we're making some progress here.
(More than the UN manages to do, it seems!)

reply to post by logical7


You do not know me. Perhaps you should ask how and why I have drawn my conclusions of Islam instead of assuming that I am unlearned about Islam, or assuming I am ignorant about Islam, or assuming that I am taking a Judeo-Christian or Western view of Islam, or assuming that I am taking a biased view of Islam, or even your falsely perceived superiority of yourself above me in regards to Islam where I need your answers to my questions about Islam.

In mature, professional, and civilized discussion we discuss the facts on the table; not the character of the individual.

Although it has absolutely NO bearing upon mature discussion, I've read ajiza (30 sections: 1 section a day for 30 days) of Qur'an to complete it's reading in 30 days, month upon month, year upon year. I have lead the salah (prayer) in many different ummahs (Islamic communities). I have memorized vast portions of Qur'an, studying classical and modern arabic along with tajweed (pronunciation) and qira'at (school of recitation) striving to become a hafiz (one who completely memorized the Qur'an according to academic standards). I studied directly under sheikhs and muftis, not from the Internet or biased blogs.

Get the picture? I am an ex-Muslim. But this has absolutely no bearing on the topic if we stick to the facts and the points of discussion.

Assalaamu alaikum rah'matullahi wa'barakatu

reply to post by wildtimes


One thing I forgot to mention:

It is said in the Bible that if anyone adds to or changes the texts as they are written, they will be dealt with accordingly.

Note that it never says when, or how.

It's also worth mentioning that these books were indeed written by man, and as a translator I'm sure you are well familiar with how things can get misinterpreted, or how things can get slipped in, removed, changed, etc. over the years as the texts are handed down from generation to generation.

We also have to consider the possibility that, despite how holy some of these religious figures are portrayed, they are still very much human and are not immune from doing the things the rest of us sinners do - such as change something here & there to suit our own purposes.

This is how I interpret the underlying principle of discernment - if you truly do have love in your heart, you will immediately be suspect of anything that contradicts this regardless of who said it or where it is written.

God gave us something called a brain, and it is not a stretch to assume he fully intends for us to use them.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by andy06shake

 

Thanks, andy. You too are much appreciated on the thread.

Everyone is, really - as long as we keep it reasonably civil, maybe we're making some progress here.
(More than the UN manages to do, it seems!)

No problem, glad to contribute.

As to the topic of progress, well they do say hope springs eternal.

reply to post by logical7

I want you to make a post that clearly says that Islam teaches compassion and its some muslims who are not following it.

I've asked YOU to do that countless times. You keep SAYING it, but you don't show us any EVIDENCE of it, except telling us to "read the Qu'ran". I don't read arabic, and the Qu'ran itself was only mouth-to-mouth oral tradition for a LONG TIME - you show me how the current "versions" have been translated correctly - show me where the hadiths are wrong.

YOU SHOW ME!! The Burden of Proof is on you. I've presented my case, and you have consistently blown me off.

When more people stop sucking up to USA, the conflict will intensify more and you'l be told how the ME has become unstable and needs the use of nuclear option and you'l silently agree!
If you want to understand things then leave your strongly held opinions 1st.
Muslims are no more different than any other people, just their lands are unstable and war ridden right now.

I have tried to leave my opinion behind and ask the source directly - which are MODERN DAY, living muslims.

When they "stop sucking up" the conflict will intensify more? Yes, I bet it would.
Yes, the sunni/shia mess is 1,000 years old. You are 28 years old. Yet you tell me it's a religion of peace.

YES, the region is UNSTABLE - so, how is it that if people stop "sucking up to USA" it will THEN become unstable?

If you are suggesting that I 'go along' with Islam - and doing that will end the conflicts among the Muslim sects - then I don't know what to tell you. That is just insanely ridiculous.

Stop 'blaming' the other side and get your act together. ALL of you. Same to Christians & Jews who are calling for enhanced violence! Same to governments all over the world! Including the USA!

reply to post by andy06shake


Yeah, it helps to have a smoke and a beer to dull the edges of flame-burns on ATS, too.

Had to stop for more smokes and beer on my way home.

And here I am, on a beautiful spring day, in a peaceful neighborhood, feeling safe, but WORRIED about the world, my kids, and the planet. So, thanks again - for your ongoing contributions.
I need to get off of here again.

reply to post by KyrieEleison


Perfect. Awesome post. Thanks, Kyrie!

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by andy06shake

 

Yeah, you're right. I'm exhausted, and it's only 10 am.
So, I'm off of here - going to take my uncovered, educated head, with my bare face and arms out to shop, in a CAR, all by myself, visit the chiropractor, then come home and drink beer and smoke while I enjoy this late spring day. I anticipat being met with smiles by my doc and my shopkeepers.

Talk to you all, later.

Figure it out for yourselves, I give up. Slaughter everyone and each other, if that's what you wanna do.

