Location of the Great Apple Tree within Edin

Just so I understand the gist of it, modern religions such as Christianity have flourished on the premise of these stories so succesfuly because at some point in time, someone decided to write a poem about a bloody tree???

lol.

reply to post by Hopechest

Sumerian text is older and much of Genesis is literally ripped off from their writings. I would begin you search there.

i'm going to quickly point out that this is circular reasoning. it presupposes the bible to be false.

if the bible is mostly factual, then the events would predate sumerian legend, and one could argue that sumerian legend is the result of a story changing over time from the biblical account revealed to humans later.

the bible is wrong, therefore the sumerian texts are the original story, therefore the bible ripped off sumerian legend, therefore the bible is wrong.

the bible very well could be wrong, i don't deny the possibility, but the argument you're using to prove it wrong is circular.

reply to post by Kantzveldt

Awesome presentation!
Ignore the trolls. Those of us who actually read it know that this has nothing to do with the Bible.
I just wish that part of the world wasn't war torn ATM. I'd love to go see it for myself.

Originally posted by Kantzveldt
reply to post by Hopechest

 

It's entirely factual, there are Temple Hymns recorded to the Temple of Kubala that contained the Mes trees, the sacred precincts of Uruk were built around them.

Enjoyed the opening post, but should point out that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is not identified as an apple tree, and the fruit that Eve ate is likewise not an apple. The "apple" part of the legend (it's occasionally identified as pomegranate as well) was of medieval origin: en.wikipedia.org...

And I don't think the mes tree was identified as apple -- or was it? Curious to know that.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000



You may then enjoy this, it gives insight into how the Sumerians understood all understanding as based within nature, hence the importance of the MES trees.


(Inana speaks "My brother, awe-inspiring lord, let me ride with you to the mountains! Lord of heaven, awe-inspiring lord, lord, let me ride with you to the mountains;

I am unfamiliar with womanly matters, with ....... I am unfamiliar with womanly matters, with sexual intercourse! I am unfamiliar with womanly matters, with kissing! I am unfamiliar with sexual intercourse, I am unfamiliar with kissing!

"Whatever exists in the mountains, let us eat that. Whatever exists in the hills, let us eat that. In the mountains of herbs, in the mountains of cedars, in the mountains of cedars, the mountains of cypresses, whatever exists in the mountains, let us eat that.


etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk...


The tradition from Uruk which dates back some 7,000 years is of course based on the traditions of earlier millenia, and which were increasingly lost and obscured as civilization progressed.



reply to post by Byrd



All trees would be understood as MES trees, with knowledge and understanding bound within their nature, the particular MES tree of the shepherd King of Uruk was the apple tree, also sacred to Anu and imparting Heavenly knowledge, that of Inanna the Euphrates poplar...it made for good bedding.


reply to post by Hopechest



One shouldn't confuse issues, in the text of Inannas descent into the Underworld the Great Apple tree is described as located on the plain of Kubala, within any historical period dating from 7,000 years ago onwward Kubala is no longer a plain, it is the central district of Uruk.

In short the entire city of Uruk and its religious traditions have grown around a sacred apple tree, if that was not real then neither was the city of Uruk and neither is civilization

Sounds to me like there was a lot more than just apples growing up there in the mountains and all sorts of kinky goings on away from the good village folks of the time.

Wonderful as always!

I love Apples, although I have never really tasted the Golden Apple of Discord...I hear it is by far the sweetest fruit...tastes like nectar of the gods and is sweet like honey!

reply to post by Kantzveldt


What a super read thank you Kantzveldt i love reading about this topic and you did it so well

Brill thread s/f wish i could give you more you brightened my day.

reply to post by abeverage



That's good, you can be a Honey man because i'm feeling generous.

The honey man, the honey man will make me sweet; my lord, the honey man of a goddess, his mother's favourite, whose hands are honey, whose feet are honey, will make me sweet, whose limbs are honey-sweet, will make me sweet


etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk...


There is also a great speech by Ninsubur when she presents Dumuzid as King and Husband to Inanna


Nincubur, the good minister of E-ana, clasps him by his right hand and brings him in bliss to Inana's embrace: "May the lord whom you have chosen in your heart, the king, your beloved husband, enjoy long days in your holy and sweet embrace! Give him a propitious and famous reign, give him a royal throne of kingship on its firm foundation, give him the sceptre to guide the Land, and the staff and crook, and give him the righteous headdress and the crown which glorifies the head! From the rising of the sun to the setting of the sun, from the south to the north, from the upper sea to the lower sea, from where the halub tree grows to where the cedar grows, over all Sumer and Akkad, grant him the staff and the crook!

