Afghan Suicide bomber kills 10 children...'We gotta get outta this place.

reply to post by Danbones

Dan.... We're looking at a nation that was at war with itself a good 22 YEARS before American troops ever saw the place or heard it existed in a real world way. Yet, we're at fault for all that has gone wrong there? Oh thats as pathetic a line of crap as I've ever heard...and I don't say you're suggesting that, but plenty others are and they need to get a head check. They have more than brains between those ears and it needs flushed.

Iraq? That's a case where it's a VERY good one to state we broke it. We bought it. Iraq WAS working in 1990...before Saddam went ballistic on Kuwait and we had to kick his butt back home. Fine Fine... We should have left it there and called the idiot a done deal. Gadaffi learned...so would he. 2003? Now Iraq was again working fairly well, the madman in charge notwithstanding, before we came and utterly destroyed their power, water, food disturbution, police, fire, military and basic infrastructure repair and building.

Err... Basically, we destroyed their whole country. THAT one..I agree with taking a lot, if not most of the blame for. Had we stayed home in 2003...How would it have happened? It wouldn't have.

Afghanistan? Oh come on... That's like saying any other war torn hell hole on Earth is OUR fault before Americans have even gotten there. The Soviet Union technically broke Afghanistan...although even THAT isn't entirely accurate because it wasn't a peaceful little country they rolled an invasion force into to start with, was it?

The Afghans were fighting and killing each other for centuries before we arrived ..in continuous fighting? At least 35 years now. Non Stop. Death, civil war, external war and general war lord control over whatever the force of the gun could take and hold.

yet... it's our fault.

No... That's where I call a spade a spade and saying some punk in Kabul killing 10 kids is OUR fault is so badly and ignorantly misplaced to the facts of history as many of us personally watched it happen, in real time, AT the time. it's just sad to even see stated.

.....Just to clarify.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


"We gotta get outta this place"

I think we both know that it's not gonna happen. Human life and suffering doesn't even enter into the equation.

It's not even a war against terrorism, that's just the excuse; it's an occupation for resources.
www.globalresearch.ca...

So yeah, like I said before, Islam is a 'peaceful' religion
So peaceful some dirtbag offs himself and 10 children
Give me a break

Originally posted by unphased

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by unphased

 

Now that's an outright hateful thing to say, and to an extreme.

My concern is about the willingness to murder kids. If you are suggesting United States Forces have KNOWINGLY dropped explosives into areas with kids all over the place or have KNOWINGLY decided to slaughter almost a dozen kids so some 'ho hum' average Taliban militant could be hit...please, tell me with a cited and documented example. "I heard somewhere...' isn't documented.

I was being nice about not outright calling you on this before ..because I flat don't believe you when you say Americans have dropped high explosive weapons into densely populated areas in a similar fashion, knowing full well kids would die and doing it over...and over...and over again as an established military tactic.

Prove it or drop it. .....as I've asked now three times, counting the op, to avoid the American bashing garbage on a thread that I wrote specifically, soley and with narrow focus to the actions of the Afghan Militants.

You're welcome to start your own Anti-America bash thread. This isn't the one. However, please feel free to complete your thought with support to your claims. That I do very much want to see...since you've already stomped right across my thread anyway, totally ignoring what the OP post said. :shk:

*I VERY rarely go through the trouble of actually asking a direction be taken on a thread I write. Very rarely. When I occasionally do? I really am serious and not writing it directly into the op just for fun. The 'Joy of America Bashing" lately has me about sick to death of it entirely...and with a viciously short reaction to it. Must *EVERY* thread include SOME way to crap on the United States? Seems so ...for some people.

Smh how is me calling out the almost daily atrocity of the bombing of children "America bashing"????

You mean to tell me that you don't believe that children die as a result of our FREQUENT, SUPPORTED, and DEFENDED drone bombing of something like 5-9 countries...??? Even Obama acknowledged that like last week...

