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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by ElohimJD
Whatever makes you feel better about yourself. Just remember - faith doesn't fill an empty stomach.
Whatever makes you feel logical and intellectual about yourself. Just remember - man does not live on bread alone, but by every word (logos) of the Eternal.
it is interesting that my scientific reasons for believing something beyond the universe had a hand in it's creation is the only point you did not address.
Then explain to me two things: 1) How do the established scientific principles of this universe as we know it concretely proof that there must be a deity in existence?
the first bit of this sentence is a logical fallacy of the ad hominem variety, the second fallacy is an argument from ignorance.
2) What qualifies you as an expert on the subject, considering the most renowned scientific research facilities in the world cannot say for a fact that there is a deity?
The observable scientific principles of my "delusion" match precisely with the observable scientific principles of your "delusion", suggesting that we share the same delusion.
in my thought experiment there is no "we", only you. obviously a product of your delusion would fit within the parameters of your delusion.
the end result is that you will have to accept that you cannot prove whether this is real or a personal delusion. you take it on blind faith, no evidence supports either assumption, an act you criticize theists for. i do not mean this as an insult in any way, i'm just pointing out how you consider this acceptable when the question of whether this is a delusion is brought up, but unacceptable when the question of a god is brought up. i've already given a few of my reasons for believing in a god/higher power/prime mover, those reasons include, but are not limited to, a lack of known physics properties to explain the universe's existence without intervention.
That would imply the universe is not, in fact, infinite. This would then require evidence on your part giving me adequate reason to believe that not only is the universe finite, but you have adequate reason to know what lies beyond its borders. How is it you know something our lavishly funded scientists do not?
Entropy is a measure of the number of specific ways in which a system may be arranged, often taken to be a measure of disorder. The entropy of an isolated system never decreases, because isolated systems spontaneously evolve towards thermodynamic equilibrium, which is the state of maximum entropy.
The universe is about 14 billion years old
So every time I ask anyone for a reason to believe they know anything about a subject beyond what they believe themselves to know, it's an ad hominem attack?
Ad hominem is Latin for "to the man." The ad hominem fallacy occurs when one asserts that somebody's claim is wrong because of something about the person making the claim.
It's not an argument from ignorance. It's an observation that you apparently know something they do not.
Which is interesting on an even deeper level because apparently, they aren't earning the good money we give them to come up with an answer that's so obvious, a less educated and less trained person can solidly prove it.
We can play this game all day, all night, and all day again. The fact is, neither of us can know if we are delusional
so it's more productive to assume that neither of us are delusional.
You still have no evidence other than your desire to believe and your conditioning to continue doing so.
There's more reasons not to believe in a god, partially due to previous pathetic efforts to build an argument in favor of a god, than there are to believe in a ruling higher power.
You choose to believe because you don't have a better answer.
Belief out of ignorance is no better than argument out of ignorance.
If the universe is finite, which it may be, wouldn't that mean that there could be infinite universes? Also, how does a finite universe indicate a god, or assume that god is the creator of universes. If there IS a god, couldn't there be infinite gods as well?
I'm done discussing this with you. We're not getting anywhere, and honestly, I'm swiftly losing interest in what you have to say because you're spending more time trying to call technicalities on my points than actually making any points of your own. A common tactic on the forums. Bye.
Originally posted by windword
I absolutely am offended by the 10 Commandments.
Originally posted by windword
I'm insulted that women are considered property,
my reasoning is based on establishing that our universe is most likely the product of some higher power, and there certainly could exist other beings of power outside of time, but one god is the most likely. it would cause contradictions to have multiple all-powerful beings ever existing.
I absolutely am offended by the 10 Commandments. I'm offended by a deity that commands me to worship him or die. I'm offended by the hypocrisy of "Thou Shalt Not Kill" and what actually ensues afterwards. I'm insulted that women are considered property, and that property rights are defined at all in these "ultimate truths." I could go on and on, but I actually did a thread on my grievances against the 10 Commandments, The 10 Commandments are Unnecessary, Irrelevant and Immoral
I can envision a universe that didn't have a beginning, but is eternally becoming. It's constantly changing, but it doesn't have to have a beginning any more than "god" does.
I don't see that logic at all. If one god exists, in all probability, multiple gods exist. The fact that many superstructures exist with a galaxy doesn't contradict the power of the others
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor’s.
And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: