Gay marriage and families

I am not going to do much talking in this thread. I will let these two videos present themselves.

Zach Wahls speaks some more about his being raised by a lesbian couple and talks of a book he wrote to help educate the world what it is like living in a non conventional family



An all American war veteran and lutheran pastor talks about his love of his 2 gay grandsons and his wish for them to be able to marry.



I know from the last two debates there is a lot of fear out there about gay marriage destroying family values, but that is the last thing gay people want. We want to share those values and be part of them too.

You are selectively picking upbeat stories.

What you should do is match these two with two negative stories then correlate them together if you really want to get to the truth.

Its obvious what side you are on.

Beautiful stories of love. It's so sad that some people look to criticize... all because of plumbing. It makes no sense. The families of gay people I know are all very happy, loving and the kids are well-adjusted.

I'd much rather be on "the side" of equality and love, than on "the side" of judgment, fear and hatred...

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Certainly there are many gay couples that perform their job of raising children to the highest level.

No question about that.

But as a society we should look at the overall impact.

Does a gay couple present the situations that a typical husband and wife do? Does a child lose out on anything without having a mom in the house per se?

Men are men regardless and visa versa.

We can cherry pick things like the OP is doing but we do need to discuss the larger picture.

reply to post by Hopechest


You are more than welcome to present such evidence. And I am more than happy to discuss it, *but let's keep it civil*

And yes, I am pro gay marriage.

Originally posted by markosity1973
reply to post by Hopechest

 

You are more than welcome to present such evidence. And I am more than happy to discuss it.

And yes, I am pro gay marriage.

I am neither for nor against gay marriage but I believe it is a very important topic.

I personally feel that a woman and man will raise a child better than a gay couple simply because of the two different perspectives they bring.

When a gay couple raises a child your only getting one of those. There is no question that the ideal gay couple will raise a child better than most male/female unions but my problem is that gay couples are humans at the end of the day and most of them are not ideal.....as most man/woman unions are not ideal.

Originally posted by Hopechest

When a gay couple raises a child your only getting one of those. There is no question that the ideal gay couple will raise a child better than most male/female unions but my problem is that gay couples are humans at the end of the day and most of them are not ideal.....as most man/woman unions are not ideal.

So using your own logic as above, its clear to see that its wrong to treat any person different due to their sexuality - Both are not perfect, none more than the other - both equal, so they deserve equal rights in the aspect of marriage too.

If we got into the nitty gritty of who is mentally able to raise a child in the perfect environment, 3/4 of the world population wouldnt be able to have a child.

reply to post by Hopechest


And that is what this thread is for. I realise after participating in other threads that gay families is a concern for a lot of people. These families are already out there, so let's open a dialogue about it.

reply to post by Hopechest

Originally posted by Hopechest
I personally feel that a woman and man will raise a child better than a gay couple simply because of the two different perspectives they bring.

1. Don't you agree that that depends on the woman and man? MANY children raised in straight households are beaten, abused, neglected... which proves that having two parents of opposite gender is not necessarily something that makes a family work.

2. Most gay parents are very aware that having both gender adults involved in the child's life is a good thing. They have friends and family who give the child different perspectives on life.

3. Gay couples have to work extra hard to have children, so these children are WANTED.

4. Even IF the best scenario is for a child to have two opposite gender parents (which I don't believe) MANY wonderful and well-adjusted children are raised in single parent homes.

Regardless what you personally feel, there is absolutely no logic to back it up.

When a gay couple raises a child your only getting one of those.

That's simply not true. Gay couples know how important it is to have a variety of influences in the child's life and work hard to see that that happens.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


The question is though, is a poor woman/man relationship able to provide more than a perfect man/man, woman/woman relationship simply by the different ideals they will teach?

I honestly do not know.

Originally posted by Hopechest
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

The question is though, is a poor woman/man relationship able to provide more than a perfect man/man, woman/woman relationship simply by the different ideals they will teach?

I honestly do not know.

Aaaand what about those single-parents? Where is the man/woman in the house in those cases? Shouldn't those be handled with precautions, too?