Whatever. Just stay the hell away from me. Do it in your own goddamned backyards and streets and towns.
I'm tired of trying to help.

how are you helping exactly? By asking muslims on ATS to answer a propaganda video filled with islamophobia? When the "experts" in the video have been show to you by many posters as frauds and liars with no credentials to talk about Islam.
I gave you a video by a "real" sheikh(scholar) Hamza Yusuf and i am still waiting for you to watch it and comment.

Do you really want insights that will change you opinions and world view or just want confirmations for already made up views because i do see you agreeing with posters that have a typical western view of things. Thats not learning thats just seeking confirmation.

In you frustation you have shown that you really don't care if muslims live or die. Why should any muslim be answerable to you here on ATS or anywhere?
I actually don't like you coming in a self superior way demanding answers, nobody here is obliged to answer just because you show shock and concern about whats happening "THERE"!! and very honestly, you or me are helping none except understanding things a bit better.

I just expect that you show empathy for the people rather than paint them as savages, most have been pulled into a war that they don't want.
In Syria Women in burkhas and a gun, patrol the streets to defend their neighbourhoods as their husbands are fighting a war.

reply to post by Kgnow

Perhaps you should ask how and why I have drawn my conclusions of Islam instead of assuming that I am unlearned about Islam, or assuming I am ignorant about Islam, or assuming that I am taking a Judeo-Christian or Western view of Islam, or assuming that I am taking a biased view of Islam, or even your falsely perceived superiority of yourself above me in regards to Islam where I need your answers to my questions about Islam.

In mature, professional, and civilized discussion we discuss the facts on the table; not the character of the individual.

BRAVO!!!!

Go ahead, logical7, have a discussion with Kgnow. This should be very enlightening.
Finally. Awesome. I hope it happens.

reply to post by logical7

I just expect that you show empathy for the people rather than paint them as savages, most have been pulled into a war that they don't want.

Oh, please.
Really?

Have I not shown empathy? I'm beginning to feel powerless to do anything at all.
They ARE behaving like savages. I DID NOT start the war. I want peace, and you know it, and it really irritates me that you keep trying to portray me as an ignorant, callous 'Western heathen.'

At this point, you are simply trying to defame my character - and that is unfair.

How many times do I have to say "All of you, stop it!" for you to acknowledge that I want PEACE? That I have said so countless times? That I have been open and listened carefully and discussed with you for MONTHS now! And you are, once again, TURNING ON ME - fangs bared and claws out.

You are pretty good at being facetious. You don't recognize when someone gets so frustrated that they just say, "Fine! Do whatever you want!" then throw their hands in the air and give up??!!!
Really? SERIOUSLY?!!

How sad. How unfair and what a betrayal of good-faith.:shk:

Okay, guys and gals.
Seriously, I am logging off. I'm going to sit outside and CONTINUE reading about the "DIRTY WARS" that the US special ops are conducting that ARE inflaming hatred and exacerbating violence in the unstable region of the Middle East.

When I come back, I'll be more informed. And hopefully, find some discussion among other members that contributes something to the thread besides 'finger-pointing.'

Later, I will watch the vid that logical claims he posted (I must have missed it in my frustration and effort to keep up).

Stay safe, everyone. Don't do anything harmful or stupid.
Stay the course, hold the line, keep it all together.

WE ARE ATS

What the west needs to know about Islam is that it is just a religion like any other in the world.It has got the second largest followers right after Christianity....They worship the god of Abraham and Isaac the same god of Christians and Jews...Allah is just a different name for the same god....Moses and Jesus are mentioned in Koran several times with the most respect for what they have done for humanity and for god and the pain and suffering they went through for having their Ideas and believes...People also should know that there are fanatics and extremist Muslims who by no mean represent the whole Muslim community...Islam is a fair,just and a motivating religion and to everyone's surprise it is much less superstitious than any other religion...Islam also has been used as a mean of power for a lot of dictators throughout the history.....I am not a religious person at all,but if I wanted to be so I would have certainly consider Islam as one of my very few top choices.

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by Akragon
After watching this entire video...

All I can say is...

I have questions...

S&F

Hey Akragon!

SHOOT!!

I mean the questions, one at a time!

I suppose we should start with the last page...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by babloyi

 

I don't see anything in this video that says otherwise...

It basically says islam is evil...

I just learned that Mohammad told his people to lie in order to kill one of his opponents...

Is it true?

and what difference my reply will make?
A NO could just be a lie that i am saying as my religion commands

a muslim is allowed to lie when forced to give up his religion etc.

If a man holds a gun to my head and tells me to renounce Islam and have ham with a beer, i am allowed to do it and get away unhurt but rarely a muslim would actually use that flexibility. We muslims kind of have a stiff neck that only bows down to God not to a jerk with a gun or anyone else be it the best military in the world!

Fair enough... makes sense...

Now in your book it says that Mohammad told his followers to kill one of his opponents by any means... even if they needed to lie to do it...