Still not sure how I'm "America bashing"...

so...the terrorist is off limits if he is surrounded by civilians?....what if that terrorist drove by you on the street from a van filled with children, and started blasting away at you on the street...I guess he is given a free pass

HEY!!!.... ALL YOU WOULD BE TERRORISTS!!!!...GET INTO YOUR SUV FILLED WITH CIVILIANS, AND COME ON DOWNTOWN, AND JOIN US AND OTHERS, AS WE RPG AND MACHINE GUN ANYONE WE WANT!!!..AND DON'T WORRY!!!...AS LONG AS YOU HAVE CIVILIANS RIGHT BESIDE YOU, YOU ARE SAFE!!!!

reply to post by olaru12


Yeah, it sure has become that. I'm not sure resources are what it started over. I think Bush having a war to go play war time President in was as much as anything...given the fact that a CIA team had the bunch of them cornered and caught when told to stand down and disengage in Dec of 2001. Then the Marines came and turned what could have been over ..into a decade or more of war.

When they found a trillion + in confirmed mineral and precious resources in 2010? Umm.. I think you're right from that point on, if nothing else. I think we all knew, deep down, we weren't leaving when it was proven beyond doubt that wasn't a dead desert of a nation. It was a gold mine that now the US, Russia and China all want a piece of.

As usual...the only ones to lose in the end will be the ones fighting and the ones dying. The ones to win will be those who never risked more than bad P.R. or a lost election ...if that much.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by olaru12

 

Yeah, it sure has become that. I'm not sure resources are what it started over. I think Bush having a war to go play war time President in was as much as anything...given the fact that a CIA team had the bunch of them cornered and caught when told to stand down and disengage in Dec of 2001. Then the Marines came and turned what could have been over ..into a decade or more of war.

What do you do all day long with those big floppy ears?

...after extensive meetings with warlords throughout Afghanistan, (Argentine oil company) Bridas had a 30-year agreement with the Rabbani regime to build and operate an 875-mile gas pipeline across Afghanistan.

By March 1995, Bulgheroni (Birdas) had accords with Turkmenistan and Pakistan granting Bridas construction rights for a pipeline into Afghanistan, pending negotiations with the civil war-torn country.

....

But Unocal was not interested in a partnership. The United States government, its affiliated transnational oil and construction companies, and the ruling elite of the West had coveted the same oil and gas transit route for years.

A trans-Afghanistan pipeline was not simply a business matter, but a key component of a broader geo-strategic agenda: total military and economic control of Eurasia (the Middle East and former Soviet Central Asian republics). Zbigniew Brezezinski describes this region in his book "The Grand Chessboard-American Primacy and Its Geostrategic Imperatives" as "the center of world power." Capturing the region's oil wealth, and carving out territory in order to build a network of transit routes, was a primary objective of US military interventions throughout the 1990s in the Balkans, the Caucasus and Caspian Sea.

As of 1992, 11 western oil companies controlled more than 50 percent of all oil investments in the Caspian Basin, including Unocal, Amoco, Atlantic Richfield, Chevron, Exxon-Mobil, Pennzoil, Texaco, Phillips and British Petroleum.

www.fourwinds10.net...

2010? ROTFL. Look up the word coveted.

pnac.info...

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I remember seeing a U.S. soldier in a wheel chair who had no arms and no legs. His limbs were blown off by a suicide bomber in Afghanistan. All I kept thinking to myself when I saw this poor young man was, for what?

reply to post by frazzle


Oh I recall the talk about the Pipeline back before the 2001 invasion. Some of that was being theorized in the 90's as I recall hearing. Particularly before 9/11 itself in general.

The thing is...The US has owned that country as much as anyone ever will outside of the Afghanis themselves. I still don't see that Pipeline...and if it's not there by now? I don't believe it ever will be at this point. Other pipes have been planned out since then anyway. The security situation has made whatever benefit that would have carried akin to 2 steps forward just to get knocked 3 steps back. Kinda like Iraq and keeping basic services running while they were attacked on a regular basis.

