What Jerusalem?

reply to post by Deetermined

Does that help to answer your question at all?

Yes. Because:

Personally, I believe that Jesus didn't get involved or teach about it because it was no issue to him. He may have just left it up to them to decide for themselves what they felt kept them close to God and defined them as a people.

And Paul followed that example and taught it to the Corinth Church. The things that are irrelevant should not become the cause of division. That's why Paul studies should continue in Christianity, as long as there is a Christianity.

My agenda is this: That Christians ignore the propaganda of Jews who claim to value Moses, and yet don't follow Moses, that's about 99%. Their religion is from the Talmud. Many of the top Rabbis have never studied Torah at all, but rather dedicated their lives to Talmud and Kabbalah. It is these people who make grand claims against Paul and Christianity. Christians should ignore what they say. They don't know Paul and they don't know Jesus.

That's my agenda in a nut-shell.

reply to post by Deetermined

The Jews have more trials to go through before they recognize Jesus as the Son of God. As Christians, all we know is that the Bible says it will all happen again. History will keep repeating itself until they come to the realization about Jesus.

No, it doesn't have to happen again and again. AD70 was already the 2nd take-down, and that was after second Moses had come, as Christians say.

Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brothers, like you; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. 19 It shall happen, that whoever will not listen to my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Luke 16: 27 “He said, ‘I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house; 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, so they won’t also come into this place of torment.’

29 “But Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’

30 “He said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.’”"

It serves no purpose to assist the Zionists in any attempt they make to do that which only the Messiah is authorized to do. That is not helping the Jews, that is fighting against Jesus.

reply to post by pthena


That makes sense to me.

If you want a glimpse of what's to come, you can find them in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

I recommend studying the connections between the books of Daniel, Zechariah and Revelation.

The bottom line is that we're going to see more prophecy being fulfilled out of Israel, and Jerusalem in particular. Christians are supposed to watch for these signs and heed them in order to prepare ourselves for Jesus' second coming.

reply to post by pthena

It serves no purpose to assist the Zionists in any attempt they make to do that which only the Messiah is authorized to do. That is not helping the Jews, that is fighting against Jesus.

I understand your frustration. I think we both know that God's overall plan is going to roll out regardless of what we do or don't do to assist the current state of Israel.

Christians refer to these verses as their reasons for assisting the current state of Israel today...

Genesis 12:1-3

1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

reply to post by Deetermined

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Yet where does it say State of Israel in that verse? It's not there.

If it makes you or anyone else feel better, add blessings to Abraham in your daily prayers. Or consider the extreme way Jesus puts it:

Matthew 5:…44But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which spitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That you may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Sun and rain do not depend upon who you bless or curse. Compare to another favorite verse of Christian Zionism:

Zechariah 14: 17 It will be, that whoever of all the families of the earth doesn’t go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, Yahweh of Armies, on them there will be no rain.

I get the very strong impression that post-exile Zechariah version of Yahweh is not the Father in Heaven that Jesus speaks about.

reply to post by pthena


Do some study on the Millenial period, this what you're reading in Zechariah.

reply to post by pthena

Is it possible that the saying of rebuilding what was destroyed, could have been a Pharisee saying?

To me, it says something like,

If from what I dismantled, I built a new structure, using those parts, then I would be constructing a damnable thing.
Galatians 2:18

Only took me 4 hrs. to translate, and used some commentary by Robert Jewett to decipher the meanings of some of the words in the sentence.

reply to post by pthena

And later, by the time he wrote Romans, has he fully accepted post-exile to the extent that he found no problem with Jerusalem being World center for Christianity?

I need to read the last section of Robert Jewett to see what he has to say about that.
It's not something I have ever done any serious study on.

reply to post by jmdewey60

4 hours, thanks

damnable thing

παραβάτην ? Where is that used as damnable thing? I don't see how (from parabainó Definition one who stands beside) is that like a satan or something?

reply to post by pthena

παραβάτην ? Where is that used as damnable thing? I don't see how (from parabainó Definition one who stands beside) is that like a satan or something?

I may have added that part, "thing", at the end but how I interpret it, seeing he is talking about tearing down something and building something.
One part that I got directly from Jewett was the meaning of what usually gets translated as "transgressor". I was reading his commentary on Romans 2:27, which is the other place where Paul uses that word. He says that it means something that would damn you.

4 hours, thanks

That is something I have to do anyway, to learn how these words are used. What burns up time is going through long lists of verses that have that word in it and seeing how sentences are constructed around them.

synistanō, usually translated as "I would be" means to "constitute" and so I am going with the tearing down and building theme by taking it in a physical way to fit the analogy that I think Paul is making, and translated it as "constructing".