Gay marriage and families

Well Im for kids haveing a loving family straight or gay.. but I do have an example of a negative..
I know a lesbian couple that are very very anti male...and they adopted a little girl.
You cannot tell me for an instant that they will not be imposing their views on men on that little girl. Now you say thats about what a regular straight couple do with their views.. however since this girl is now a young teen she has experimented with other girls and doesnt like it and proclaimed herself straight.
I doubt that she would have experimented with the same sex had she been brought up by a straight couple..(my opinion)
Is this bad...dont know I personally just dont like it..would she have experimented with same sex partner maybe...but I doubt it would have happened int high school..

just food for thought...

reply to post by Hopechest

Originally posted by Hopechest
Yes I'm sure they could handle it but it doesn't replace having your mom in the house.

See the difference?

No. Having a loving parent explain what's going on and comfort and celebrate with the child is what's important.

Can Two Dads be Enough?

I remember that from the time when adoption was just a remote possibility, until our first couple of years together as a family, I would look to those future moments with my daughter and think that there are just some times when Jay and I won't be be able to give Selena those important female rites of passage.
...
This means that we had resolved that there were just some moments when we were going to have to rely on the women around us in our lives to help Selena through those steps to womanhood. We made sure that there would be lots of aunts, grandmas, and friends that would be ready to lend a hand when those moments came.

reply to post by Hopechest

Originally posted by Hopechest
My sympathies to you for having to witness that.

You're not even reading my posts... :shk:

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


This is kinda my point.

Having to go out and provide this is different than having it at home.

Sure they can take care of it but its not the same.

I want my mom there.

reply to post by Hopechest

Originally posted by Hopechest
My mother died when I was very young so I was raised by my father and I remember when I was 13 and had my first bleeding I ran out to him because I was scared.
...
I want my mom there.

Perhaps your right.

Logic often conflicts with how we were raised and I should realize that.

It's easy to wax philosophical on restricting others' rights when you are not in their shoes personally. Most of it is the lack of empathy, but life has a way of curing it one way or the other. Then you have those who oppose equality for others, purely because it feels good to feel superior to other humans at least this one time in their lives. And the rest hurl tired, old cliches so long as it makes them feel more intelligent than they actually are.

reply to post by Romeo1


Look, for each anecdote like this there are countless counter- examples from straight families.

Originally posted by Romeo1

I know a lesbian couple that are very very anti male...and they adopted a little girl.

You cannot tell me for an instant that they will not be imposing their views on men on that little girl.

Now you say thats about what a regular straight couple do with their views.. however since this girl is now a young teen she has experimented with other girls and doesnt like it and proclaimed herself straight.
I doubt that she would have experimented with the same sex had she been brought up by a straight couple..(my opinion)
Is this bad...dont know I personally just dont like it..would she have experimented with same sex partner maybe...but I doubt it would have happened int high school..

just food for thought...

Present Tense
"I know a lesbian couple that are very very anti male...and they adopted a little girl."

Future Tense
"You cannot tell me for an instant that they will not be imposing their views on men on that little girl."

And then you go back to the Present Tense! I am not saying it didn't happen but you do make it kind of difficult to believe!

You doubt and you doubt!
Supposition does not make a fact!

Here's another beautiful tribute from an 18-year-old son of two loving gay parents.



I say we listen to the kids.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I say we listen to the kids.

They're the least brainwashed, the least conditioned. Their the best people to ask for an opinion, so therefore I agree.

reply to post by Hopechest


1 - I was also raised by my father because my mother decided having a child wasn't her "thing" when I was an infant. My uncle and grandfather also had parental roles in my life. None of these men were married while I was growing up.

The situation you described happened to me, as well, but I knew what was going on because I was educated about my body. I told my father and went to the store. Can't tell you how sorry I am that your father was so very, very immature. Many men are. It's a HUGE fault with U.S. culture. (My father is Russian) Perhaps American men shouldn't be allowed to have daughters if they can't treat them more considerately? You had a horrible experience.... Let's stop that from happening ever again.

2 - You don't know what would happen in homosexual families because they aren't allowed to happen. No one will EVER know what would happen if we can't allow people to be themselves and find out.