That's why I didn't mention that as a motivation for the war. It never went anywhere...so the pipeline seems to have been a pipe dream.

As pipelines go, I think the one to watch now is the multi-billion dollar line planned from the Caspian reserves coming into Iran, across northern Iraq and out through Syria to a terminus in Lebanon. The final agreements based on survey work were completed between the 3 primary nations last year......and just as the Syrian situation went from warm to raging hot. Go figure. That one is Natural Gas and more strategic than Oil ever has been for where it runs, where it goes and who it impacts for markets.

@ WeRPeons

I hear you loud and clear. My brother in law was with the first Marines into Kandahar in 2002 then did another tour in Iraq after that. He'll never been entirely right, in terms of what he saw and experienced..and we won't even get into his health issues. They aren't like your example has to endure. Nothing like that. That's as extreme as it gets. His will definitely cut his life short from what old age would have had for him though. Another cousin is still career Mo Nat'l Guard and back/forth as Aircrew on one of the small prop cargo planes they use for the FOB's. At least that was his duty in Iraq. I'm not sure what he's up to now as we've lost touch. I imagine he's nothing like I recall either.

For what? Not a damn thing I can see. It started with lofty ideals and goals..but in the end? Iraq is a broken nation we left behind and Afghan will be no better. For what? Nada. Nothing at all has been gained, IMO.

Originally posted by jimmyx

Originally posted by unphased

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by unphased

 

Now that's an outright hateful thing to say, and to an extreme.

My concern is about the willingness to murder kids. If you are suggesting United States Forces have KNOWINGLY dropped explosives into areas with kids all over the place or have KNOWINGLY decided to slaughter almost a dozen kids so some 'ho hum' average Taliban militant could be hit...please, tell me with a cited and documented example. "I heard somewhere...' isn't documented.

I was being nice about not outright calling you on this before ..because I flat don't believe you when you say Americans have dropped high explosive weapons into densely populated areas in a similar fashion, knowing full well kids would die and doing it over...and over...and over again as an established military tactic.

Prove it or drop it. .....as I've asked now three times, counting the op, to avoid the American bashing garbage on a thread that I wrote specifically, soley and with narrow focus to the actions of the Afghan Militants.

You're welcome to start your own Anti-America bash thread. This isn't the one. However, please feel free to complete your thought with support to your claims. That I do very much want to see...since you've already stomped right across my thread anyway, totally ignoring what the OP post said. :shk:

*I VERY rarely go through the trouble of actually asking a direction be taken on a thread I write. Very rarely. When I occasionally do? I really am serious and not writing it directly into the op just for fun. The 'Joy of America Bashing" lately has me about sick to death of it entirely...and with a viciously short reaction to it. Must *EVERY* thread include SOME way to crap on the United States? Seems so ...for some people.

Smh how is me calling out the almost daily atrocity of the bombing of children "America bashing"????

You mean to tell me that you don't believe that children die as a result of our FREQUENT, SUPPORTED, and DEFENDED drone bombing of something like 5-9 countries...??? Even Obama acknowledged that like last week...

Still not sure how I'm "America bashing"...

so...the terrorist is off limits if he is surrounded by civilians?....what if that terrorist drove by you on the street from a van filled with children, and started blasting away at you on the street...I guess he is given a free pass

HEY!!!.... ALL YOU WOULD BE TERRORISTS!!!!...GET INTO YOUR SUV FILLED WITH CIVILIANS, AND COME ON DOWNTOWN, AND JOIN US AND OTHERS, AS WE RPG AND MACHINE GUN ANYONE WE WANT!!!..AND DON'T WORRY!!!...AS LONG AS YOU HAVE CIVILIANS RIGHT BESIDE YOU, YOU ARE SAFE!!!!

edit on 3-6-2013 by jimmyx because: (no reason given)

You mean the suspected insurgent..?

Or better yet how about the american citizens who have been killed by drones...? Anwar Awlaki and his 16 year old son...

OR MAYBE since the "terrorist" is IN AFGHANISTAN we should just stay in the US and wouldn't have to WORRY ABOUT THEM!!!!

