It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

What does it actually mean to be pro-life?

page: 4
5
<< 1  2  3    5 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 01:30 AM
link   

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
You're not GETTING it. Choice means I make the choice for me and everyone else makes the choice for them.


I understand where you come from but on one end you say...



Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
For me, when I got pregnant, that was my CHILD, soul or not, fetus or not, and I wanted to do everything possible to protect it.


And on the other end you approve of another woman who views it as an "it" and aborts for some selfish reason, or no reason at all, just wants to do it, its her choice. To you its a child to her it is a lump of cells she wants to remove on her choice.




posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 03:03 AM
link   

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by randomtangentsrme

I would disagree with your statement of a third category, and more so argue you may in fact be pro-choice.
Most folks I have met who are pro choice, do not use abortions for convenience, nor do they reach a decision to abort easily.


So explain the million plus abortions per year and 150k of them are in the second trimester. I think the norm is not the few of you debating this topic.



The only extreme is the "pro-life" where regardless of safety to the mother, or quality of life for the child (severe birth defects, not household) the child must be carried to term and born, even if the child will not survive outside of a hospital and will not last a year regardless.


I guess I'm either pro-choice that views a fetus as a human being or I'm pro-life without the religious aspect to it. The part that bothers me is that a mother can abort for even something as simple and selfish as she doesn't want to gain weight. It also bothers me that our society has evolved into one where there is no individual responsibility for one's actions.

Of the 1.3ish million abortions last year in America I would bet 1 million are based on selfish reasons, and to me is unconscionable.



"Pro-choice" is just that, pro (as in for) choice (being able to contemplate all options, and choosing the best one for the situation [preferable with advice from medical professionals]).


For me I can't honestly label myself as pro-choice when one of those choices is to use abortions as a birth control method. It really cheapens life and opens up a Pandora box of possible outcomes. Next we will see women getting pregnant to sell the stem cells of their child.



edit on 7-6-2013 by Xtrozero because: (no reason given)


I could just as easily explain why a gopher seeing it's shadow means a longer winter. In other words, not at all.
I, like another on this thread, know someone who has had so many abortions they can no longer conceive with out help.
Do I find it sad, sure. Does that make it an interest of mine to limit others who do not abuse the resources they have? Not in the least.

As the majority of pro life arguments on this site and others argue ALL life is sacred, anything contradicting that has to be (to the majority) a pro choice statement.
Sadly the world doesn't revolve around your perspective. While you may believe "1 million are based on selfish reasons" you really have no proof of it, I will not debate a belief without facts or even statistics to back it up.

But you will accept others using it for the greater "good," for themselves or family.
I can accept you do not like where society is going. And I can accept (and agree with) your concerns. But, to use an old cliche, you are throwing out the baby with the bath-water.
And that I do not think either of us accepts. Every one will disagree with someone on a choice that they made. But can anyone really say it was the right or wrong decision? All we can do is educate and/or learn.

On a related note, there has been at least 1 thread on ATS speculating about egg harvests of unborn human females, so I'm not so worried about stem cells.

It seems to me you are trying to make the argument that (poetic license): 100 people with flashlights burned down a barn so we should ban people with flashlights.
Please correct me if I'm way off base here.



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 06:53 AM
link   
reply to post by Xtrozero
 



Originally posted by Xtrozero
To you its a child to her it is a lump of cells she wants to remove on her choice.


Yes. Exactly. It's called NOT applying my morals, beliefs and opinions to other people.
It's called Live and Let Live.
It's called personal freedom.
A simple concept, but something VERY few people are actually able to do for some reason.

Lots of people pay lip service to believing in "freedom" and "personal responsibility", but they're talking out their ass. Because what they really want is to have the choice for THEMSELVES, but they also want other people to behave as they do, in essence removing their choice. And in the case of abortion, the "pro-life" group wants to use the LAW to FORCE others to behave according to THEIR beliefs, opinions and morals.

If you see something as "wrong", then don't do it! But let others decide for themselves whether THEY think it's wrong or not and let them make the personal decisions and choices for their lives. It's THEIR life, not yours.

edit on 6/7/2013 by Benevolent Heretic because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 08:53 AM
link   
reply to post by Xtrozero
 





Of the 1.3ish million abortions last year in America I would bet 1 million are based on selfish reasons, and to me is unconscionable.


The ONLY reason people purposely plan for and have children is for SELFISH reasons. People have children, mostly because THEY want them.

Sometime, choosing an abortion is the least selfish choice.

