Islamic Cleric Decrees Rape is OK during Syrian War

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee

 

1598 huh?

Point proven. How about the killing of Christians and Jews going on today at the hand of Muslims? There is no Christian doctrine that advocates killing. The same cannot be said about Islam. There have been over 200 terrorists attacks by Muslims just against the US since the 70's.

Actually 1715 was the last of the French Religious Wars. I don't want to believe you have trouble with basic reading, so I will simply assume you didn't read it.

Come on, man. Christianity is a religion of war. One need look only at the book of Revelation to see that a state of war needs to be attained before Jesus will return. There is no striving for peace. For Jesus to return, there needs to be war.

if its ok for the o.t. jews, why not the muslims?

reply to post by seabag

I've been trying to convince them.

Yup! Me, too!

They keep denying responsibility and calling me names.

Yup! Me, too!

There is little chance for an end to this ideological conflict. There are too many fanatics, too many deniers, too many sympathizers and too many who won't tolerate all of their BS!

Yup. It's a mess. It's a HUGE mess.

The apologists will tell you that Islam loves women and protects them. The stories that we hear, along with a girl missing her nose, because her husband cut it off as punishment for running away.... well those are just aberrations.

Remember when the Taliban governed Afghanistan ? Girls were not allowed to attend school.

Yes, they love women.

reply to post by logical7

you tell me what should they do?

I've already told you. No one east of the Atlantic gives a rat's butt what I think!!! (Although I'm trying, in my lame, ignorant way to make a difference and build GLOBAL PEACE )

Now, what is YOUR plan???!!!

Hmmmmm.....'what should they do?' How about EDUCATION!

WHAT SHOULD YOUR "PEACEFUL" LEADERS DO??!!!! End misogyny and 'jihadi' killings, End BOMBINGS and killing of civilians!!! End suicide attacks! STOP KILLING PEOPLE!! Tell them to STOP KILLING PEOPLE.

Speak up and let the world know that "this is not 'real' Islam" and then work to STOP THEM!!!!
That's what.
Publicly CONDEMN the actions of the 'ignorant Muslims' carrying on with their genocidal onslaught!!!!

It's not that complicated, log7!

And still, you have not claimed allegiance to any particular sect of Islam.
Why not??

Now I haven't read any of this thread past the OP, and I don't see any reason or need to. It'll just be a bunch of bigots congratulating each other.
What is it with these islamophobes and their obsession with rape hoaxes? It would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious. Someone makes up a story, and then the islamophobes pile in to pat each other on the back on what a backward and vile place the middle east is with all their rapey clerics. Congratulations everyone, you really put down those dirty muslims that time!

musafurber.com...

So this Father David character, supposedly our "man on the ground", a missionary in Syria, tells us that Yasir al-Ajlawni (actually Yasin) a Jordanian salafi residing in Damascus (actually residing in Jordan) released a video that was "making the rounds on youtube" (no such video exists anywhere on youtube, and lets be honest, if the uploader took it down after the fallout, hundreds of other people would've gotten it beforehand and uploaded copies) where the Jordanian Salafi decreed rape was okay (which the actual guy explicitly denied, and again, being totally honest here, if he was as hardcore fundy extremist as everyone claims he was, and he lived in the Middle East, far away from any supposed retribution, why would he care to hide it if he had actually said that in the first place?).

Yeah, totally legit .

reply to post by butcherguy


"The stories that we hear, along with a girl missing her nose, because her husband cut it off as punishment for running away"

That's some sick crap i always find it hard to comprehend how a Man of any religion can hurt Women or Children.

All I can say is that if this happened where I hail from the beast in question would not be walking around for much longer! He would have more than his nose removed, slowly!

reply to post by babloyi


babloyi,
I'm glad you joined us. I understand your irritation, and I appreciate you letting us know that the story is bogus.

That helps a lot.
Nevertheless, before you go - calling us all ignorant Islamophobes because we are responding to what evidence we have - which is a horrible war in Syria, bombings and killings on both sides, talk of "payback", and regular honor killings and mutilations...
please be aware that we want those things to STOP. It's abhorrent, and should not be happening. If the media is the only entity to blame, then it is on THEM, not on those of us trying like hell to figure it out all out.

Ten plus years - Iraq, Afghanistan, still messes. Arab Spring, solved very little, people died, and now in Turkey - still going on. Syrian war - between Muslim sects - being "supported" by outsiders with an agenda -
Palestine still lobbing rockets at Israel - Israel lobbing them at Palestine AND other places.

Can you please tell us what the Muslim leadership is doing to 'educate' the Muslims you all say are "ignorant" and "not following Islam"? We're very frustrated over here. I, at least, have made every effort to learn about "real" Islam, to get over my fear and confusion - people like you and logical7 have helped me.