Originally posted by WeRpeons
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

I remember seeing a U.S. soldier in a wheel chair who had no arms and no legs. His limbs were blown off by a suicide bomber in Afghanistan. All I kept thinking to myself when I saw this poor young man was, for what?

Opium of course..

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

That's why I didn't mention that as a motivation for the war. It never went anywhere...so the pipeline seems to have been a pipe dream.

So why does the war drag on? Why not bring the troops home and declare victory?

As Richard Boucher, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for South and Central Asian Affairs, stated in September 2007: “One of our goals is to stabilize Afghanistan so it can become a conduit and hub between South and Central Asia so that energy can flow to the south… and so that the countries of Central Asia are no longer bottled up between the two enormous powers of China and Russia, but rather that they have outlets to the south as well as to the north and the east and the west.”

However, as the Indian diplomat M.K. Bhadrakumar put it in an article for Asia Times, “The United States' pipeline diplomacy in the Caspian, which strove to bypass Russia, elbow out China and isolate Iran, has foundered.”

On January 6, Turkmenistan committed its entire gas exports to China, Russia, and Iran with the inauguration of the Dauletabad-Sarakhs-Khangiran (DSK) pipeline which connects Iran's northern Caspian area with Turkmenistan.

www.rawa.org...

Doesn't sound to me like moving all that gas via pipe lines is a pipe dream, at least not for China, Russia and Iran. They're making deals all over the world and not one shot has been fired to accomplish it. No argument though that it could turn out to be a genuine nightmare for somebody.

The US has squandered any good will it ever earned in the past and there will probably be a high cost for the extreme amount of death and destruction our gunboat diplomacy has brought to so many peoples, besides ending up with a tanked and dead federal reserve. I just can't mourn that part.

I don't blame anyone for WANTING to believe their country is doing good things for all the right reasons, but dang it, it is what it is. And yes, they have utterly wrecked the lives of tens of thousands of people who suited up to do battle because they wanted to believe they were the good guys.

Some 58 thousand of my generation died in Viet Nam for a lie and many thousands more died lingering, miserable, painful deaths after they came home and were thrown under the bus. THEY didn't have a choice in the matter, these guys did. I'm sorry, but these "engagements" have all been based on another series of ugly lies and too many believed.

Will we ever learn?

Originally posted by HomerinNC
So yeah, like I said before, Islam is a 'peaceful' religion
So peaceful some dirtbag offs himself and 10 children
Give me a break

edit on 6/3/2013 by HomerinNC because: (no reason given)

How many children in Afghanistan or elsewhere have been killed by Americans?

Where's the outrage when the US Military commits murder? Because we do it from a command center thousands of miles away it's ok - but when a guy straps a bomb to his chest and does it it's despicable?

Where's the consistency?

"Afghan Suicide bomber kills 10 children...'We gotta get outta this place., "

'We gotta get outta this place., "

Agreed~!~

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I agree this is a terrible event. This does not make it evil incarnate. You said there was a difference between a drone strike that kills(possibly children) and a suicide bomber that kills(possibly children & in this case children). In fact, there is no difference at all. The objective of the bomber, long range or suicide, is still carried out. Hell, personally I would find it harder to strike people as a drone pilot. I find all types of modern long range combat despicable. The person does not even have a clue that their number might be up. It is the same ballpark and is hot dogs to hot dogs. It is war -- the long range bomber has an objective. The suicide bomber has an objective. In both cases the objective is carried out and there is collateral damage. As some like to call it.

I cannot sympathize with any army that knowingly enters a region that they know will engage in asymmetric war. That army is literally inviting such actions to occur. My sympathy is for the casualties caught up in the fight between one force and the other. However, I have no power to stop their conflict. The blood of those casualties is on both of their hands. The bomber would not have a target if what he considers invaders were not there. The patrol would not have been targeted if it was never sent there in the first place. OK, so that was my opinion on the matter. Now I'll discuss the attack.

