Seek ye first, the Kingdom of Heaven

reply to post by Joecroft


Understanding and wisdom come through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes through faith in and the pursuit of Christ.
You can't identify something unless you know what you're looking at. If you don't know what you're looking at, then you can't understand it. You don't know where to find something unless you know where to look. Even if you know where to look, you still won't find it unless you know what you're looking for.

Knowing His Kingdom through comprehension and knowing His Kingdom by observation are mutually inclusive.

We are told to seek Wisdom at all costs. We are told that the beginning of Wisdom is knowing God and having the reverential awe of God.
Jesus says to seek first the kingdom. We seek the kingdom by knowing God. We understand His kingdom through the reverential awe and respectful and mindful fear of His glory, goodness and authority.

reply to post by Joecroft


For everyone that believes in reincarnation I implore you to consider that Jesus was teaching us how to enter into a kingdom of heaven that is present here on earth.

When Jesus said you must be born again of water and spirit, he is talking about two different times in one's life. This is absolutely not in any way pointing to reincarnation. I know because I have been born again, this may sound crazy but I imagine very few have truly experienced this.

The problem for those of you that believe in reincarnation and the view that each of these verse point to reincarnation, is you don't believe in the resurrected spirit.

Acts 19:2 "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" he asked them. "No," they replied, "we haven't even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

You must believe in the indwelling of the spirit of Christ to receive it. You must accept that love is the only path and repent for all acts done against love. You must truly accept that your actions are deserving of death and you must be ready to receive the resurrected spirit. The one who receives the resurrected spirit will himself be resurrected in sprit.

God said we die when we sin; the death is death of the spirit/love inside us. When we sin we enter into an emotional hell away from the love of God. Repentance brings back the resurrected spirit of love into one's life.

The kingdom of heaven is the kingdom of love. You cannot find the kingdom of love until you have first accepted the resurrected spirit and learn how to love. Paul says that he worships in spirit and in mind. When he worships in spirit it's for himself but when he is in his sound mind it is for your benefit.

2 Corinthians 5-13 If we are "out of our mind," as some say, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you.

Pair this verse with "to go in and out" and you can understand that Christ and Paul are speaking of the same thing.

Jesus says only the father knows the time or day, although the Spirit of Love, the Christ, is always near you and waiting at the door for you.

The rest of this you will either take with faith or you will take as madness; it is really up to you. I don't know how to share this message without sounding self righteous. I don't know why me, nor do I believe that I am any better than anyone else. I simply believe I have a purpose to help others.

I have been born again. When you are born again, you have a complete change of heart; it is as though you begin to see the world through the eyes of a child again. You can see and feel unconditional love for everyone you meet. You feel sadness for those around you who keep themselves away from love by the things they do. Empathy for others becomes a very strong source of emotion. You become driven to help others find the love you have.

I think for some this is where the journey ends, at least from a conscious standpoint.

For some like Paul and myself we have been blessed with a slightly different view. What Paul is talking about is a sort of deep mediation and prayer that is purely spiritual. When someone is truly praying in the spirit, they are having communion with God, and the feeling is pure joy, that comes from pure love.

This is how to enter heaven, however no one can enter heaven without first being brought to heaven. No one can enter heaven without first having been there. I did not wander into pure spiritual prayer that leads to joy, I was most certainly taken their by the Spirit of Love, Christ himself. And I was allowed to sit on the thrown of pure joy that comes from pure love.

Now that I have been there I can return there when I want or need to. I understand how to pray in the spirit and in a very real way leave this world and enter into God's love, which is Joy.

I come in and out of heaven, like a blowing of the wind. You do not know when I am in my right mind for your sake or when I am in spirit for the sake of Joy. But for sake of those around me, so I don't appear completely mad, I prefer mostly to stay in my right mind, even though it keeps me from pure Joy.

When one prays in the spirit, one is conversing with God about heavenly concepts that were previously not understood. This is called speaking in tongues, because without interpretation even the one praying may be confused. When one learns both to converse with God and to interpret/understand the message, then one can find pure joy in the message.