But that doesn't take away the hideous daily slaughter going on between Muslims themselves, and against others.

Please, what do you suggest to STOP THE BLOODSHED? To STOP the "not really Muslims" from besmirching your faith? They're certainly not helping the "cause" of peaceful cohabitation. All we see is more people dying, maimed, devastated, homeless, suffering,.....a whole generation of little kids being FOREVER scarred by these atrocities - which results in them being screwed up and violent as youth and adults - and so it goes on and on. They dress their toddlers in fatigues and teach them "Jews must die" or "the West is Satan."

WHAT CAN BE DONE? And is there ANYTHING being done, that we aren't hearing about? I think if just one prominent Muslim leader would publicly condemn what's going on - it would help. But we don't see that. I try to watch the interviews with them - but I don't see any change in the violence.

reply to post by andy06shake

Here is a link to a story about Aesha, the girl whose nose and ears were cut off by her husband and in-laws. The action was decreed by a tribal council commander. The CNN story covers how her nose has been rebuilt.

CNN

reply to post by babloyi


Also, I am aware that the Black Ops maniacs in the military are interfering with subversive actions that NO CIVILIAN AMERICANS who are not directly involved know about. We have journalists investigating and exposing those monsters - I'm learning now about how Rumsfeld made this Joint Special Operations Command immune to Congressional oversight -

Those of us finding out are pitching a fit against OUR OWN LEADERS. I'd like to know if there are Muslims doing that sort of work - to expose the Muslim side of all this.

I understand that 'Western operatives' go over and threaten, bribe, coerce, and otherwise BULLY those leaders into submission - and I speak out AGAINST IT.
Can you assure us that there are Muslim activists working to do the same thing? If so, who are they, and where can I find their project results?

Right now I'm reading, "Dirty Wars" by Jeremy Scahill - for example -
I also read Lawrence Wright's book "The Looming Tower". Neither of them is easy, enjoyable reading and BOTH expose the Western blame - the lack of oversight on these JSOC forces, the infighting between the CIA, FBI, Pentagon, etc. The more we know (and it takes effort to find out), the more pissed off we are getting. Wright's 2006 book describes the background of bin Laden and the Al-Qaeda story - and it's also very disturbing.

Is there a counterpart on the Muslim side of things doing the same work to expose the behind-the-scenes stuff that keeps all this chaos going? I'm aware of the military/industrial complex, too - I don't need to start with "world politics 101" (although many people have no clue about it and SHOULD start paying attention), I just need to know that someone is out there working at exposing the Warmongering side of Islam and working hard to "educate" the "ignorant Muslims" about 'real Islamic values' and stop the bloodshed.

reply to post by butcherguy


"girl whose nose and ears were cut off by her husband and in-laws."

It just gets worse! Its not like he did it in a drunken rage(Which would in no way diminish said act). But its obviously premeditated and in line with what the extended family consider an acceptable act!

What I don't understand is why? I mean my current understanding is that a lot of Muslims consider their Women to be chattel, essentially there property(That's sad enough IMHO). My point is if ones Cow misbehaved you would not cut its nose and ears off as that would be rather counterproductive. There logic just baffles me, just seems evil to me, don't matter how you look at it.

Nice to see they have rebuild her face. Peace be upon you little Aesha!

reply to post by wildtimes

Hello Wildtimes!

I'm sorry if you felt hurt by my words, I haven't seen what any specific person said in this thread, just a lot of generalised "what a backward religion!", "what is it with this culture?", "Islam is so evil!", etc. It just annoyed me that people take this vileness as so endemic of Islam and muslims (when it is not) that nobody even bothered to investigate the truth of the matter.

You ask what the "Muslim Leadership" is doing. The "Muslim Leadership" is doing nothing. There is no such thing as the "Muslim Leadership" except perhaps in Iran with the Shi'as. Aside from some strains of Shi'aism, Islam doesn't have a clerical hierarchy or leadership. An "Imam" is simply the person who leads the congregation in the prayer. They have no authority over their congregation, and the congregation has every right to disagree with anything the Imam says if they feel it is wrong.

For example, this wrongly tarred "Sheikh Yasin al-Ajlawni" explicitly described as a "Jordanian Salafi" (i.e. sunni), even if he HAD said any such thing, he has no authority over any other muslims. I don't know whether he actually is a Sheikh (a traditional title that implies a certain number of years of study of Islam), or just likes the word and wished to style himself that way, but if he IS a Sheikh, he has (again according to built up tradition,) the allowance to give "fatwas" on specific matters.

Now again, a "fatwa" is simply an opinion on a religious matter, usually including an explanation or backing from the scripture. However, no muslim has any religious obligation to follow the fatwa, nor does the giver of the fatwa have any authority to impose it. There are many cases of different Sheikhs giving contradictory fatwas, based on different interpretations of the scripture.