What this attack is, is a classic example of asymmetric war. The people that planned and organized the attack, along with the actual bomber carrying it out, are fighting what they consider invaders. They are fighting with the tools available to them. They are not going to attack in a head on fight -- they are sure to lose that way. This is the very nature of asymmetric war. Causing damage to the technologically superior enemy that reduces the risk to your own force. That is war and it isn't evil.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Hey OP, why haven't you replied to Romebyfire?

Probably the best post in this thread and you haven't replied to it.

Yeah, I don't get it either. It's like we have some moral obligation to murder Afghanistan kids if the Afghanistan kids get murdered by terrorists. Like some sort of game of who can kill the most civilians. Really weird, the whole situation is completely screwed up.

You see this a lot on this forum, people defending the murder of innocent civilians in the middle east by American forces. I guess they view must Muslims as cockroaches or something that need to be eradicated. I will never understand this way of thinking.

Though, it get's even more screwed up when you realize why were in Afghanistan in the first place. You see soldiers guarding opium fields instead of burning them down. 80% of all heroine trade comes from Afghanistan. I wonder who's selling it?

Pretty convenient too that heroine is illegal in the states. Big business the drug trade is.

reply to post by Skjord


I haven't replied to a few on this thread because I'm not getting into the gutter on this topic. I don't condone, by ANY MEANS, the mistreatment or killing of civilians by US forces. I never have. I never will and I've been vocal about speaking out against it when it's shown to have happened (not rumored) in the past.

People seem to assume that because I think the terrorist scumbags in Afghanistan are pretty much a step below child molesters, that I somehow SUPPORT atrocious behavior by OUR side. That's absurd and flat wrong. I've never said or suggested anything of the sort. In fact, I've taken quite the opposite position when proof has been present for misconduct by US forces. We have a nice place in Kansas for them to live out their days with others of their kind, too.

That being said....I also don't see the need to give big hugs or support to ruthless killers among the Taliban or Al Qaeda terrorists just because we do have criminals in uniform on our side. The *HUGE* difference is....their side calls it fair and reasonable tactics to fight with and they have for over 20 years. LONG before we got there. Clear back into the days of the Soviet Occupation.

Some absolutely CANNOT see the difference between U.S. Forces and others...or even acknowledge that there MAY be any difference at all. Well, for those who may have missed this little detail..... I come from a family with strong military tradition. United States Military tradition. My Brother in Law is a former Marine with time in both wars over there and one of my 1st cousins still serves over there, somewhere, when he's called back to deploy.

So, I really have no tolerance..of any kind..for that moral relativism between an army that prosecutes murders and one that celebrates them as heros. There is no comparison to the two sides, even if the monsters that exist on both (and to some degree in ALL armies, in ALL wars) do horrible things. Fine...... PROSECUTE THEM. Don't even start painting the WHOLE MILITARY with the brush of the madmen the war produces at times. Especially not when the Vets I personally know would shoot them, PERSONALLY, if they witnessed some of this happening. US Soldier or not.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Skjord

 

I haven't replied to a few on this thread because I'm not getting into the gutter on this topic. I don't condone, by ANY MEANS, the mistreatment or killing of civilians by US forces. I never have. I never will and I've been vocal about speaking out against it when it's shown to have happened (not rumored) in the past.

People seem to assume that because I think the terrorist scumbags in Afghanistan are pretty much a step below child molesters, that I somehow SUPPORT atrocious behavior by OUR side. That's absurd and flat wrong. I've never said or suggested anything of the sort. In fact, I've taken quite the opposite position when proof has been present for misconduct by US forces. We have a nice place in Kansas for them to live out their days with others of their kind, too.

That being said....I also don't see the need to give big hugs or support to ruthless killers among the Taliban or Al Qaeda terrorists just because we do have criminals in uniform on our side. The *HUGE* difference is....their side calls it fair and reasonable tactics to fight with and they have for over 20 years. LONG before we got there. Clear back into the days of the Soviet Occupation.

