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Your "rights", god granted or government sanctioned?

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posted on Jun, 6 2013 @ 12:44 AM
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I submit that your "rights" come from which ever government you reside under. For support I submit to you to all of human history till the concept was written down in the constitution.

Also, as an American, I have the right to bear arms. Yet if I move to some parts of Europe, I lose that right. How can I lose a "right" if its granted by a god? Is that god so weak s/he's that easily overruled?

If a god decreed your "rights", then it was the greek and roman gods, as they were the first to create democracy.

Now, for those that say the christian god gave us Americans our rights, please show me, in scripture, these rights. The only ones I know are "render unto caeser" and "all authority above you is placed there by god". So the christian god supports monarchy, and also supports slavery (o.t. and john told a slave to return to his master). Basic violations to the "right" of freedom, no?




posted on Jun, 6 2013 @ 12:56 AM
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reply to post by stormson
 


Neither.

Our rights are inherent, they are not given by gods or governments.
Whether or not any given govt. chooses to acknowledge and protect those rights is another matter.



posted on Jun, 6 2013 @ 12:56 AM
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reply to post by stormson
 
No one has ever claimed that God gave you your “American rights”, this world is not supposed to be “fair”, nor is it supposed to be “fun”, as a matter of fact it's supposed to be just the opposite. This is NOT Gods world, which is clearly stated in the Bible repeatedly, it's Satan's. We are subject to Satan's world, and to the Law (as opposed to grace).

God certainly didn't give you the right to own guns, God would not be in favor of the existence of guns. Again clearly pointed out in various ways in the bible, but as an example: “live by the sword, die by the sword”...



posted on Jun, 6 2013 @ 01:03 AM
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reply to post by stormson
 


Dear stormson,



Now, for those that say the christian god gave us Americans our rights, please show me, in scripture, these rights. The only ones I know are "render unto caeser" and "all authority above you is placed there by god". So the christian god supports monarchy, and also supports slavery (o.t. and john told a slave to return to his master). Basic violations to the "right" of freedom, no?


A Christian here. You don't have any rights and neither do I and the bible does not say that you do. We are told to be good slaves and say that when I preach. Now don't confuse "right and wrong" from a right. Something may be wrong; but, that doesn't mean that I can prevent it, it does not mean that I am guaranteed to not be misused. The story of Job is good for this one, he was treated wrongly by Satan and God allowed it to happen. The western concept of a "right" is that I can seek the government to ensure that I am compensated when someone does wrong to me; but, the government fails miserably at that.

In the grand scheme of things, we choose who we become and then live with those consequences later after we die. Not punishment though it is described in those terms, consequences, choices and results. The answer to your question is therefore, there are no right on this earth that are paid for on this earth. Rights are given by God but the consequences come later and you always have a chance to improve while you are alive. We call that free will.



posted on Jun, 6 2013 @ 01:04 AM
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reply to post by defcon5
 


Dear defcon5,

Drat, we are in agreement and you posted first. Peace and a star.



posted on Jun, 6 2013 @ 01:18 AM
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Originally posted by defcon5
reply to post by stormson
 
No one has ever claimed that God gave you your “American rights”, this world is not supposed to be “fair”, nor is it supposed to be “fun”, as a matter of fact it's supposed to be just the opposite. This is NOT Gods world, which is clearly stated in the Bible repeatedly, it's Satan's. We are subject to Satan's world, and to the Law (as opposed to grace).

God certainly didn't give you the right to own guns, God would not be in favor of the existence of guns. Again clearly pointed out in various ways in the bible, but as an example: “live by the sword, die by the sword”...



the constitution states your rights are "endowed by their Creator", hence god-given, no?
if jesus and yhvh are the same, then jesus was there in the old testement when yhvh told the hebrews to commit genocide, mass slavery, and mass rape to claim israel, no?
why would god not be in favor of guns, but swords?



posted on Jun, 6 2013 @ 01:21 AM
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Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by stormson
 


Dear stormson,



You don't have any rights and neither do I and the bible does not say that you do...
Rights are given by God but the consequences come later and you always have a chance to improve while you are alive. We call that free will.


care to explain? (oq edited to show contradiction)
edit on 6-6-2013 by stormson because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 6 2013 @ 01:23 AM
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reply to post by stormson
 


I submit that your "rights" come from which ever government you reside under.

International sovereignty would agree. You should respect the laws of other countries when you cross their borders. Or don't go.