Sorry for the long side-track and unwanted lesson. I just wished to clear things up. I'm not sure what can be done to "STOP THE BLOODSHED", I'm not sure the bloodshed will ever be stopped, it'll just pass on to different people. But I don't believe the instigators or even the perpetrators of this bloodshed have anything to do with religion, they just occasionally make use of it to further their own personal or political goals, because it makes a useful rallying cry.
Most of the terrorists, or instigators of bloodshed on the "Muslim" side of things attempt to justify their horrendous acts by claiming they're in response to "Western aggression" or "Western Oppression" or Western occupation of their lands, and while it certainly doesn't justify what they do, you can certainly see where they're coming from. A random Yemeni/Afghani/Pakistani/Iraqi/Whatever who had his father killed by a drone strike isn't going to be discerning in his hatred for those he perceives did it.

The US-led forces are now slowly extricating themselves from this mess, but I believe it is possibly too late now to even do that. If you've seen the movie "Charlie Wilson's War" (or read the book), you may remember the sombre ending- the US funded those opposing the Russians, they were heroes back then, and then when all that was done, the US just up and left, leaving impressionable, zealous youth with lots of weapons and absolutely no infrastructure for growth, with what was there before totally destroyed. The same is happening again.

Education is the eventual solution, if you ask me, but it is a slow working one. It may be difficult to believe today, considering all the media focus on this stuff, but these extremist groups were on the fringes of society only a couple generations ago- in countries like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq they weren't taken seriously, they were condemned and understood as the fanatics that they are. Then a couple of wars or conflicts (yay communism!) and vested business (yay oil!) and political interests drew them out as a weapon, and now that weapon has turned against those who originally held it.

But loads IS being done. All Leaders in muslim countries (not "Muslim Leaders") condemn such stuff. Muslim scholars condemn such stuff en-masse. I guess it doesn't make the news because it isn't interesting? "Muslim leader condemns terrorists"? For example, the recent attack in Woolwich drew universal condemnation from all Muslim groups.

reply to post by babloyi


Thank you, that was very reassuring and helpful.

Yes, I know there is no "pope" or "bishop" sort of hierarchy in Islam itself - and that anyone can claim to be a cleric.

I meant more for World Leaders (presidents, PMs, business-moguls, lawyers, prosecutors, whatever "role" - even though I inherently mistrust ALL of that lot anyway ) who are ALSO Muslims to be speaking out. If they are doing so, that's GREAT!!

I don't know why we're not seeing THAT in the media!
That would help immensely - although I know you and log7 and other Muslim members on here are trying to demystify and straighten out what Islam really means (and I believe all of you are sincere and making an effort) - there are also many of us non-Muslims who want VERY MUCH to believe that 'real' "Islamic values" are anti-violence, anti-education, etc.

Yes, the media does show the horror stories of mutilated and killed "disobedient" females - whether they are trying to escape abusive forced marriages, or go to school - we don't get to hear about the folow-up prosecution and justice being done, though, if there is any

Would a Sharia court exonerate a man who murders his sister's lover and tries to hack her to death? Or would they sentence him to life in prison? How does Sharia law court work in comparison with US legal system (secular)?

Do these people just "get away" with it? We see the recovery and surgery stories, but we don't see the criminals getting arrested or imprisoned. I'd really like to know more about how a "Sharia court" would handle these killing extremists and the violent 'rebels' and 'governments/militaries' who are killing their own countrymen. Will they be brought to account for war crimes?

I know GW Bush should be indicted, definitely Rumsfeld, and Obama and McCain as well -- if they are knowingly going along with JSOC activities that Congress and the Pentagon know nothing about. I am FURIOUS to learn about these things ....
I would hope that mainstream Muslims would be just as furious at those propelling the slaughters as well.

Thanks for your help, again. Always a pleasure talking to you!

reply to post by wildtimes

Hey again, Wildtimes!

Originally posted by wildtimes
I meant more for World Leaders (presidents, PMs, business-moguls, lawyers, prosecutors, whatever "role" - even though I inherently mistrust ALL of that lot anyway

) who are ALSO Muslims to be speaking out. If they are doing so, that's GREAT!!

They certainly do. Whenever some such incident occurs, most of these leaders issue a statement condemning what happened, but again, for many of these countries, but as you say, I don't see these leaders as being relevant or representative of the people.

Originally posted by wildtimes
Would a Sharia court exonerate a man who murders his sister's lover and tries to hack her to death? Or would they sentence him to life in prison? How does Sharia law court work in comparison with US legal system (secular)?