"May he act as shepherd of the black-headed inhabitants; may he, like a farmer, make the fields productive; may he make the sheepfolds multiply, like a trustworthy shepherd. Under him, may there be flax, may there be barley; in the rivers may there be carp floods. Under him, may there be mottled barley in the fields; in the marshes, fish, and may the birds chatter. Under him, may the old reeds and the young reeds grow tall in the reed-beds; under him, may the macgurum bushes flourish on the high plains. Under him, may the wild sheep and wild goats multiply in the forests; under him, may the irrigated orchards produce syrup and wine. Under him, may lettuce and cress flourish in the garden plots; under him, may there be long life in the palace.

"May high flood-waters flow in the Tigris and Euphrates, may the grasses grow tall on their banks, and may the meadows be covered. May the holy lady Nisaba pile high the grain heaps and mounds. My lady, queen of heaven and earth, queen who encompasses heaven and earth, may he enjoy long days ...... embrace."


etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk...


The romantic tradition of Dumuzid and Inanna is a lot better than anything that came after, i mean she even sent him off to the Underworld for not being overly concerned at her absence...


Much of the literary Inanna corpus was written by a woman, the Priestess Enheduanna


en.wikipedia.org...

Don't know why but with the story of Dumuzid I am reminded of being the Rain King...


Hard to get to heaven as bird with a broken wing.
Inanna could be fickle...not easy to bring the rain back to desert I think...

Originally posted by Hopechest

Originally posted by Kantzveldt
reply to post by Hopechest

 

I began and ended there and didn't trouble to visit anywhere else...

Than you should know the Bible is based on an old story, its not factual.

The writers that followed built on a lie...a house of cards basically.

The Bible is a metaphor....not to be taken literally so your adam and eve probably never happened.

Wow how do you know so much!!! That is incredible how you beleive what you see in Zeitgeist so much, and so enlightened.

reply to post by abeverage



But how many know the story of Dumuzid...?


Here is Inanna when marrying the shepherd is first proposed to her;


"I am a woman and I won't do that, I won't! I am a star ......, and I won't! I won't be the wife of a shepherd!" Her brother, the warrior youth Utu, said to holy Inana:

"My sister, let the shepherd marry you! Maiden Inana, why are you unwilling? His butter is good, his milk is good -- all the work of the shepherd's hands is splendid. Inana, let Dumuzid marry you. You who wear jewellery, who wear cuba jewels, why are you unwilling? (1 ms. adds 2 lines: His butter is good, his milk is good -- all the work of the shepherd's hands is splendid.) He will eat his good butter with you. Protector of the king, why are you unwilling?"

"The shepherd shall not marry me! He shall not make me carry his garments of new wool. His brand new wool will not influence me. Let the farmer marry me, the maiden. With the farmer who grows colourful flax, with the farmer who grows dappled grain ......."


etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk...


Inanna preparing for her first date;




My sister, what have you been doing in the house? Little one, what have you been doing in the house?"

I was bathing, I was rubbing myself with soap. I was washing myself with water from the holy kettle, I was rubbing myself with the soap from the white stone bowl. I was anointing myself with good oil from the stone bowl, and dressing myself in the formal dress proper to Inana. That is how I was busying myself in the house.

"I have put lots of kohl on my eyes, I have arranged ...... the nape of my neck. I have washed my dangling hair, I have tested my weapons that make his reign propitious. I have straightened my tousled head of hair, I have combed out my untied locks, I have let them fall down the back of my neck. I have put a golden bracelet on my wrist. I have put little lapis-lazuli beads round my neck, and arranged their buttons over my neck muscles."

"Sister! I will bring you whatever you desire. I will bring the loving heart of your heart. Your goddess has given you good looks. Sister, shining bright, you are the honey of your own mother. My sister, to whom I shall bring five things, my sister, to whom I shall bring ten things, she has perfected your appearance for you; sister, shining bright, she has really made it a delight."

"When my brother enters from the palace, the singers shall ......, and I shall pour wine into his mouth. That should gladden his heart, should please his heart.


etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk...




Inanna lying to her Mother about were she has been;




While I, the lady, was passing the day yesterday, while I, Inana, was passing the day yesterday, while I was passing the day, while I was dancing, while I was singing songs all day until evening, he met me, he met me. The lord, the friend of An, met me; the lord took me in his hands, Ucumgal-ana embraced me about my neck.

"......, let me go, so that I can go to our house! Friend of Enlil, let me go, so that I can go to our house! What lie can I offer to my mother? What lie can I offer to my mother Ningal?"

"Let me teach you, let me teach you! Inana, let me teach you the lies of women: "My girlfriend was dancing with me in the square. She ran around playfully with me, banging the drum. She sang her sweet songs for me. I passed the day there with her in pleasure and delight." Offer this as a lie to your own mother. As for us -- let me make love with you by moonlight! Let me loosen your combs on the holy and luxuriant couch. May you pass a sweet day there with me in voluptuous pleasure."