Each of these concepts go together, but until you accept that a better life, a life filled by the Spirit of Love that leads to pure Joy awaits, you won't completely understand.

reply to post by Akragon

I don't understand why people can't see this... Can you go in a barn and out at the same time?

IF you return to earth... will you not eventually return to Heaven IF you've already been there?

The sheep pen is the safe place to spend the night. The pasture is where the food is.

Jesus says he is the gate and the shepherd. Once going through him as the gate, you then follow him in and out for food. There's nothing here about dying. It's about living in the Kingdom now. How? Because Jesus is here with us in the Kingdom, now. No dying required.

" John 20:21 Jesus therefore said to them again, "“Peace be to you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”" 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "“Receive the Holy Spirit! "

The disciples didn't have to die before being sent by Jesus. According to my religion Jesus is not sitting on a throne, he's still the shepherd leading. Perhaps he is the Holy Spirit. Perhaps this story is told in this way as a metaphor for how the transition happened, from man shepherd to Holy Spirit shepherd. He's still the shepherd, and we are not alone.

The kingdom is not the land of the dead, but the land of the living.

reply to post by sacgamer25


But you couldn't have "gone there" the first time without having been there before. How can you have possibly been to heaven a first time when you needed to have gone before that? Eternal reincarnation is the only answer to that question.

Born again has nothing to do with this life, it has everything to do with the next life. To be born again is to be born again. The simplest answer is most likely the most correct, and you convoluting what born again means is not helping your case out any.

Paul and his people are the ones who began convoluting Jesus' message, he was not a saint, he was a wolf in sheep's clothing. You said before thaf anything other than love is religion (which you hate), which makes me wonder why You love Paul so much when he invented modern day Christianity with his letters.

He taught much more than just love, meaning he taught religion (in your own words), so why do you continue to cling to his words? He was a liar, no doubt about it.

reply to post by sacgamer25

If I had known that you were typing this up, I could have saved myself the trouble.

For everyone that believes in reincarnation I implore you to consider that Jesus was teaching us how to enter into a kingdom of heaven that is present here on earth.

And all you people who believe in reincarnation should know that if that's the way it works, that's the natural process. Being born again is supra/supernatural.

The way's of the Kingdom are not the ways of death.

reply to post by sacgamer25

No one can enter heaven without first having been there. I did not wander into pure spiritual prayer that leads to joy, I was most certainly taken their by the Spirit of Love, Christ himself. And I was allowed to sit on the thrown of pure joy that comes from pure love.

Don't forget to tell us that it is not a rocket ship ride into outer space. We need to hear that too. Because God is not "out there somewhere" He's where we are.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


This is what I mean, you don't believe in the resurrected spirit. You cannot receive merely because you do not believe. You live a life based on merit, where what you do in life shapes your next life. I live a life based in forgiveness and Grace and know that God unconditionally loves me apart from merit. It is this belief that makes me want to deserve heaven. I want to pursue love because God's love is only found when you pursue love. Love others, this is the command.

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

Revelation 3:21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Look at these verses they say the words that I have given you. Jesus said no one has ever gone into heaven except himself, the Son/love of man. Then he says that he has authority to both give life and to give the right to sit on his thrown which is in heaven. No one before Christ had been to heaven, they were not even aware of how to get there. The Spirit of Love, Christ is the door; until someone shows one the door it is unlikely that anyone could find it.

I am claiming that I have obeyed Christ's message to love others. And in doing so he has granted me life and even sat me down next to him on his thrown, which is pure joy from pure love. Heaven is an emotional state of mind, Joy. Heaven is the place where one finds life and becomes aware of his responsibility as a child of God.

What I say does not go against the message. When I pray in the spirit I do find myself filled with Joy, an escape from this world, Heaven. The place where I follow Christ and will continue to do so.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Born again has nothing to do with this life, it has everything to do with the next life. To be born again is to be born again. The simplest answer is most likely the most correct, and you convoluting what born again means is not helping your case out any.