If a woman is using birth control, she is NOT looking to be a parent, and is doing the responsible thing to avoid that outcome. If that birth control fails, aborting the unwanted pregnancy can be the most responsible thing to do.

People have auto insurance, not so that can go out and drive recklessly, but so that IF an accident happens, their insurance will assist with the consequences. If birth control fails, abortion is an insurance so that she will not HAVE to give birth to and raise an unwanted child.



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 02:30 PM
link   

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

If you see something as "wrong", then don't do it! But let others decide for themselves whether THEY think it's wrong or not and let them make the personal decisions and choices for their lives. It's THEIR life, not yours.

edit on 6/7/2013 by Benevolent Heretic because: (no reason given)


I truly don't care what others do, well until their actions affect others and in this case it affects the child in they womb. This doesn't mean there are not good reasons for abortions just as there are good reasons to kill another person. With 28 years of military service I hold life in high regards, but would not hesitate to protect myself and family from someone wanting to do harm. This does not mean I would kill someone because they were an annoyance to me, and that is how I view todays pro-choice ideals.



posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 03:04 PM
link   
reply to post by Xtrozero
 



Originally posted by Xtrozero
This does not mean I would kill someone because they were an annoyance to me, and that is how I view todays pro-choice ideals.


So you don't approve of having an abortion because of "annoyance". Understood. Just to get an idea of where you're coming from, what's your take on these reasons?

How about if the woman can't afford to feed the child?
What about if she's not ready for the responsibility of parenthood?
What if she already has four children and simply doesn't want any more?
What if she thinks she's too immature herself to have a child?



posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 02:11 AM
link   

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

How about if the woman can't afford to feed the child?
What about if she's not ready for the responsibility of parenthood?
What if she already has four children and simply doesn't want any more?
What if she thinks she's too immature herself to have a child?


Those are very good questions and I would suggest that abortion should be last choice but it seems for most it becomes first choice since it tends to be the easiest/quickest. I don't know the answer to this, and I think science will basically make the whole pro-whatever obsolete with advance preventative methods.

I do think any kind of life is better than no life at all, its not like the fetus can make the choice, and I don't know any one that feels that their mom did them wrong by not aborting them...




edit on 8-6-2013 by Xtrozero because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 02:31 AM
link   
reply to post by Xtrozero
 





and I don't know any one that feels that their mom did them wrong by not aborting them...


I am sure there are such people. For example those who commited suicide, and there are millions of those.

I never understood this worshipping of life above everything else. As a matter of principle, Id rather choose being aborted than living a bad life, for sufficient amount of badness. And if philosophically speaking, aborted babies reincarnate, Id choose abortion even for merely below average life.
edit on 8/6/13 by Maslo because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 06:36 AM
link   
reply to post by Xtrozero
 



Originally posted by Xtrozero
Those are very good questions and I would suggest that abortion should be last choice but it seems for most it becomes first choice since it tends to be the easiest/quickest.


How are you determining that abortion seems to be the first choice for women who find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy? I really want to know where you get that idea!

Since Roe v Wade, I have known exactly TWO women who have gotten abortions. For both, it was the last resort and a very difficult decision to make. There were tears - there were second thoughts - there were regrets and shame. I don't know where you get the idea that hordes of cold-hearted bitches are having abortions willy-nilly without concern or care for anyone but themselves - out of "annoyance" - but you need to check your position, IMO, because it simply isn't true.



I don't know the answer to this...


No. You don't. And until you do, perhaps you should consider pulling back on your baseless judgments about women who have abortions. Look, I don't like abortion either. It's a heartbreaking and dreadful decision to have to make, much less to go through with! But for me to make that decision for another woman would be JUST as terrible, if not worse. And for the "pro-life" movement to have the balls to make that decision for all women is the most controlling and anti-freedom thing I can imagine!



I do think any kind of life is better than no life at all...


Being born an unwanted child, to a mother who had no choice and now cannot afford to feed him, so places him into the foster care system, where he's shuffled from abusive home to abusive home - who, as a young adult, finds solace in drugs and alcohol, and eventually takes his own life because he can no longer stand the fact that he was never really loved, is no life to live!



I don't know any one that feels that their mom did them wrong by not aborting them...


Then you need to look harder. I binged "I wish I had never been born" and got 100 Million results...These are three people's stories from the first result:

I Wish I had Never Been Born


I can recall at the age of 4 asking my mother why she had me. She just got angry and told me I was stupid. She got angry not because of the questions content, she did not care how I felt, she was mad because I was questioning her as a mother. She always liked everyone to know she was a "good" mother.
...
Ohh how I wish that I was never born, life would have been so much easier. Constant rejection, always feeling like a failure and a loser. ... Why was I born anyway when im so meaningless.
...
Why Wasn'T I Aborted? It's always strange when the topic of abortion comes up. ... What I don't say, what I'm always thinking, is that I wish my mother had aborted me. I envy fetuses that are aborted. Why do people think life is so great anyway?