Also, as an American, I have the right to bear arms. Yet if I move to some parts of Europe, I lose that right. How can I lose a "right" if its granted by a god? Is that god so weak s/he's that easily overruled?

Which "God"? In some countries the state is God.

"When in Rome-"



posted on Jun, 6 2013 @ 01:23 AM
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Originally posted by watchitburn
reply to post by stormson
 


Neither.

Our rights are inherent, they are not given by gods or governments.
Whether or not any given govt. chooses to acknowledge and protect those rights is another matter.


if they are inherent, why didnt they show up before 1786 and the constitution?



posted on Jun, 6 2013 @ 01:26 AM
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reply to post by stormson
 


Dear stormson,



the constitution states your rights are "endowed by their Creator", hence god-given, no? if jesus and yhvh are the same, then jesus was there in the old testement when yhvh told the hebrews to commit genocide, mass slavery, and mass rape to claim israel, no? why would god not be in favor of guns, but swords?


The writers of the Constitution were not prophets, what they said was not in the bible. I like the Constitution; but, it is not biblical even if the Founding fathers were believers. They believed there was a biblical right and wrong and hoped that they could build a government around right and wrong; but, they were just men too. As for Jesus, they nailed him to a cross, did he have a right to be treated better? Not the second he came to this earth and this is what he proved. There are no rights on earth, only God ensures rights and you don't get those experienced until only those who treat other well are together and apart from those who would willfully and joyfully wrong others for their own advantage.



posted on Jun, 6 2013 @ 01:59 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Jun, 6 2013 @ 02:09 AM
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reply to post by billy565
 


Dear billy565,

Nobody owes you anything, open your own site and see who shows up.



posted on Jun, 6 2013 @ 02:18 AM
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Originally posted by watchitburn
reply to post by stormson
 


Neither.

Our rights are inherent, they are not given by gods or governments.
Whether or not any given govt. chooses to acknowledge and protect those rights is another matter.


So how do you define something as a "right" if it can "legally" be taken away from you then?

I thought a "right" was something that some legal entity considers "inalienable" - certainly some such entities think different rights exist than others - which also makes the idea that these are "inherent" quit difficult to comprehend.

For example the Cairo declaration on human rights has different sets of rights for Moslems and non-moslems - how does that work in your context?



posted on Jun, 6 2013 @ 02:22 AM
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Originally posted by stormson
the constitution states your rights are "endowed by their Creator", hence god-given, no?

This is man-made philosophy, its not Christian theology...
For example:

Romans 9:
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

So were Jacob and Esau created “equal” in the eyes of God?

Also don't forget that they are not mentioning a “specific” god here. All but two of the signers were masons, who accept any god, and they term god by any name as the “creator” or “great architect”...


Originally posted by stormson
if jesus and yhvh are the same, then jesus was there in the old testement when yhvh told the hebrews to commit genocide, mass slavery, and mass rape to claim israel, no?

There is predestination in the Bible. God, being all knowing, already knows before you are born if you are to be saved or not, and those who will refuse all efforts to be saved can then be used to help those who have a chance to be. So God allowed violence in helping his chosen people exist in a world that was run by Satan against those who would not be saved anyway. The “bad” that happens in this world comes from this world and its ruler, it does not come from God, so what happens to them is ultimately their own responsibility. God cannot be faulted for for the bad that happens to folks here, as he is not the one who put us under these circumstances

Again back to Romans 9:

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

You cannot judge God by human standards of "right and wrong", his mind is foreign to us as ours would be to an ant.

You are correct that Jesus and God are aspects of the same being though. Christ is the “word of God made flesh and sent here to dwell among us”...


Originally posted by stormson
why would god not be in favor of guns, but swords?

He was not in favor of either, that is the point of the quote. If you live by violence you will die by a violent means. Its the consequences of your actions leading to that end result.



posted on Jun, 6 2013 @ 02:27 AM
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reply to post by stormson
 

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


As I said, rights are inherent.
They can't be given to you, you already have them.
Govt's can and have been taking them away though. You can go somewhere those rights are respected, or you can fight to preserve and keep them. Many have died throughout history fighting to keep their rights. Most of the time they just end up dead or imprisoned.


edit on 6-6-2013 by watchitburn because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 6 2013 @ 04:24 PM
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reply to post by watchitburn
 


the only 2 rights I see humans as having that are inherent (that cannot be taken away) are the right to be conceived, and the right to die some time after that.

Everything else CAN be taken away - so presumably everything else is not a right?




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