What next life? Reincarnation is an endless loop. Reincarnation is not being born from above. Why wait for a break in the loop? Anyway, I'll have to leave the alter calls to sacgamer. I'm no good at it.

reply to post by pthena


The next life that you live, of course! This is not the first and will not be the last. Being born from above is to be born through reincarnation in my opinion.

Think of the sky as "above", now imagine living on a planet somewhere in the sky from Earth's perspective, then imagine being reincarnated from that other planet to Earth. Your reincarnation is seen as being born from above because you came from another planet "above" Earth.

I think you can make sense of that.

reply to post by sacgamer25


I absolutely DO believe in the resurrected spirit, isn't that what I've been saying this whole time? Or do you not listen? Our spirits have already been resurrected through reincarnation. Reincarnation was a huge part of Christianity before Nicaea, you may want to look into it.

Didn't you just say that you went to heaven in your last post through spiritual prayer? Now you're saying only Jesus has been there.

No offense, but make up your mind.

I see that you didn't address the Paul part of my post. If everything else besides love is religion, then why do you hold onto Paul's words so tightly?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Originally posted by 3NLIGHT3ND1
It would also explain this verse within the bible:


Matthew 18
18 "Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

What's bound/loosed on Earth will be bound/loosed in Heaven because Earth sits within heaven. The only difference between the two is that the inhabitants of Earth have been taught otherwise, which is why Jesus says this:

I absolutely agree…Earth is within Heaven, and is actually a part of Gods Kingdom…IMO

John 14:2
In My Father’s house are many mansions;…

From the Gospel of Judas…

Jesus said, “[Come], that I may teach you about [secrets] no person [has] ever seen. For there exists a great and boundless realm, whose extent no generation of angels has seen,
[in which] there is [a] great invisible [Spirit],
which no eye of an angel has ever seen,
no thought of the heart has ever comprehended,
and it was never called by any name.

The word “mansions” in John 14:2 is more accurately translated as “dwelling place”

I actually believe that there are an infinite number of realms/dwelling places, which make up Gods Kingdom…

Some of these worlds I think are like our own, and others, are as the “Gospel of Judas” describes, and they cannot even be comprehended.

Regarding the differences, I believe that there are other dwelling places, which are fallen worlds, just like Earth. By fallen worlds, I mean worlds where the majority of its inhabitants, live without the knowledge of their divine connection to God. Because of this, they walk in darkness, not knowing themselves, or the Father.

Psalms 82:5-7
They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.
I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.”

Originally posted by 3NLIGHT3ND1
John 3
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’


The reason no one sees the Kingdom is because we have been taught otherwise, that it only comes after this life. He was speaking of this planet's blindness to its true place in heaven.

Again, totally agree…The Kingdom is meant to become known now!, when one becomes born from above, or born from God.

Originally posted by 3NLIGHT3ND1
To be born again is to literally be born again, through reincarnation. To be born of water and spirit is to be born from your mother's water (amniotic fluid), and be born with a soul/spirit. No need for baptism in my opinion

The real Baptism is the baptism of the “Holy Spirit”, the physical water baptism, is just an outward symbolic expression, of the true spiritual baptism.

To be Born Again, means to be born from above, or born from God. Check out my last reply to pthena.

Gnostic Christians believed in 2 forms of resurrection, one being physical reincarnation. The other was a spiritual resurrection, which they believed led to eternal life, which was kind of their version of being “saved”. Once a person achieved this spiritual resurrection, they believed they would no longer have to go through the constant death and bodily rebirth.


- JC

I just want to thank everyone for their replies so far…I will try to get round to answering a few of them…


To be honest, I wasn’t really expecting this thread to take off, like it has…


And thanks Jmdewey for those links… much appreciated…


- JC

reply to post by DISRAELI

Originally posted by DISRAELI
Another way of understanding "enter" is in terms of "entering a relationship".
Remember that Mark and Luke talk about "the kingdom of God".
"Kingdom of heaven" is commonly explained as Matthew deferring to an intended Jewish readership, who would prefer avoiding the use of God's name and replacing it with a euphemism like "heaven".
"The kingdom [BASILEIA] of God" would be "the state of affairs in which God rules".
So to enter the kingdom of God is to enter a state of affairs in which God rules over you; to enter a good relationship with God, replacing a bad or non-existent relationship.