As adults, we somehow have forgotten the absolute TORTURE some kids go through every day they walk through those school doors...I commented in another thread about this very thing...I was raised with 2 moms and I love my mothers, of this there is NO doubt, I want them to be happy, married, equal in every way that pertains to THEIR lives...but do you HONESTLY think I could have ever told them of the daily jokes, puns, and ridicule I had to endure because THEY were gay? Of course not, especially when the very subject centered around the whole "gay" issue. Did I have a good family? Well, yes, they loved me very much and I had oodles of adopted Aunts, Uncles, Things and Its-LOL-I say this in humor-they know who they are....but it took me a LONG time and lots of therapy to come back to the fold after I moved out at 17....I still have not told my mothers about my therapy...KIDS ARE CRUEL and some adults aren''t too top notch either....We are forcing a situation on children that are too young to have a choice in the matter....because I'll be honest, I would have traded 2 gay mothers for a single parent or opposite spouse ANY day....You have NO IDEA the tears that fall from childrens eyes when they are not always near you...and the last thing any child wants to do is tell their parents they are the cause of it...I can only speak FOR ME, no one else...I have no desire to debate with anyone one on one, just wanted some of you to read a firsthand account from one side of the issue-please note I did say, ONE SIDE of the issue, which means I DO understand there are other views and I respect those as well...

reply to post by rockhndr


I don't wish to argue with you. Because you're right. Kids can be cruel. I endured HORRIBLE bullying and teasing when I was a kid. For other reasons. Many kids do.

But the reason for this is that gay parents are not accepted as part of a normal society... Yet... And that's the goal, IMO. Not to deny citizens equal rights or to deny children loving homes because other people are too closed-minded, judgmental and hurtful to understand.

Disabled kids get bullied. Kids who wear glasses, fat kids, tall kids, skinny kids - they all get their share of cruelty aimed at them by other kids who are just trying to find their place in the world.

If you had had straight parents, they would have found other things to bully you about. Because that's the way kids are.

reply to post by Hopechest

Does a gay couple present the situations that a typical husband and wife do? Does a child lose out on anything without having a mom in the house per se?

There are no guarantees in life - you could lose a mother or father - death, divorce - or have both or neither of them be good parents. Kids get raised by steps, grandparents, aunts and uncles...

And, something we all forget - kids have been raised by gay parents for centuries - just nobody knew (and they didn't know the difference either)

All kids need is someone that looks out for them, loves them unconditionally - parents are so much more than their genders

nowadays,The word LOVE is so cheap !

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


So basically what you are saying is that because all children get bullied in some way, that it is OK to put a child in a situation that the higher possibility for bullying is there? I am very surprised at this thought...and once again will re-iterate that a child idolizes their parents in some shape or form and most would never approach their parents to explain the pain the child is going through on behalf of the ADULTS choices....it is one thing to talk to your parents, gay or straight and tell them you are being bullied for eyeglasses, braces, etc. It is a TOTALLY NEW ballgame to tell your GAYparents that THEIR choices are what are harming you most in your psychological childhood years....go google adults of gay parents and just see how many support groups there are...then tell me these kids are under "normal" bullying....I do understand your point on bullying, but it really is different for these kids, myself included-I talked to my mothers about everything....everything BUT the daily dealings that occurred due to their choices...NO child wants to hurt their parent...EVER
and with this I'm out...I wish to not be a part of these blow up debates....I truly just wanted people to see WHY this is such a touchy subject....kids won't hurt their parents, gay or not...so for anyone to get any real truth about how these kids REALLY feel, it would have to be done once the child is an adult and by then the damage is already done...To this very day I would NEVER hurt my mothers by sharing this stuff with them...they were good parents, but what kind of person did I turn into in keeping these things to myself?? One who needed therapy due to the very FACT that I couldn't talk to my parents about "everything" It creates quite the catch-22 for the kids

Originally posted by Hopechest

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by Hopechest

 

Originally posted by Hopechest
The question is though, is a poor woman/man relationship able to provide more than a perfect man/man, woman/woman relationship simply by the different ideals they will teach?

You simply cannot generalize by gender. Gender is not the deciding factor in ANY parental abilities. What's important is a loving home, where the child's needs come first. Where the people (regardless of gender) hold the child's well-being as the most important product of their family. That is not decided by gender. That is decided by the values and character of the PEOPLE who are raising the child. Gender is irrelevant.

