Standing Down To The Threat of Violence and Death

Anyone who reads the New Testament, more specifically the Gospels, can see that Jesus spoke of turning the other cheek and putting down your weapons. Now my question to you is do you think that Jesus meant to resist fighting for you life?

It seems like today that it is common practice to protect your life at all costs but if he will resurrect you and also said to pretty much love at all costs, is it christian to protect your own life?

Is pulling a gun for self defense turning the other cheek? or is it going against what Jesus spoke of?

Note that I'm not speaking against defending yourself, I just want you opinion on the fact that Jesus repeatedly spoke of laying down your weapons and turning the other cheek.

reply to post by Ralphy


I think this says it all...

John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

reply to post by Ralphy

I have read somewhere that "turning the other cheek" was a common figure of speech, as is "kissing someone's (you know) in order to get a promotion. I thought it referred to an insult, and referred to the way to deal with insults.

He praised the faith of the Centurion asking for healing, and never indicated (that we know of) that he was to give up the profession of arms.

This may be a far-fetched intrepetation, I'm open to correction.

Originally posted by Ralphy
Anyone who reads the New Testament, more specifically the Gospels, can see that Jesus spoke of turning the check and putting down your weapons. Now my question to you is do you think that Jesus meant to resist fighting for you life?

It seems like today that it is common practice to protect your life at all costs but if he will resurrect you and also said to pretty much love at all costs, is it christian to protect your own life?

Is pulling a gun for self defense turning the other cheek? or is it going against what Jesus spoke of?

Note that I'm not speaking against defending yourself, I just want you opinion on the fact that Jesus repeatedly spoke of laying down your weapons and turning the other cheek.

I read something recently that somewhat discredits the idea that Jesus was commanding his followers not to protect themselves from an existential threat. It goes into the specific language Jesus used. I'll try to relay it without digging for the source.

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Matthew 5:39

Jesus specifically says if someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to present your left cheek.

Consider the fact that most people are right handed, so if they threw a punch they would most likely lead with the right. The punch would strike you on the left cheek. To strike one's right cheek with the right hand, you'd have to use a backhanded slap, which implies an attempt to insult rather than injure.

Therefore, rather than commanding us to be passive, Jesus commands us to be bold. If someone insults you, you're to turn to present him the left cheek, the cheek which they would strike if they would back up their words with true wrath. As if to say "Come at me, Bro."

reply to post by Ralphy


Jesus didn't defend his own life, and wouldn't allow anyone else to defend it either. He even healed the high priest's slaves ear, when Peter cut if off.

Jesus even told his followers to give up their lives, saying

He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Ralphy

 

Jesus even told his followers to give up their lives, saying

He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

That doesn't sound like a command, but a statement. It reminds me of the eastern concept of Samsara, the cycle of death and rebirth. He who truly loves his life shall be satisfied, enlightened and allowed to escape Samsara and return to absolute oneness, while he who hates his life shall not be satisfied and thus return to repeat it in another form.

Seems to contradict the traditional "Christian" idea of heaven and hell (which was actually borrowed from Pagan religions)

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

May I suggest an alternative explanation to the verse you quoted?

Jesus even told his followers to give up their lives, saying

He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

I'm not entirely sure He's saying to give up your life, as much as He's saying don't make your life your highest priority, your love, the thing that you'd give up anything for."

It's possible that this was behind the actions of the martyrs, who would rather die than renounce their True Love, Jesus.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

I'm not entirely sure He's saying to give up your life, as much as He's saying don't make your life your highest priority, your love, the thing that you'd give up anything for."

It's possible that this was behind the actions of the martyrs, who would rather die than renounce their True Love, Jesus.

Hi Charles,

I think that there are people who willing allowed themselves to be martyred because they thought that's what Jesus would want.

Soldiers martyr themselves for a cause all the time.

I certainly think that the doctrine of Christianity leans itself toward self victimization when it isn't always imperative. I would hope that Christian leaders teach their children to value their lives, as so much more can be accomplished by people with a vision and the self determinism to carry out that vision, than an army of victims willing and to die for a belief. I'm not sure that I would call that kind of fanaticism "True Love for Jesus."

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

If I get upset at anything on ATS, mostly it's the inability to have face-to-face discussions. Sometime, when I'm rich and famous, we'll get together for a long talk.

Allow me to demonstrate my point with the choice the martyrs faced. They knew that Christians were getting tossed to the lions or dipped in tar and set alight. It wasn't a symbolic choice.

The choice was basically, spit on Jesus and worship Roman gods, or die. They looked at their priorities, considered the consequences and said "Hell, no. We won't go." That dedication has been admired in many situations.

Remember, also, that their unshakeable belief was that it was a choice between doing good on earth for a couple of decades, or an eternity in heaven. With that belief, I'd hope to be brave enough to make the same choice. Many weren't.

Even in the military, and not just the US', mission is placed above personal survival. (Oh, and who was it that said, "I only regret that I have but one life to give for my country?)

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by Ralphy


Luke 17:33

Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it.