Yes, entering into a relationship is the key aspect, to being born of God.
Because it’s essentially a two way process, between your own spirit, and Gods Spirit.


- JC

reply to post by WashMoreFeet

Originally posted by WashMoreFeet
Understanding and wisdom come through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes through faith in and the pursuit of Christ.

I have received the Holy Spirit and have been born from On High…I have experienced the rivers of living water, as described by Jesus, in the verse John 7:38…

Originally posted by WashMoreFeet
Knowing His Kingdom through comprehension and knowing His Kingdom by observation are mutually inclusive.

Thanks for expanding on why you think it’s both. Thing is, I believe it’s both too, but for slightly different reasons.

I believe that on the day I became born again, is the day that I entered the Kingdom of Heaven. In other words, it’s not something I’m trying to earn, or somewhere I’m trying to get too etc…, it’s something I have became a part of, now, today!.

Originally posted by WashMoreFeet
We are told to seek Wisdom at all costs. We are told that the beginning of Wisdom is knowing God and having the reverential awe of God.
Jesus says to seek first the kingdom. We seek the kingdom by knowing God. We understand His kingdom through the reverential awe and respectful and mindful fear of His glory, goodness and authority.

Yes I agree, we seek the Kingdom, by seeking the way, the truth, and the life. And you’re right, Knowledge, Wisdom and Understanding comes directly from the Spirit of God. As for fear part…I don’t believe God has anything to do with fear at all. Perfect love, drives out All fear…

Proverbs 9:10…Should be more correctly rendered as…

Flowing in the Spirit of the LORD, is the beginning of Wisdom…

Or…

Receiving the Spirit of LORD, is the beginning of Wisdom…


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

I believe that on the day I became born again, is the day that I entered the Kingdom of Heaven. In other words, it’s not something I’m trying to earn, or somewhere I’m trying to get too etc…, it’s something I have became a part of, now, today!.

I was looking for somewhere to interject some old world-views and the new World-view that Jesus introduced (If it was first introduced by him)

There was a very old view of death involving hades as a dumping ground for shades of the dead (underworld). Jesus flipped that over so the souls go to heaven. But some people still think in terms of a holding cave nicked into heaven, (isolation bubble, hades in the air instead of in the ground) where souls just sit there age after age after age awaiting some resurrection.

That's a total waste of humanity to have them sitting doing nothing. What Jesus seems to offer is a living kingdom, wherein no human spirit is wasted in non-utility, but rather, still active in the kingdom.

If there's some holding tank for spirits waiting for something to happen, that's nothing I know about.

The kingdom is about life now, not waiting to die so as to sit waiting again, what a waste that would be!

I hope that makes sense to people, because otherwise I'd have to write a bunch more, and I'm kind of working on something else at the moment.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Originally posted by Jmdewey
That's in Matthew 7:21
interlinearbible.org...
If you go to the page in the biblos web site for that verse, and click on the form that it appears in that verse, you get:
εἰσελεύσεται (eiseleusetai) — 3 Occurrences
One of those is the one you were looking at, another is used in the same way, entering into the kingdom, the third is in John 10:9,

I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

which may make one wonder what in the world Jesus is talking about. Going back out . . what?
Hopefully not some sort of reincarnation, that of course couldn't be what he meant!

I completely overlooked this…thanks for brining it up.

I’ve been following the discussion between yourself, Akragon, and DISRAELI and I’m not really sure what to make of it (John 10:9)

The only quick conclusion I can think of, is that “the come in" part, is about entering into the Kingdom, and the “going out” part, is to do with leaving/coming out of the old world.