You have some very popular ideas about abortion, but if you want the truth, you really should slow your roll and examine those positions, because what you believe is a lie. What you believe is what the so called "pro-life" movement has fed into your brain through media. You say you don't have the answers, and yet you're willing to make the choice for women - at least to some extent. I just hope that you consider that you might be all turned around on this.


By the way, the answer to the questions:



Why do Women Have Abortions?

- Feels unready for child/responsibility 25%
- Feels she can't afford baby 23%
- Has all the children she wants/Other family responsibilities 19%
- Relationship problem/Single motherhood 8%
- Feels she isn't mature enough 7%
- Interference with education/career plans 4%
- Parents/Partner wants abortion



posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 09:48 PM
link   

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Since Roe v Wade, I have known exactly TWO women who have gotten abortions. For both, it was the last resort and a very difficult decision to make.


As I said I don't see you and others as the norm in many cases. 1.3 million abortions doesn't mean they are rare and doesn't mean everything has been tried before hand. The number in itself speaks.... We are not going to agree here sorry...



No. You don't. And until you do, perhaps you should consider pulling back on your baseless judgments about women who have abortions.


Really? Is my views on this so wacked out I need to pull back? Or is it I don't agree as you do...is that bad too?
I'm not judging anyone...I never put a single person under the microscope...I judge society...or am I wrong there too?



Being born an unwanted child, to a mother who had no choice and now cannot afford to feed him, so places him into the foster care system, where he's shuffled from abusive home to abusive home - who, as a young adult, finds solace in drugs and alcohol, and eventually takes his own life because he can no longer stand the fact that he was never really loved, is no life to live!


lol total bull crap.... Don't play the poor child who is never loved so he would have been better off aborted game with me... listen to your self for once. You play out one poor child's whole life as if it is written in stone. I got one...he wasn't aborted and has a hard childhood that gives him determination to achieve and becomes president preventing world destruction...see I can do it too.

Life is always better than no life...geez...



Before you judge, try to imagine how it would feel to suddenly find out that you alone are about to bring a human being into this world and that you will be solely responsible for its financial care and physical health, emotional well-being and self-esteem, security, safety, morals, education and discipline... For about the next 20 years or so... (I say you will be solely responsible, because the partner cannot be assumed to be there.) If that sound a little overwhelming to you, that's because it is. Tell me you want someone else (the government) making the choice as to whether or not you take on the task...


Ok ok you got me...I agree....kill the little sucker...its better off......boy who would want all this, I understand now, we can just kill it and all this goes away.... you win



posted on Jun, 8 2013 @ 09:52 PM
link   

Originally posted by Maslo

I am sure there are such people. For example those who commited suicide, and there are millions of those.

I never understood this worshipping of life above everything else. As a matter of principle, Id rather choose being aborted than living a bad life, for sufficient amount of badness. And if philosophically speaking, aborted babies reincarnate, Id choose abortion even for merely below average life


I guess you are willing to bet your life on that....why not kill yourself the moment you see that you life is not going to hit a big high? Just reroll like an online game...hehe

Well at least it is your choice to reroll...can't say as much for the sucker who doesn't make it out of the womb.

I just thought of something...you wait in a line with billions decade after decade for your turn to be reborn and you roll craps and get aborted right back to the end of the line...hehe love it....

See ya in the next expansion....



edit on 8-6-2013 by Xtrozero because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2013 @ 05:12 AM
link   
reply to post by Xtrozero
 





Just reroll like an online game...hehe


I dont actually think aborted babies reincarnate, I think their souls dont exist until later in pregnancy and so they are only potential human beings, and aborting them is about as wrong as using a condom. So morally, that leads to similar conclusion, but without the "kill yourself the moment your life is below average to respawn" thing.




why not kill yourself the moment you see that you life is not going to hit a big high?


Nah, but I would choose euthanasia if my quality of life would be very low. As I said, I dont understand this worshipping of life above anything else, quality of life is important, too. "Life" is kind of a buzzword..



posted on Jun, 9 2013 @ 09:31 AM
link   
reply to post by Xtrozero
 





1.3 million abortions doesn't mean they are rare and doesn't mean everything has been tried before hand. The number in itself speaks....


What is this number? Where does it come from? Is that the number of abortions in the USA since Roe V Wade, per decade, per year, per day?