How do you hold to a book where your prophet purposefully lies... admittedly to get their agenda accomplished?

There are many extreme edges that we can go , but I think that ATS is not very capable of.

Because ATS is a place where many ordinary people log in and they get excited. (I do believe I am one)

So , IMO next time consider this when you post a thread.

And I should add that these people who call themselves Muslims , shouldn't be trying to show Islam as a religion of Bullies otherwise it will discredit themselves ,too.

Because it is the bullies and hypocrites who kill stay low and start to kill people when they are strong.

Muhammad pbuh asked those who lived in Mecca to return the properties of the expelled people back to them , but they refused.

So , He took over the place and returned those properties back to people.

He killed no one in this action and let all the people live freely in mecca without converting to Islam.

IMO , western media try to make daemon out of Muslims to justify the wars that have been on Muslims for years.

And only bigoted people are the ones who put finger in their ears to stop hearing the bitter truth.

Here is one of my recent thread which I discussed about the Jihad

You are a Jihadi , you just don't know it

Islam: What the West Needs to Know (full documentary)

I think this thread tells almost every thing that west wanted to know and what west has been using to justify invading and occupying lands and killing Muslims in masses.

West already knew what to do when it was helping Wahhabi group be established.

West knew hot get saudi family and other kings to obey them and make reasons for their presence.( the unreasonable face for Islam)

West knew what to do when UK discovered the oil reach land of middle east. And they found that they can not colonize these countries while they have an instruction to defend their resources and lands.

West knew that it can use the power of other religions against Islam to help them get these lands quickly.

West knew it all , but you are new to these facts.

reply to post by mideast


Did you consider the possibility that some of us are trying to learn about this religion?

And the best way to do it is to ask questions about it?

reply to post by Kgnow

1. Muhammad preached peace in his weak beginnings in Mecca, and later developed the concepts of war, murder, and oppression of non-Muslims after he created a stronghold in Medina. From then on out it was jihad and conquer. In chronological order of Qur'anic revelation, Islam started peaceful and grew murderous and totalitarian. Islam was only based upon peace in the beginning.

Can you please find me ONE Islamic source that teaches that Islam started peaceful and grew murderous and totalitarian
I am not interested in debating peoples personal opinions.

2. Most wise, most compassionate, most merciful, and loving Allah never outlawed slavery nor the rape of slaves. Instead, Allah allows it and only says it is better to release them or it is better to treat them kind. Slavery and forced sex of slaves by their masters is less than "most compassionate". It should have been completely outlawed, not compromised.

Please quote the exact verses in the Koran that called for the rape of slaves. I am not interested in debating peoples personal opinions.

3. Allah in the Qur'an changes his mind and contradicts himself and glosses it over with the concept of abrogation.

Examples? Care to cite the exact verses?
Allah is the God of the Bible as well. Like it or not... God can change His mind.

4. The Qur'anic Median hate, oppression, and murder of non-Muslims combined with End Time eschatological teachings of an all-encompassing war between the global Muslim collective versus non-Muslims makes it impossible to say Islam is a religion of peace, love, freedom, and liberty.

What about the hate, oppression and murder of Muslims by non-Muslims?
Oh wait, I forgot...their lives are meaningless to you. I guess that makes it impossible to say that that the haters and oppressors and murderers of Muslims follow a way of life that has "peace, love, freedom and liberty".

Discuss please without comparing to others.

"Others" will be brought up as examples whenever required.

Dear Muslims and Islamic apologists:

Let us start with something simple that was mentioned in the OP video and also relates to me:

What does Islam say to do about people, like me, who have left Islam and openly spread awareness to its darkness?

"The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter." [Qur'an 5:33]

`Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways. Mischief in the land refers to various types of evil. [Tafsir ibn Kathir]

Waging war against Allah and His prophet means hostility against His chosen representatives; or deviation from His laws by overstepping the boundaries laid down by Him; or letting loose a reign of terror to persecute and frighten innocent people in order to deprive them of their rights; or attempts to undermine the cause of Islam and the overall interests of the Muslims; or activities to enslave, exploit and destroy human beings. [Pooya/Ali Commentary]

 

"Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." [Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17]

"Whoever changed his (Islamic) religion, then kill him" [Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:84:57]

These edicts abrogate (replace/nullify) the outdated "no compulsion in religion" ayat (verse).

Let us discuss.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by mideast

 

Did you consider the possibility that some of us are trying to learn about this religion?

And the best way to do it is to ask questions about it?

No , honestly.

But remember that asking question is different than bringing inaccurate , manipulated documents which shows that Islam is irrational.

And internet is full of website which contain information about Islam by mentioning the sources and the witnesses.

+ I try to remember what you said , thanks.

reply to post by Kgnow

... people, like me, who have left Islam and openly spread awareness to its darkness?

I am someone who was once anti-Muslim... And here I am defending Islam.