Simply put, a coming out of this world, and into the Kingdom etc…

- JC

Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by jmdewey60

jmdewey60I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. which may make one wonder what in the world Jesus is talking about. Going back out . . what?
Hopefully not some sort of reincarnation, that of course couldn't be what he meant!

Joecroft
The only quick conclusion I can think of, is that “the come in" part, is about entering into the Kingdom, and the “going out” part, is to do with leaving/coming out of the old world. Simply put, a coming out of this world, and into the Kingdom etc…- JC

Jesus was skilled in speaking and writing three languages, studied coptic, Greek and Hebrew; yet did not leave a single manuscript behind. His kingdom was the internal diologe YOU must have within yourself and between your maker. Paul called him the Greek 'Christos' He was NOT, this was Pagan gamesmanship to appease or trick the Romans into thinking this "christianity" was enough of an Olympian forecasting to quell the Jewish traditions. Behind all of this is pagan mythology; I can think one specifically, Mithras (and there are so many others). The KINGDOM is within you and discovering that relationship with God (it exists) or his twin Intellegent design. Jesus of Nazareth was a rebel leader, not the Son of God. He was an Essene and would cringe today being proclaimed as what thousands upon millions of Churches today defend their being foundation upon. He was not crucified on a cross, but on a T form; FIRST BIG LIE. The Church of Paul was founded upon deception, powermongering and (he should have intuited it the hundreds of years of eventual future landgrabs, murder and corruption). Hi Joe, how have you been?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

I absolutely DO believe in the resurrected spirit, isn't that what I've been saying this whole time? Or do you not listen? Our spirits have already been resurrected through reincarnation. Reincarnation was a huge part of Christianity before Nicaea, you may want to look into it.

Didn't you just say that you went to heaven in your last post through spiritual prayer? Now you're saying only Jesus has been there.

No offense, but make up your mind.

I see that you didn't address the Paul part of my post. If everything else besides love is religion, then why do you hold onto Paul's words so tightly

2000 years ago Jesus paved the way for men to reach the state of heaven on earth. Spiritual Heaven is a realm of pure love, anyone who follows the path of love will find heaven on earth. Because heaven is the emotional state of Joy that comes through the knowledge of the Spirit of Love, (Christ Jesus, the Holy Spirit)

Prior to Christ no one had been to heaven except the one who came from Heaven, Christ himself. The Spirit of Love dwelt with the father in heaven, within all men. Then he came to earth as Christ Jesus, the Spirit of Love, the true savior of all men.

On earth he came to teach men how to love. The father promised him that anyone who would obey his message that he could make himself known too. Jesus Christ has made himself known to me, he is the Holy Spirit, and he is the spirit of love. He also promised that he could give us the right to sit with him on his thrown. So to say that he took me to heaven to sit on the thrown of Joy does not contradict scripture in any way. The way to heaven was made known to me because I believed in his message. I loved others just like he said.

The Spirit of Love, Christ Jesus, is the perfect reflection of God's love for mankind. Willing to lay down his life for ours. As disciples of Christ we are asked to become like him and lay down our lives for others. Thus as Christ understood through the resurrection all men would come to truly believe, he sacrificed himself to bleed to death on the Cross. For without the resurrection his message would have been lost.

He was raised to life for our benefit, so that we may believe that those who are dead to sin may become alive in Christ. That all who pursue love may find life in the Spirit of Love, the Holy Spirit, Christ Jesus.

My views do not contradict yours. You can accept spiritual rebirth today and still believe in reincarnation tomorrow. You are alive today so live as one who is a child of God. Live as a man who has been promised eternal love and eternal life. Let the unconditional love of the father fill you, and pursue the father.

There is only one way to worship the lord, to love one another. The only way to understand rebirth of the spirit today, is to love one another. Eliminate all things in one's life that are contrary to love so that one may become one with the spirit of love.

When anyone chooses to eliminate everything that is contrary to love, they have become disciples of love. When one chooses to be a disciple of love, one will find the spirit of love. Once one finds the spirit of love everything else becomes religion.