Well, I was just thinking aloud here..

Originally posted by ManFromEurope

Originally posted by Hopechest
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

The question is though, is a poor woman/man relationship able to provide more than a perfect man/man, woman/woman relationship simply by the different ideals they will teach?

I honestly do not know.

Aaaand what about those single-parents? Where is the man/woman in the house in those cases? Shouldn't those be handled with precautions, too?

Well, I was just thinking aloud here..

My mother died when I was very young so I was raised by my father and I remember when I was 13 and had my first bleeding I ran out to him because I was scared.

He thought I was cut and grabbed a bunch of bandages and stuff and when he finally realized what was going on he turned as white as a ghost. Literally.

We lived in the desert, far away from any city and he jumped in the truck and got Ms. Johanson, our nearest neighbor about 5 miles away and brought her over.

I will never forget it...."dear...its natural..here you go"....and she fixed me up and talked to me for a couple hours about what it means to change into a woman.

Can a man/man relationship deal with that?

reply to post by Hopechest

Originally posted by Hopechest
The question is though, is a poor woman/man relationship able to provide more than a perfect man/man, woman/woman relationship simply by the different ideals they will teach?

You simply cannot generalize by gender. Gender is not the deciding factor in ANY parental abilities. What's important is a loving home, where the child's needs come first. Where the people (regardless of gender) hold the child's well-being as the most important product of their family. That is not decided by gender. That is decided by the values and character of the PEOPLE who are raising the child. Gender is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Hopechest
...

Does a gay couple present the situations that a typical husband and wife do? Does a child lose out on anything without having a mom in the house per se?.
...

What exactly is a "typical husband and wife"? White picket fences? 2.5 kids? Dad that's the breadwinner and "homemaker" mom doing the cooking and cleaning?

The number of US children living in single-parent homes has nearly doubled in 50 years
Today, one-third of American children – a total of 15 million – are being raised without a father. Nearly five million more children live without a mother.
...
The majority of black children nationwide – 54 percent – are being raised by single mothers.
...
2013 Source

Compared to 2009:

...
According to Custodial Mothers and Fathers and Their Child Support: 2007, released by the U.S. Census Bureau in November, 2009, there are approximately 13.7 million single parents in the United States today, and those parents are responsible for raising 21.8 million children (approximately 26% of children under 21 in the U.S. today).
...
Source

So it's sociably acceptable for a kid to have 1 parent, but not for a kid to have 2 parents of the same sex?

Will a kid be OK being raised by just a mother?

...
A growing number of studies show that fatherlessness has a major negative impact on the social and emotional development of children.

A 2011 University of Melbourne study found that absent fathers were linked with higher rates of juvenile delinquency, while a Canadian study showed that kids whose fathers were active parents in early and middle childhood had fewer behavior problems and higher intellectual abilities as they grew older, even among socio-economically at-risk families...

As per the source above

So we can agree that two is better than one?

Let's look at it from a different perspective:

In the U.S. 400,540 children are living without permanent families in the foster care system. 115,000 of these children are eligible for adoption, but nearly 40% of these children will wait over three years in foster care before being adopted.
...
Around the world, there are an estimated 153 million orphans who have lost one parent. There are 17,800,000 million orphans who have lost both parents and are living in orphanages or on the streets and lack the care and attention required for healthy development. These children are at risk for disease, malnutrition, and death.
...
Children raised in orphanages have an IQ 20 points lower than their peers in foster care.
...
Each year, over 27,000 youth “age out” of foster care without the emotional and financial support necessary to succeed. This number has steadily risen over the past decade. Nearly 40% had been homeless or couch surfed, nearly 60% of young men had been convicted of a crime, and only 48% were employed. 75% of women and 33% of men receive government benefits to meet basic needs. 50% of all youth who aged out were involved in substance use and 17% of the females were pregnant.

Nearly 25% of youth aging out did not have a high school diploma or GED, and a mere 6% had finished a two- or four-year degree after aging out of foster care. One study shows 70% of all youth in foster care have the desire to attend college.