I understand your view but my question is this:

Is a home with a mother and father better than a home with a father father/mother mother?

I believe that in the ideal situation, a mother father gives more to a child than two of the same sex, simply because of the different roles they play.

So what roles do we play in a marriage?
Is there such a thing as a typical father/mother?
Is there even such a thing as an ideal family?
You seem to have some kind of fairy tale picture of that.
Could you please be more specific and tell us what the ideal male/female family looks like?

Honestly I have never met anyone who didn't have some issues with their parents.
I don't believe a parent can do everything 'right'.
And that's oke as long you try to be the best parent you think you can be.
Even if you make mistakes, your child knows you love him/her.
It doesn't matter what the family looks like if it's a loving home.
But that's my opinion.
What's yours?

reply to post by markosity1973

Dear markosity1973,

I'm not going to say much in this thread either. It's a continuation of one of the closed threads emphasizing the emotional struggles of gays, and this thread will be on the emotional joys of gay marriage. I get it, fine.

We had started a halfway decent conversation in those other threads (at least, between the two of us), then the name calling shut the thread down. It may be that I'm hitting a depressive patch, but I believe that my experiences here are leading me to think that a discussion on this subject, open to all members, is just not possible.

I guess in a very harsh and judgmental way, I'm saying that I'm giving up for a while, at least here, on discussing gay issues. (Which is, no doubt, a relief to some.) I'm saddened that communication isn't possible at any significant level because that's what I want most. It doesn't do much good to assign blame, but I'll put over a half on the shoulders of those pushing for change while insulting anyone who doesn't instantly agree.

Maybe U2Us are the way to go here.

With respect,
Charles1952

Neither gay or straight couples immediately make good parents.
Couples that adopt will clearly be under greater scrutiny, but not all people adopt.

That's why I'd say extended family and many role models of either gender are very important.

Currently, especially for the realities of SA, I think US-styled Christian churches have too much of an exclusive focus on small, nuclear families (parents and kids) only.

Economic realities have meant that black people have survived very tough times and migrant labor systems through an extended clan family system.
Currently many poorer white families may also share homes with the elderly (once cared for by the state) and extended family.
Realities are no longer so simple as to say every couple has a house to themselves, and one can cut out the elderly or gay people.

In the past nuclear families have also hidden a lot of dysfunction, bad parenting and abuse.
Extended families also have problems, but the churches and religions could do more to accept and guide more extended family living, rather than to ignore economics and tell each couple that they should still be the kings of their castle, when it's not going to happen in many cases.
Even when it does, the father, for example, may be on the oil-rigs for half the year, and not always present.

In increasing examples gay vs. straight people taking care of kids (while the others are working, for example) is no longer a clear-cut segregated situation.
As such it's unconscionable that people still go to churches that basically tell them to have nothing to do with gay family, or even to throw them out on the street simply for being gay.
If people really feel that the kids of same-sex couples need other role-models, then they should be more accepting and involved.

Originally posted by Hopechest

Originally posted by ManFromEurope

Originally posted by Hopechest
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

The question is though, is a poor woman/man relationship able to provide more than a perfect man/man, woman/woman relationship simply by the different ideals they will teach?

I honestly do not know.

Aaaand what about those single-parents? Where is the man/woman in the house in those cases? Shouldn't those be handled with precautions, too?

Well, I was just thinking aloud here..

My mother died when I was very young so I was raised by my father and I remember when I was 13 and had my first bleeding I ran out to him because I was scared.

He thought I was cut and grabbed a bunch of bandages and stuff and when he finally realized what was going on he turned as white as a ghost. Literally.

We lived in the desert, far away from any city and he jumped in the truck and got Ms. Johanson, our nearest neighbor about 5 miles away and brought her over.

I will never forget it...."dear...its natural..here you go"....and she fixed me up and talked to me for a couple hours about what it means to change into a woman.

Can a man/man relationship deal with that?

Certainly they can. While I get in your particular case, your father wasn't really prepared for it. It doesn't mean that other men are or are not. I would imagine a man/man couple raising a daughter would be a bit more prepared. And that it is also necessary to understand that a large segment of the population would know that this is also taught in school these days. I don't know how far back your experience on this was, but most men these days are pretty hip to how the lady parts work. They may dread the idea of having to have the talk with their daughters but should have the knowledge to do so at this point.