Do these people just "get away" with it? We see the recovery and surgery stories, but we don't see the criminals getting arrested or imprisoned. I'd really like to know more about how a "Sharia court" would handle these killing extremists and the violent 'rebels' and 'governments/militaries' who are killing their own countrymen. Will they be brought to account for war crimes?

"Sharia court" is a bit of a confusing term to use. I don't think there's any place in the world with a country-wide legal system that comprehensively deals with all legal matters based off only the scriptures, and I don't think there CAN be. Heck, of the countries that claim to have their laws derived FROM the sharia, their laws don't even match up (and in many situations contradict each other). Some don't even have a legal system- I think Saudi Arabia deals with court cases on an individual basis, with everything up the discretion of the judge.

These terrorists, whenever they're caught certainly don't get away with it. Heck, I'd say that the punishment in many muslim countries is far more severe- After a quick trial, usually death, or occasionally deportation to US authorities in cases where the country is nominally aligned with the US (Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, etc.).

Originally posted by wildtimes
I appreciate you letting us know that the story is bogus.

He quoted a muslim blog. That's not exactly solid information .. ya' know?
I'd need something a little more solid before I'll buy it.

Originally posted by babloyi
What is it with these islamophobes and their obsession with rape hoaxes?

What is it with these islam-apologists and their obsession with denial?
So give the cleric a free pass ... and vilify those who dare discuss it. Typical. :shk:

Feel free to link the youtube video the article talked about (or any one of the copies that would definitely exist if you claim that the uploader took it down) that was "making the rounds", if you'd care to prove otherwise. What do I give this "cleric" a free pass at? Not saying what you claim he did?

I certainly vilify those who straight up invent stories in attempts to denigrate others. This "Father David" character seems to be pretty hypocritical and definitely one of those "false christians". But I suppose you'd prefer listening to someone who conforms to your world views about the eeevil eeevil muslims.

reply to post by babloyi

These terrorists, whenever they're caught certainly don't get away with it. Heck, I'd say that the punishment in many muslim countries is far more severe- After a quick trial, usually death, or occasionally deportation to US authorities in cases where the country is nominally aligned with the US (Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, etc.).

Okay, yes, the warzone terrorists, I can see them getting deported to US....

BUT...what about the brutal family members who mutilate or kill their daughters or sons? What recourse does Aesha have, for example? It's certainly not a US situation, she came/was brought here for HELP, and got it!

So, the perpetrator (and others like the guy who hacked his sister almost to death and DID kill her lover when she ran away from her abusive old-man forced husband) have to be tried and sentenced locally. How are those cases handled?
Is it child-endangerment for the parents to marry a 13-year old off to a 60-yr old man? Is it child abuse?
ARE THERE laws about child and spousal abuse and honor killings, etc. in the jurisdictions in Muslim locales? Are charges brought against THOSE a-holes?

I know the family who killed their rebelling daughter and were living in England at the time were brought up on murder charges. Her sister turned them in. Sickening, what they did.

If they had been in their home country would they have been charged and tried for murder?

reply to post by wildtimes

While I think there are maybe one or two muslim majority countries in the world where a crime of passion (killing if you find your spouse committing adultery) is a valid defense in court (also valid in a couple of South American countries), I don't think there is any muslim majority country in the world where pre-meditated murder or attacking or assault is legal under the "protection of honour", so of course, they wouldn't be let off the hook.

reply to post by babloyi


It was reported in the Jordan news. Our member MichaelM was going to help us get a translation of the 'Sheikh's' response to Austrian Muslim women who were going to sue him.


The Sheikh himself responded to the announcement of the lawsuit and said, supposedly - according to what Michael and the "Google translator" page of the Arabic news site said although the translated bit was nearly impossible to comprehend -- what he said to those women filing suit was, "that's not what I said."

I'm trying to figure out where it got "spun". He did acknowledge having said it, he just denied that he meant what came across to the Muslim women who heard him speak/saw the vid!! So, it wasn't just 'some blogger' dissing it.
It DID exist (I didn't see it), and it was reported to have been denounced by Muslim women! That seems pretty much evidence to me that the guy is a POOR SPEAKER -
or else the interpreters who 'gave the "English version" or "Austrian version" were all terrible interpreters.

Which is most likely, in my opinion? That he said it and tried to backpedal. At LEAST he said it ambiguously....
but,
as you said, maybe he's a self-styled nutjob who everyone ignores.
Except for the Austrian Muslim women who are suing him and the spooked Americans who are shown these stories every damned day. There's not ONE DAY that goes by without some violence conducted 'by Muslims' being reported.
NOT ONE DAY!! I would think I was in a dream if I checked the regular several news sites I refer to and there wasn't a story of violence among Muslims or done by Muslims.

reply to post by babloyi


Double

Post