As of 2011, nearly 60,000 children in foster care in the U.S. are placed in institutions or group homes, not in traditional foster homes.
...
And so on

or

... that doesn't mean there are only 123,000 children in foster care, not by a long shot. The foster care population is nearly four times larger — about 463,000, according to current data from the HHS's Adoption and Foster Care Analysis and Reporting System (AFCARS).
And so on

So it's "best for society" to have these kids stay in the system, than to have two loving parents (of the same sex) give them a home?

...“Something has to be done about it, and it starts with the culture and reversing the attitude that marriage is not important,”...

It's funny that some folks go on-and-on about "the sanctity of marriage" and "family values" when it comes to the gay marriage debate, but not so much when it comes to "straight marriage" and families...

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by Hopechest

 

Originally posted by Hopechest
The question is though, is a poor woman/man relationship able to provide more than a perfect man/man, woman/woman relationship simply by the different ideals they will teach?

You simply cannot generalize by gender. Gender is not the deciding factor in ANY parental abilities. What's important is a loving home, where the child's needs come first. Where the people (regardless of gender) hold the child's well-being as the most important product of their family. That is not decided by gender. That is decided by the values and character of the PEOPLE who are raising the child. Gender is irrelevant.

I understand your view but my question is this:

Is a home with a mother and father better than a home with a father father/mother mother?

I believe that in the ideal situation, a mother father gives more to a child than two of the same sex, simply because of the different roles they play.

reply to post by Hopechest

Originally posted by Hopechest
Can a man/man relationship deal with that?

If a single man (your father) dealt with it, then two men can deal with it. Either they'd explain it the way your female neighbor did or they'd ask their female friend, sister, or even the child's biological mother to help, just as your father did.

When I started my period, my male teacher asked a female teacher to help out. And I had a mom and a dad!

Do you know any gay men? Some are VERY effeminate and practically have periods themselves! I have no doubt a gay man or two gay men could handle it very competently. They would talk it over ahead of time (they know it's coming) and agree on how to handle it for the child's best interest.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by Hopechest

 

Originally posted by Hopechest
Can a man/man relationship deal with that?

If a single man (your father) dealt with it, then two men can deal with it. Either they'd explain it the way your female neighbor did or they'd ask their female friend, sister, or even the child's biological mother to help, just as your father did.

When I started my period, my male teacher asked a female teacher to help out. And I had a mom and a dad!

Do you know any gay men? Some are VERY effeminate and practically have periods themselves!

I have no doubt a gay man or two gay men could handle it very competently. They would talk it over ahead of time (they know it's coming) and agree on how to handle it for the child's best interest.

Yes I'm sure they could handle it but it doesn't replace having your mom in the house.

See the difference?

reply to post by Hopechest


I would never ask a lady her age, for fear of being beaten up hehe, but I am sure that many years have passed since the situation that you speak of and men have, since then, become much more informed and enlightened. Most modern men would handle that situation much more calmly and with more knowledge than any man would have ten, twenty or thirty years ago!

reply to post by Hopechest

Originally posted by Hopechest
I understand your view but my question is this:

Is a home with a mother and father better than a home with a father father/mother mother?

You clearly don't understand my position. The answer to your question is: "It depends". Not on the gender of the people involved, but on their commitment to meeting the child's needs. There is no answer to your question. Some homes with both gender parents are TERRIBLE for children. Some are good. It all depends on the parents' dedication to the child, NOT on their gender. I don't know how to be more clear.

I believe that in the ideal situation, a mother father gives more to a child than two of the same sex, simply because of the different roles they play.

My father beat me and my mother let him do it. The idea that a mother and father would be inherently better or worse than a gay couple is impossible to determine, because gender doesn't play a role good parenting. And as I said before, good gay parents are aware that various influences are good for the child and they work at seeing that their child has those role models in their lives.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


My sympathies to you for having to witness that.

Perhaps your right.

Logic often conflicts with how we were raised and I should realize that.