Pursue only love, separate yourself from sin, and you will find the spirit of the resurrected Christ within you. All will be made known to you. Because it is Christ himself who is the teacher, I can only take you to the door. You must enter and be taught directly by the Spirit of love, from within.

reply to post by sacgamer25



I know that you are Born Again, and have for sometime. I too have been born from above, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

And like yourself, I have been blessed with a completely different view, a view incidentally, that is surprisingly very similar to your own. Although I know there will be differences…there always is lol

Originally posted by Sacgamer
For everyone that believes in reincarnation I implore you to consider that Jesus was teaching us how to enter into a kingdom of heaven that is present here on earth.

When Jesus said you must be born again of water and spirit, he is talking about two different times in one's life. This is absolutely not in any way pointing to reincarnation. I know because I have been born again, this may sound crazy but I imagine very few have truly experienced this.

“Two different times in ones life”…

Can you explain…?

Originally posted by Sacgamer
The problem for those of you that believe in reincarnation and the view that each of these verse point to reincarnation, is you don't believe in the resurrected spirit.


Acts 19:2 "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" he asked them. "No," they replied, "we haven't even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

The Christian Gnostics believed in both reincarnation/resurrection and a Spiritual resurrection as well. Have you ever considered the possibility that both are possible/true…?

Originally posted by Sacgamer
You must believe in the indwelling of the spirit of Christ to receive it. You must accept that love is the only path and repent for all acts done against love. You must truly accept that your actions are deserving of death and you must be ready to receive the resurrected spirit. The one who receives the resurrected spirit will himself be resurrected in sprit.

I knew nothing of an indwelling Spirit, before becoming born again, although I did witness the tongues of fire in my house, on the night I received the Holy Spirit.

You’re right though; one must accept the way of love, and truth, that comes from God through Jesus message, in order to become in union, with God the Father. This is in turn, is related to coming to know whom Jesus, and the Father are. This union is not something that can be faked, because God knows when your heart is open and ready to receive it.

Originally posted by Sacgamer
Jesus says only the father knows the time or day, although the Spirit of Love, the Christ, is always near you and waiting at the door for you.

The rest of this you will either take with faith or you will take as madness; it is really up to you. I don't know how to share this message without sounding self righteous. I don't know why me, nor do I believe that I am any better than anyone else. I simply believe I have a purpose to help others.

You sound perfectly fine to me.

God showed me vision a long time ago, right at the start of my spiritual journey. It was a vision of a stone spiral staircase, like an old castle turret…I was winding up each step, which went up from left to right, and when I reached the top, I went right through the roof and right up into the bright blue sky…and that’s when the vision ended.

At the time, I didn’t know what the vision was meant to signify…I few years later I was talking to friend, who worked as an architect. He mentioned that those castles turrets were built for defensive purposes. And that they were specifically built from right to left, so as to enable the defenders of the castle, to swing their swords more easily towards oncoming attacking invaders;

I suddenly realized that what God was showing me, was that he was going to break down all my defenses, step by step…which is exactly what He has done…

Not sure why I’m bringing this up…just felt right to share it….


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft


Born of water, born in the natural way, the mothers water breaks.

Born of Spirit, is to be born again. As physical water baptism by immersion is a ritual that has value but is not a prerequisite to being born again.

Yes, I have considered reincarnation and resurrection are true. I personally prefer the one and done simply because to me that appears more loving. But I accept that both are possible and that reincarnation is in no way against scripture.

I guess you are correct, you wouldn't need to believe in anything more than it is best to love one another, and of course you must be ready. The father knows when you are ready so that would be enough. After all the spirit of love should come to anyone who truly believes in love as a way of life.

Yes he does break down the defenses step by step. When you learn to realize this it does become a little easier because you start to look for the answer immediately. And when you are ready you find it. I look back at the journey and am amazed the care he took and continues to take in teaching me. Quite literally one small step at a time.

Except for the initial shock of confusion, so that you know for certain. LOL