She does of course reget sending Dumuzid to the Underworld and thus his Festive return was a much celebrated annual event following the Winter Solstice.

Originally posted by Kantzveldt
All trees would be understood as MES trees,

I'm having a hard time with this one, since I know they categorized things and had names for specific items.

with knowledge and understanding bound within their nature, the particular MES tree of the shepherd King of Uruk was the apple tree, also sacred to Anu and imparting Heavenly knowledge, that of Inanna the Euphrates poplar...it made for good bedding.

Is there a source for the Mes tree being an apple tree?

Originally posted by Hopechest

Originally posted by Kantzveldt
reply to post by Hopechest

 

It's entirely factual, there are Temple Hymns recorded to the Temple of Kubala that contained the Mes trees, the sacred precincts of Uruk were built around them.


House with the great me’s of Kulaba, .(its) has made the temple flourish

O house with the great divine powers of Kulaba, ......, its platform has made the great shrine flourish. Green fresh fruit, marvellous, filled with ripeness, descending from the centre of heaven


There are plenty of preserved tablets from the Neo-Babylonian period that concern themselves with the rituals and administration of these Temples, and the preparations for the Dumuzid festival at the end of June.

There are ancient hyms from greek mythology describing Zeus also.

Is he real?

Yes

Was I should say.



S/F OP, this is wonderful information that has eluded my random search for interesting reading.

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by Kantzveldt
reply to post by Hopechest

 

It's entirely factual, there are Temple Hymns recorded to the Temple of Kubala that contained the Mes trees, the sacred precincts of Uruk were built around them.

Enjoyed the opening post, but should point out that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is not identified as an apple tree, and the fruit that Eve ate is likewise not an apple. The "apple" part of the legend (it's occasionally identified as pomegranate as well) was of medieval origin: en.wikipedia.org...

And I don't think the mes tree was identified as apple -- or was it? Curious to know that.

Mes as I understand it was actually knowledge...passed down, yet hidden from the commoners.

Only the gods (Or divine rulers) would carry around a Golden source of Knowledge, Wisdom and Power...

Sorry I always have loved significance of that Logo(s).

reply to post by Byrd



Yes every tree species had it's own intrinsic nature and provided insight into specific areas of wisdom, the best example of this is as i posted above, were Inanna knowing nothing even about her own most basic expected functions went into the mountains and ate of every plant and tree she could find.

Another example would be the story of Enki and his wife Ninhursag, were Enki wishes to taste the ways of her sacred plants and she puts such a curse on him that he would die, and needed to find a way to be restored limb by limb, including the loss a rib for his troubles.


The fundamentals of knowledge thus to the Sumerians were bound up within all aspects of nature, and it had been the role of women to gather and learn of their ways.






The Mes tablets which held written all the commands and functions necssary to order society were in effect as the branches, leaves and fruits of the Mes trees.



The Apple tree is a Mes tree and Dumuzid is bound up with it's qualities, if he was to taste it that would lead to self knowledge.



My desirable one, my desirable one, your charms are lovely, my desirable apple garden, your charms are lovely. My fruitful garden of mes trees, your charms are lovely, my one who is in himself Dumuzid-abzu, your charms are lovely. My holy statuette, my holy statuette, your charms are lovely. My alabaster statuette adorned with a lapis-lazuli jewel, your charms are lovely."


etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk...



Good semen, good seed; when he comes forth from the brickbuilt abzu, I will make him sprout forth like a mes tree. Ama-ucumgal-ana, may An create ....... ...... shall supply you with ....... Your sweet beauty, like foliage ....... I shall cherish you ....... I will make Ama-ucumgal-ana sprout forth as just such a mes tree



You can learn a lot of things from the flowers
For especially in the month of June
There's a wealth of happiness and romance
All in the golden afternoon

loooool its a Metaphor. there is no real apple tree related to that story

reply to post by Kantzveldt


yeah good luck finding that tree. the last time i heard of this an anthropologist told me that if the Tree of Edin had in fact existed it was probably long gone in its early age when people started cultivating and in order to cultivate you need to cut down trees and make room for cultivation so the tree must have been surely cut down thanks to humans and their agriculture

Good material. I read a little about the gods but never read about the tree in the articles I found. S&F for the work. The basis of Genesis in the bible is from older history. There is basis to much of these old stories, Most of the gods were just very ancient kings and queens and they did have some defining features. It appears that some may have been longlived also.

reply to post by Kantzveldt


I almost didn't click on this thread until I noticed your name. Great compilation. Thanks for being such an awesome resource.

I don't know if I'll ever fully understand why there was turmoil between the Anzu bird and Inanna when it came to the tree but, like most great stories in mythology, a confusing plot twist or two doesn't take away from the enjoyment. If that were the case, the bible would have never became as popular as it did.