Some absolutely CANNOT see the difference between U.S. Forces and others...or even acknowledge that there MAY be any difference at all. Well, for those who may have missed this little detail..... I come from a family with strong military tradition. United States Military tradition. My Brother in Law is a former Marine with time in both wars over there and one of my 1st cousins still serves over there, somewhere, when he's called back to deploy.

So, I really have no tolerance..of any kind..for that moral relativism between an army that prosecutes murders and one that celebrates them as heros. There is no comparison to the two sides, even if the monsters that exist on both (and to some degree in ALL armies, in ALL wars) do horrible things. Fine...... PROSECUTE THEM. Don't even start painting the WHOLE MILITARY with the brush of the madmen the war produces at times. Especially not when the Vets I personally know would shoot them, PERSONALLY, if they witnessed some of this happening. US Soldier or not.

Ok...sooo maybe you're having a hard time understanding this.. Drone bombs, and the "collateral damage" attatched to them, constitute war crimes, in the methods the US uses them. The US doesn't prosecute murderers, they prosecute the big ones that they can't cover up.

Guess what: in a logical world, if I'm going up against an enemy, and I throw a grenade, and kill the guy, AND his family, I SHOULD be brought up on murder charges...

There is NO moral high ground here. In the end, CHILDREN DIE, WOMEN DIE, INNOCENTS DIE, so no, there is no difference between the US military and taliban fighters..

Let's go back in time to where a group of REAL MEN met off in the distance and fought the war.. Now the war is taken to civilians and you have the damn nerve to claim that ANYONE has a moral high ground?!?!?

I remember reading from people saying if we got out of Iraq things would be better there well were out, So are things better in Iraq yet?

reply to post by unphased

Let's go back in time to where a group of REAL MEN met off in the distance and fought the war.. Now the war is taken to civilians and you have the damn nerve to claim that ANYONE has a moral high ground?!?!?

I'll give you another reply, against my better judgement at this point and I'll probably regret it..but that really does need a reply given thread context. With your fighting approach though? This will probably be the last one I make on one of your notes. I'm not getting into a running fight on this. I'd have had this thread deleted when you first derailed it....3 times..after being asked not to. That isn't up to me though. Unfortunately.


Now, what irked me a little is where you assume I ever, once, suggested we have the moral high ground. In fact, I ceded the point....(This is the 4th time I've said it on this thread...) right there, in my OP, that US forces aren't perfect and do some nasty stuff. In fact, we have US Soldiers sitting on life sentences in prison for some of it. We DO prosecute our monsters when they are found. At least, it's tried as much as humanly possible. I know not EVERY LAST ONE gets cuffed and stuffed...however much we'd like it.


You see, the thing here is.... I wrote a thread about Afghanistan Militant fighting tactics and the outcome to have killed the kids. If someone started a thread about American atrocities...and I came and just hammered the thread endlessly about how '..no no no...It's someone else who is much worse and so the topic is irrelevant,' as you have been on my thread, I'd be very much in the wrong.


Find me an example where I have *E V E R* been an apologist for American misconduct overseas. Once. On ATS or ANY OTHER site for that matter. I use the same name wherever I go, so it's not a rocket science type of question here. You won't find one though because I don't apologize for criminals, murderers or rapists who HAPPEN to wear the Uniform. Hiding behind a rank makes them WORSE..not better.

Our enemy on the other hand, considers murder of innocents to be an acceptable form of fighting....NOT something to be avoided or even prosecuted when found and proven. It's how they roll.....and why I do feel how I do. It's why I wrote the thread here in the first place.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

This isn't war. This is evil.

It's not war, it's just islam. Kill your enemies, and when you encounter a rival sect that promotes slightly different doctrines or beliefs, kill them too. That's why you see Sunni's killing Shiites and Alawites, and Wahabi's killing everything in between. Think of these islamic sects as different tribes of Arabs warring with eachother, because that's what they really are, and theyre doing it in the constraints of their Imam's personal interpretations of the Quran.