This is true because of pride and humility; reward and suffering. There is a law at work in all of this. I like to use the example of smoking. What happens when you take a reward like smoking? You lose your life. Why? Taking reward (Thief) brings debt and suffering. Flip this now. If you go to the gym and workout, what happens? You gain reward and longer life. Suffering always brings reward. Work a job and you feed your family. Suffer a car payment and you get to work faster, have more free time and can travel greater distances. Suffering is required. Those who seek to save (not use) their life will lose it. Those who lose (use) their life will preserve true life.

We are images in a created universe. The real you is not here at all. Look in a mirror. You see your image. Likewise, God tells us we are INSIDE an image (Genesis 1:27). What you bind here is bound in heaven. What you loose here is loosed in heaven. I get this information from Matthew 18 where it speaks of entanglements here applying above. When you find a lesser case of something (Like smoking or going to the gym), it can be applied in the greater case. Apply what I have said to your question and you simply follow the law. Love is giving and hate is taking. The thief takes.

How many thieves on the cross? Two. How many repented? The one that repented did not do anything to earn salvation except giving the thing he valued most (his pride). The thief that did not repent held his pride selfishly. When Abraham was asked to give up his son Issac to God in a sacrifice, what did God do? He gave Abraham a substitute. Christ is our substitute for sin. We keep our own identity because we hold our own within his. Suffering was the mark of his name and character.

What is the mark of the beast?

2 Timothy 3

3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

---Notice that the mark has 18 items identifying it (6+6+6). Selfishness is the mark of any animal. Selflessness is the mark of one that takes the name of Christ. Love covers a multitude of sin and you must lose your self here to gain it there in the world to come. Death is only a judgment for new life. You must be born (Baptized) again if you fail to find union with love and God. What is the person below doing? Taking or giving? Taking reward brings suffering. Giving a gift requires that it is earned first. The greatest gift we can hold is the one our friend gave us by dying for our sinful nature.

6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9 But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

reply to post by charles1952


Charles,

I'm not saying that there weren't people who were martyred for good causes, or that some wars don't have causes worth dying for. Although, I'm not sure that ALL those peopled killed, during those days, were really killed for their beliefs, and not for political "scapegoat" reasons. For example, I read somewhere that many of those killed by Nero were slaves imported from Brittainia. They were killed because they were being blamed for bad luck. It wouldn't have mattered what they believed, or if they recanted their faith, their fate was sealed. It was the same with Jews during the Jewish Roman wars, their fate was sealed, and someone running out of the city claiming Caesar to be God, probably wouldn't have changed a thing, or survived.

Then, of course, there's always altruism, where you have a brother lay down his life for his brother, or a mother for her child, etc. But that doesn't seem to be what Jesus was talking about, in my opinion. I think that his message was that this life is worth sacrificing for a better next life. But I would qualify that to say that we should milk every ounce of experience out of this life first, try our hardest to get along and survive, before we throw ourselves to the hungry lions, and give up.

Sometime, when I'm rich and famous, we'll get together for a long talk.

You're already famous Charles, and as far as I can tell, you're also a very rich man, cash be damned!

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

I knew it. With your patience and intelligence you have brought me around to agreeing with you completely.

But that doesn't seem to be what Jesus was talking about, in my opinion. I think that his message was that this life is worth sacrificing for a better next life. But I would qualify that to say that we should milk every ounce of experience out of this life first, try our hardest to get along and survive, before we throw ourselves to the hungry lions, and give up.

If I did that sort of thing, I'd print it out and stick it on my wall.

Wonderful seeing you again. Why can't you post in every thread I visit?

With respect,
Charles1952

P.s. "Famous and rich?" In the world, I'm not known by many. Here? I think infamous is the better term. Ask the Mods. I've had three of my threads deleted, not closed, entirely obliterated. And I'd be happy to show you threads where the name calling starts at racist, and builds from there. Check my signature.

I only stick around because of people like you. - C -

reply to post by windword


well when the christians
went on the war path
during the crusades,
everyones memory
just won't let them forget.

reply to post by Ralphy


Turning the other cheek is speaking about persecution, not defending your life or the life of someone else. In the old testament scriptures, if someone was doing something wrong and you knew of it and you did nothing, then you were just as guilty. In the case of the prophet Eli, his sons were raping the temple virgins and having sex inside the temple and God warned Eli, and Eli did warn his sons to stop, but he wasn't proactive. He could have removed his 2 sons from temple service but instead he did nothing and they continued on in their filthiness, so God told him his line would come to an end. A battle occurred against the philistines, and Israel lost the battle and the Ark was captured and Eli's sons were slain. Upon hearing of his son's deaths Eli fell and broke his neck and his line was cut off forever.

Persecution 2000 years ago usually constituted of someone trying murder you for believing in Jesus or force you to stop preaching and believing in Jesus, upon which if you were killed for his namesake then it was 100% gurantee you'd get to be with him in the next life. Persecution is not someone trying to murder you for sh*ts and giggles, or trying to rob you or your family.

reply to post by Ralphy


I get the sense everybody fears getting killed. Lighten up, the sky is spotless.