What does it mean to try everything before hand? Do you mean contraception? How does one try, for example, adoption before deciding on an abortion? How does one try having the baby before deciding on abortion?



posted on Jun, 9 2013 @ 09:55 AM
link   

Originally posted by Hopechest
A child is a child regardless if its in the womb or not.

Once the seed hits the egg it is a human and goddamn you for taking its life.

Sorry....I get emotional on this topic.


so the woman is not human, and does not have rights to govern what is inside her body, got it...in that case, all male babies shall have the their sperm tubes cut at birth. when it is time for creation after being duly married, the man shall have an operation to reattach the sperm tubes for procreation.



posted on Jun, 9 2013 @ 10:05 AM
link   
I believe that those who are pro-choice are more pro-life than the "pro-lifers". Abortion is murder and that child must be born no matter what. It does not matter what kind of life that child may be forced to live or that it may be better for it to not be born. Yet a good portion of those people who believe that are also against things like welfare. That child becomes unwanted if it is not straight or a follower of Christ. Oh, and if that child grows up to be a murderer they will gladly allow them to be murdered then.



posted on Jun, 9 2013 @ 10:15 AM
link   

Originally posted by jimmyx

Originally posted by Hopechest
A child is a child regardless if its in the womb or not.

Once the seed hits the egg it is a human and goddamn you for taking its life.

Sorry....I get emotional on this topic.


so the woman is not human, and does not have rights to govern what is inside her body, got it...in that case, all male babies shall have the their sperm tubes cut at birth. when it is time for creation after being duly married, the man shall have an operation to reattach the sperm tubes for procreation.


This member, Hopechest, is an example of the mindset that not only seeks to deprive women of their rights to determine what happens to their bodies after intercourse, but also before. Based on her conclusion that "Once the seed hits the egg it is a human and goddamn you for taking its life." she would also support the banning of "The Pill", "Norplant" injections, the "IUD" and the "Morning After Pill", ensuring more unwanted pregnancy and forcing women to bear those pregnancies to term, regardless of their wishes.




posted on Jun, 9 2013 @ 10:26 AM
link   
Im gonna have to agree with Benevolent Heretic on this one. Why should the government have a say on what an individual's choice is? We have already forfeited many of our "choices" to the governement already.

Many who have the pro-life stance are religious and there is nothing wrong with that. But what happend to seperation of church and state?



posted on Jun, 9 2013 @ 10:43 AM
link   
I am pro-life. I believe in the unalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in that order. Sorry your desire to have an abortion is secondary to the child you carry right to life.

"My body my choice." How about the innocent child with no voice? That child has a body, too. Abortion is taking a human life.

I have known many women who chose to keep their unplanned babies. I did casework with single Moms. Some placed them for adoption, back in the day. Not one ever regretted their decision to choose life, not one. Never, ever heard one of my clients say: "Wish I had an abortion. I made the wrong decision."

I mourn these lost lives. I don't condemn their mothers. I never walked a mile in their shoes.

I felt the pro-life movement made a big mistake by attempting to influence the legislative process. I watch so many politicians claim to be pro-life so they would get elected and be nothing of the sort when they won. I call it back-stabbing.

Education should have been their primary focus IMHO.

Being legal and ethical can be to very different things. Sadly, many assume that is okay because it is legal.

God bless and keep you all. Nothing is unforgivable.



posted on Jun, 9 2013 @ 10:52 AM
link   
reply to post by sad_eyed_lady
 





I have known many women who chose to keep their unplanned babies


Key word being "chose".




I felt the pro-life movement made a big mistake by attempting to influence the legislative process.


So am I correct in assuming that you are anti-abortion but that you are against legislation that would deny a woman the right to choice? If so, then you are pro-choice.



posted on Jun, 9 2013 @ 11:19 AM
link   

Originally posted by windword
What does it mean to try everything before hand? Do you mean contraception? How does one try, for example, adoption before deciding on an abortion? How does one try having the baby before deciding on abortion?


The number is per year in the US, not hard to figure it out. To try everything I'm saying after the person finds out they are pregnant. I look at birth control as something totally different here so unless you want to mix it in I'm not suggesting that. Everything is to look at all avenues available and eliminate each one before the final decision of abortion. I'm sure many women do this, but such as a number of 1.3 million abortions per year we have couples that wait years to adopt babies much less a new born, many go to China/Russia since it seems there isn't much hope for them here. This is a perfect example as to whether a mom should go full term or go the easy way out.



new topics

top topics



 
5
<< 1  2  3    5 >>

log in

join