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originally posted by: hounddoghowlie
a reply to: Harte
I believe that's inaccurate. The earliest record of the story dates to the Old Babylonian Period, after the fall of both Sumer and Akkad. Text
you would be wrong,
The earliest Sumerian versions of “The Epic of Gilgamesh” date from as early as the Third Dynasty of Ur (2150 – 2000 BCE), and are written in Sumerian cuneiform script, one of the earliest known forms of written expression. It relates ancient folklore, tales and myths and it is believed that there were many different smaller stories and myths that over time grew together into one complete work. The earliest Akkadian versions (Akkadian is a later, unrelated, Mesopotamian language, which also used the cuneiform writing system) are dated to the early 2nd millennium.
Epic of Gilgamesh – Epic Poem Summary – Other Ancient Civilizations – Classical Literature (Epic poem, anonymous, Sumerian/Mesopotamian/Akkadian, c. 20th – 10th Century BCE, about 1,950 lines)
originally posted by: hounddoghowliefirst the Sumerians ruled, second the Akkadians, then so on. here is a good short history of the area. written by a professor from Oxford. first answer.
Are Babylonians, Sumerians and Mesopotamians the same?
now on to Murduk and the two kings.
tradition identifies Marduk as Enki/Ea's son,which ties him to him with the pantheon of Eridu.
so we all know that just about all gods back then had their own temple, even minor gods. it would be fair to say that Terah( Abrahans Father) could have been a priest. i can't find it now but IIRC there were some 3000 Sumerian gods.
now on the 2 kings.
if you go back and read my post. i said twice that nimrod was thought to be a combination of Sargon and his grandson. also it is also known that before the Akkadian conquest of Sumer, that both peoples lived peacefully in the area, and that the Akkadians mirrored many Sumerian traditions and beliefs.
originally posted by: hounddoghowlie
again as i said my point of my very first post to you was that,
but my point being that , people will assimilate parts of one culture as their own, whether it was the new people taking the old or the old taking the new ones.
doesn't matter what the scribes knew or didn't know actual history of the empires. it was the oral history that was passed down that they wrote about using the terms and langues that was in use.
If you mean Ur of the Chaldeans, then you're certainly skipping over quite a bit of the timeline. I'd be interested to see any evidence of this story of Abraham being passed down. There are scholars that think that Abraham's Ur was a different city with the same name. I'm not saying it was all fiction or anything, but Abraham was certainly not Sumerian (as someone stated before.)
Look up Marduk and how he evolved to see what I'm talking about. He was a minor god until elevated by the Babylonians.
Did you not see that I said it may have been a Sumerian story too? But no written version of it from Sumer has been found.
There are five extant Gilgamesh stories in the form of older poems in Sumerian.:141–208 These probably circulated independently, rather than being in the form of a unified epic. Some of the names of the main characters in these poems differ slightly from later Akkadian names; for example, "Bilgamesh" is written instead of "Gilgamesh", and there are some differences in the underlying stories such as the fact that Enkidu is Gilgamesh's servant in the Sumerian version:
1. The lord to the Living One's Mountain and Ho, hurrah! correspond to the Cedar Forest episode (standard version tablets II–V). Gilgamesh and Enkidu travel with other men to the Forest of Cedar. There, trapped by Huwawa, Gilgamesh tricks him (with Enkidu's assistance in one of the versions) into giving up his auras, thus losing his power.
2. Hero in battle corresponds to the Bull of Heaven episode (standard version tablet VI) in the Akkadian version. The Bull's voracious appetite causes drought and hardship in the land while Gilgamesh feasts. Lugalbanda convinces him to face the beast and fights it alongside Enkidu.
3. The envoys of Akka has no corresponding episode in the epic, but the themes of whether to show mercy to captives, and counsel from the city elders, also occur in the standard version of the Humbaba story. In the poem, Uruk faces a siege from a Kish army led by King Akka, whom Gilgamesh defeats and forgives.
4. In those days, in those far-off days, otherwise known as Gilgamesh, Enkidu, and the Netherworld, is the source for the Akkadian translation included as tablet XII in the standard version, telling of Enkidu's journey to the Netherworld. It is also the main source of information for the Sumerian creation myth and the story of "Inanna and the Huluppu Tree".
5. The great wild bull is lying down, a poem about Gilgamesh's death, burial and consecration as a semigod, reigning and giving judgement over the dead. After dreaming of how the gods decide his fate after death, Gilgamesh takes counsel, prepares his funeral and offers gifts to the gods. Once deceased, he is buried under the Euphrates, taken off its course and later returned
It is certain that, during the later Early Dynastic Period, Gilgamesh was worshipped as a god at various locations across Sumer. In the twenty-first century BC, Utu-hengal, the king of Uruk, adopted Gilgamesh as his patron deity. The kings of the Third Dynasty of Ur (c. 2112 – c. 2004 BC) were especially fond of Gilgamesh, calling him their "divine brother" and "friend". King Shulgi of Ur (2029–1982 BC) declared himself the son of Lugalbanda and Ninsun and the brother of Gilgamesh. Over the centuries, there may have been a gradual accretion of stories about Gilgamesh, some possibly derived from the real lives of other historical figures, such as Gudea, the Second Dynasty ruler of Lagash (2144–2124 BC). Prayers inscribed in clay tablets address Gilgamesh as a judge of the dead in the Underworld.
