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Seek ye first, the Kingdom of Heaven

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posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 02:27 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon
 

the words IN and OUT... are they not opposites in greek?

Or are there no words for them?
They are prepositions, which in Greek comes from an idea of direction, so those are opposites.


excellent...

How does one go back and forth at the same time... OR left and right... up and down?

he shall be saved, and shall go in AND out, and find pasture

IF he is the door to the kingdom... and HE gets you in...

Would this not mean you can also go out (return) and still find peace?





posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 02:30 AM
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Originally posted by Akragon
the words IN and OUT... are they not opposites in greek?

We need to remember that these writers are Jews, and their modes of expression are influenced by the Hebrew.
"Go in and come out" , used in the Old Testament, can simply mean "move about freely".
A good example is Deuteronomy ch31 v2;
"I am a hundred and twenty years old this day; I am no longer able to go out and come in".
What Moses means is that he's not as nimble on his feet as he used to be.
The actual direction of movement is not relevant to the point he's making.
So "they can go in and come out" means "they have a state of freedom".



posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 02:33 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 

How does one go back and forth at the same time...
There is the word "and" between the going in and the going out parts.
The way I understand what Jesus was doing is that instead of him explaining how all these different things are supposed to work exactly, he is mainly emphasizing the aspect that the one who was expected to fulfill all these things was none other than himself.



posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 02:34 AM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 


But it doesn't say go in and come out...

New American Standard (©1995)
"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
King James Bible
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

American King James Version
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

American Standard Version
I am the door; by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture.

Darby Bible Translation
I am the door: if any one enter in by me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and shall go out and shall find pasture.

English Revised Version
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture.

Webster's Bible Translation
I am the door: by me if any man shall enter he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

World English Bible
I am the door. If anyone enters in by me, he will be saved, and will go in and go out, and will find pasture.

Young's Literal Translation
I am the door, through me if any one may come in, he shall be saved, and he shall come in, and go out, and find pasture.

And in that circumstance there is no intvitation... "I am no longer able to go out and come in"

You said it right there.... "move about freely"


edit on 5-6-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 02:37 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon
 

How does one go back and forth at the same time...
There is the word "and" between the going in and the going out parts.
The way I understand what Jesus was doing is that instead of him explaining how all these different things are supposed to work exactly, he is mainly emphasizing the aspect that the one who was expected to fulfill all these things was none other than himself.


Yes but again... Once you're IN anything... you can not be going OUT at the same time...

They are opposites right?

And IF no one can enter "heaven" without coming from heaven... what else is there?




posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 02:42 AM
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Originally posted by Joecroft
The “enter” word is a curious one. In fact, even in John 3:3 mentioned in my OP, the word “see” is rendered as (“enter” the Kingdom) in a few other Bible translations.

Another way of understanding "enter" is in terms of "entering a relationship".
Remember that Mark and Luke talk about "the kingdom of God".
"Kingdom of heaven" is commonly explained as Matthew deferring to an intended Jewish readership, who would prefer avoiding the use of God's name and replacing it with a euphemism like "heaven".
"The kingdom [BASILEIA] of God" would be "the state of affairs in which God rules".
So to enter the kingdom of God is to enter a state of affairs in which God rules over you; to enter a good relationship with God, replacing a bad or non-existent relationship.


edit on 5-6-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 02:48 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 

The exact verbs used are not important to the point I was making.
"Moving in and out" as a Hebraism for "free movement".
1 Kings ch15 v17, another.




edit on 5-6-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 02:49 AM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Akragon
 

The exact verbs used are not important to the point I was making.
"Moving in and out" as a Hebraism for "free movement".
1 Kings ch15 v17, another.




edit on 5-6-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)


So...

IF you chose to leave "heaven" you would not be allowed?

DO you recall any passage that might imply that?




posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 02:51 AM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 

"Go in and come out" , used in the Old Testament, can simply mean "move about freely".
A good example is Deuteronomy ch31 v2;

rather than 1525 in the John verse, the one in Deut. is 1531, εἰσπορεύομαι, which means to journey, which goes along with the topic, which is traveling over the Jordan.
So it means something a bit more than just "going in".
edit on 5-6-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 02:54 AM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 

In Joshua ch14 v11, Joshua insists that he still has strength, though he is eighty-five years old, for "going and coming".
Again, the point is obviously the ability to move. The direction of movement is not important.



posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 02:55 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 

American Standard Version
I am the door; by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture.


That would be the way the Greek says it, with the word "to go in", and the word "and", and the word for "to go out".

edit on 5-6-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 02:57 AM
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Originally posted by Akragon
So...

IF you chose to leave "heaven" you would not be allowed?

DO you recall any passage that might imply that?

a) How do yoiu find that statement in the words i used?
I'm not going to bother defending statements I haven't made.

b) Why would anyone want to?



posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 03:00 AM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by DISRAELI
 

In Joshua ch14 v11, Joshua insists that he still has strength, though he is eighty-five years old, for "going and coming".
Again, the point is obviously the ability to move. The direction of movement is not important.



Lets look at the context of the conversation here...

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.


He is speaking about the path to "heaven"... the "direct" one.... the perfect one... his way, his truth... his "life"...

All others don't quite "get it"...

Now if he is the best path... and once you hit your "goal" you are "free" to move as you please...

what else is there?



edit on 5-6-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 03:01 AM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by Akragon
So...

IF you chose to leave "heaven" you would not be allowed?

DO you recall any passage that might imply that?

a) How do yoiu find that statement in the words i used?
I'm not going to bother defending statements I haven't made.

b) Why would anyone want to?



Im not asking you to defend your position... I just asked you a simple question?

you don't have to answer...



posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 03:06 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 

You're not quoting the original text of the Deuteronomy verse, which would be in Hebrew.
As I've observed, the exact verbs used are beside the point. The point is "moving in and out" as a Hebraism for freedom to move, a Hebrew thought which the gospel writers would translate into greek by their own lights.


Look at the whole verse and grasp what the speaker is trying to say;
He is so old that her doesn't find it easy to move, and that is why he now appoints a fresh leader in Joshua.





edit on 5-6-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 03:07 AM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 

In Joshua ch14 v11, Joshua insists that he still has strength, though he is eighty-five years old, for "going and coming".
I don't know what translation you are reading.
It has Joshua saying that he is able to go and to enter into battle.
He isn't saying "coming and going".
edit on 5-6-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 03:08 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon
 

American Standard Version
I am the door; by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture.


That would be the way the Greek says it, with the word "to go in", and the word "and", and the word for "to go out".

edit on 5-6-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


So does that combination of words imply freedom like DISRAELI said... or does it imply that one is trapped in "heaven"?




posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 03:10 AM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 



The above word is translated as “see”, but as well as being used literally (to see literally) the same exact word, is also used figuratively, to imply being aware, beholding, consider, know, perceive and understand etc….
From God to Humans:

"See as it can be seen here on ATS,thy Kingdom of Heavens."



posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 03:10 AM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 


I disagree, Hebrew is not necessarily the "original" language of the Old Testament.
Greek is what the New Testament was written in, so it is helpful, I think, to see what it says in the version that the NT writers were reading it in, and in that case, what form the words are in does matter.
Plus, these are not just in a different form, they are two completely different words.
edit on 5-6-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 03:13 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 

It is possible to move freely around a place without leaving it.
I have the freedom of my house; I can go in and come out of my bedroom. But this going in and coming out does not imply that I'm leaving the house.

You asked me if I could find a passage backing up the statement you thought I had made, so I took that as challenging me to provide a source.



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