During this period, a large number of myths and legends developed surrounding Gilgamesh.:95 Five independent Sumerian poems narrating various exploits of Gilgamesh have survived to the present. Gilgamesh's first appearance in literature is probably in the Sumerian poem Gilgamesh, Enkidu, and the Netherworld.[21
Deification and legendary exploits
extant adjective ex·tant | ˈek-stənt ; ek-ˈstant, ˈek-ˌstant Definition of extant 1a : currently or actually existing the most charming writer extant— G. W. Johnson b : still existing : not destroyed or lost extant manuscripts 2 archaic : standing out or above
Meaning of extant in English extant adjective us /ˈek·stənt, ɪkˈstænt/
still existing: Phyllis Wheatley is the author of the earliest extant volume of poetry by an African American.
( extant | English extant adjective formal uk /ekˈstænt/ /ˈek.stənt/ us /ekˈstænt/ /ˈek.stənt/ used to refer to something very old that is still existing: We have some extant parish records from the 16th century.
edit on 16-10-2019 by hounddoghowlie because: (no reason given)
also nimrod as i said is thought to be by some a mix of Sargon and his grandson who are Akkadian . others say nimrod was the leader/founder of the Babylonian cities of Babel, Erech, Akkad and Calneh in the land of Shinar.
Attempts to match Nimrod with historically attested figures have failed. Nimrod may not represent any one personage known to history and various authors have identified him with several real and fictional figures of Mesopotamian antiquity, including the Mesopotamian god Ninurta or a conflation of two Akkadian kings Sargon and his grandson Naram-Sin (2254–2218 BCE), and Tukulti-Ninurta I (1243–1207 BCE).
I believe that's inaccurate. The earliest record of the story dates to the Old Babylonian Period, after the fall of both Sumer and Akkad.
Both kings you mention post-date Sumer by a century and more. Also, Marduk only rose to prominence during the Babylonian Period, a fact the scribes at the time were very unlikely to know.
Textalso there is no evidence that Chaldeans were even in Mesopotamia during the time of Abraham. all the evidence shows that they came 800 to 900 years after he lived. it is summarized as you stated that the the hebrew bible was written during the Chaldean dynasty that was ruling Babylonia at that time, and Ur of the Chaldeans is used in english as his place origin instead of Ur Kaśdim. plus some stories say that abraham was born during rule of Nimrod of Shinar ( some say a mix of two kings Sargon and Naram-Sin), and his father a was the high preist who worshiped Marduk and sold idols. so it safe to say he was a Sumerian.
Marduk only rose to prominence during the Babylonian Period, a fact the scribes at the time were very unlikely to know.
Marduk is first mentioned in the West (Syria-Palestine) in Akkadian documents from Ugarit (Middle Babylonian period around 1350; see: Ugaritica, 5 (1968), 792) where, as mentioned, one version of the philosophical treatise Ludlul bēl nēmeqi was known. Also there is an incantation letter against nambul ("The Wrong"; "The Bad") directing him to appear before Marduk. The first appearance of Marduk in Palestine occurs in the same period and takes the form of the personal name of Šulum-Marduk in the el-Amarna letters (EA). According to EA 256:20, as interpreted by Albright (in BASOR, 89 (1943), 12ff.), the royal house at ʿAštartu (the contemporary king being A-ia-ab (= Job)) was called "The House of Šulum-Marduk." (Another reading for "house" is advocated by Moran, 309, but the name Šulum-Marduk remains.) Marduk was known also among the Hittites, and Middle Babylonian cylinder seals dedicated to him have been found at Thebes, Greece. In the first millennium Marduk's name appears in Assyrian and Aramean treaties from Sefire that were concluded with King Matiʾilu of Arpad (COS II, 213). In the Bible, apart from Marduk (see above), Bel (his appellative attribute) together with his son Nab – (see above) is mentioned in Isaiah 46:1 and Jeremiah 51:44. In both these prophecies divine judgment (not the judgment of a "rival" as in the case of Aššur) is pronounced against a symbolic polytheistic entity within the framework of a particular stage in history. The historical placement of these verses is difficult. Nevertheless, the announcement of biblical-prophetic judgment is consistent with the attitude of the other antagonists to Marduk and Babylon, described above.
Ancient Jewish History: Marduk
Sargon of Akkad (/ˈsɑːrɡɒn/; Akkadian: 𒈗𒁺 Šarru-ukīn or Šarru-kēn), also known as Sargon the Great, was the first ruler of the Akkadian Empire, known for his conquests of the Sumerian city-states in the 24th to 23rd centuries BC.