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Woman Fatally Shot by Police at Cosco Handing Out Pizza Samples.

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posted on Jun, 3 2013 @ 04:52 PM
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Originally posted by PhyberDragon1
reply to post by flyswatter
 


"once the choice to pull the trigger is made, it should absolutely be a shot to kill, and that goes for anyone, not just cops."

Use of force should be used to either: dissuade her from a particular course of action, or to physically intervene to stop her and should only use the amount of force necessary to control the incident, effect an arrest, or protect themselves or others from harm or death. That is, other levels of force must have been attempted first unless lethal force is the only way to minimize loss of life. That is to say, they should have used negotiation or other "conflict resolution" techniques. If she refused to desist, or attempts to flee, progress from verbal orders, through to physical restraint, up to wounding or injuring her, if possible. If it was not possible, then and only then, use lethal force. Killing her can only be justified if there was sufficient evidence to suggest that it was reasonable to believe that she posed an imminent threat to the life or well-being of another. If there was an alternative, then, there was no imminent threat requiring killing her. Short of that, if one just shoots to kill every time they pull a gun, instead of seeking a more least restrictive alternative first, like some other method to resolve the situation that doesn't require the gun or shooting to wound or injure, instead of just killing, if it did require the gun, then, maybe, that person lacks skills and good judgement and should not have a gun. And, perhaps, their state of mind should be evaluated and they should possibly be removed from society. Additionally, if ones intent is to kill and nothing else when they pull a gun and that can be proven (like comments they may make online or elsewhere), then, they might be charged for murder with intent to kill -- cop or otherwise.

Starship Captain, James T. Kirk: Ah! We come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, shoot to kill;
we come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, men. -- Star Trekkin', The Firm

Sources of info:
www.nij.gov...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
edit on 3-6-2013 by PhyberDragon1 because: additional info


The decision point of pulling the trigger is after the point of verbal requests, verbal warnings, and non-lethal use of force. The line you quoted out of my post has nothing to do with the use of force being justified or not; it deals with the end goal of what should be the final course of action in any confrontation. What you posted after my quote dealt with everything up to and including the pulling of the gun. We're speaking of two different issues here.




posted on Jun, 3 2013 @ 05:46 PM
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Originally posted by Maverick7
You act as though the cops were just sitting around enjoying a donut and a knife waving Viking berserker woman descended upon them.


Umm no, Your confused and misled self decided to make that reckless assumption.


No, they had ample warning, ample time to get geared up and ample time to respond in a large overwhelming force. After all keeping other COSTCO customers safe was clearly NOT their priority. They didn't even clear the store. They RUSHED in, being heroic discovered that a 5'3, 38 yo woman provoked unreasoning fear in ONE of them and he shot her five times, as though she was a charging rhinoceros.


More reckless assumptions, because you were not present at the scene now were you?


His partner clearly did not panic, he didn't shoot her at all.


Could it be because he already pulled out his taser, you think, maybe huh?
~$heopleNation
edit on 3-6-2013 by SheopleNation because: TypO



posted on Jun, 3 2013 @ 06:03 PM
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Originally posted by TheMagus
1-translation: i don't really give a shizzle, but will sociop*COUGH* "sanely" pretend to
2-this cop "hater"* lives in jurisdiction, where as of january past, police follow a policy of shoot to kill at the least sign of resistance resistance includes raising your voice, arguing, or making any sudden moves

ROFL

as of january past, i have a policy of my own, to be applied at the least sign of initialization of force, which includes intentionally invading my personal space to trigger fight/flight reactions. the local cops have been apprised of this, none have seen fit to call my "bluff" as of yet. [keyboard "tough" guys need not apply.]

*one only hates that which one fears

3-not even going to debate this one, as it is merely a projection of police-think,[oxymoron, I know] not everyone is a shivering, cowardly, sociopa*COUGH* Defender of the "Sane Society" with a trigger finger starting at their own shadow. never mind the extremely offensive projection of lackadaisical carelessness regarding the security of ones children in public.

4-tragedy indeed for the murder victim and her loved ones, especially her kids, who will then have salt rubbed in the wounds in terms of seeing accountability and justice.
for her killer, [and accomplice] it's a career milestone, followed by raises in rank and pay,
hence a comedy.


What the hell are you rambling about? Translated = Dysfunction junction.

Like I said before, it's a shame that this women had to lose her life. However, you can't go waving a knife around in a threatening manner in a public place like Costco that is usually packed with people where you're basically tripping over them. You were not at the scene, you were not there to see what went occured.

If you don't like my opinion, too bad because opinions are what we give here at ATS. One day you might come to understand that is the way it works around here. Good Luck! ~$heopleNation
edit on 3-6-2013 by SheopleNation because: TypO



posted on Jun, 3 2013 @ 06:30 PM
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Why are so many men so vicious toward women??? Don't they have mothers? Isn't it possible that the lady had those items in her hands because it was her job to have those items in her hands? She was justifiably upset. Who wouldn't be upset if they are passing out samples of product, hoping to get a commission from the sale of the product and the store is out of stock? Why would she want to pass out product that a customer couldn't purchase? Maybe, she was finally fed up with listening to the customers complain and felt she needed to voice her frustration. Why do so many men now a days seem to feel so threatened by a woman voicing her frustration? In her attempt to tell her side of the story, she forgot she had those items in her hands and for that she was viciously gunned her down in cold blood. It is a very scary time to be a woman. Who will protect us from our protectors?



posted on Jun, 3 2013 @ 06:45 PM
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reply to post by ladytamatha
 


I don't believe that this incident had anything to do with her being a Women at all whatsoever. However, I do 100% agree that SOME Men treat Women very, very cruely. What we need are much harsher penalties for the creeps who harm Women. ~$heopleNation



posted on Jun, 3 2013 @ 09:54 PM
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reply to post by SheopleNation
 

Thank you for responding to my post, SheopleNation. I really appreciate hearing from you. You seem like one of the GOOD guys and I can't begin to tell you how nice it is to meet you here in the spirit world of ATS.
You're probably right. Maybe, it didn't have anything to do with her being a woman. But I can't help wonder, if those men had even tried to listen to her side of the story, maybe she would still be alive today. Just about every single girlfriend I have has had the holy crud knocked out of them by their spouses or boyfriends. One of my girlfriends happens to be an X-Victoria Secret Model until her jealous Doctor boyfriend nearly broke every bone in her body. He initially wanted to date her because she was gorgeous, sweet, famous and beautiful. When they started dating, he began to hate her because she was beautiful and successful. The very thing that attracted him to her was the very thing he tried to destroy her for? He didn't like other men looking at her and blamed her when they did. The more she tried to reason with him, the more enraged he would become. He wanted all the attention and felt like she was stealing his show. She spent two years recovering from the brutal beating she took with the mans baseball bat. The coward had to use a weapon. He put the poor girl in a coma! They didn't think she would live. She still has the scars from the beating and the numerous surgeries she had to undergo to get her body back together. Her career is over. Her self esteem is shot. Although, she is still beautiful and lovely, on the inside and on the outside, she will never have the confidence she once had and she will never trust again. HE GOT OFF SCOT FREE. He had lot's of money and he was able to buy his way out of his assault charges. Meanwhile, my girlfriend can hardly walk. He should have been brought up on attempted murder charges but alas... He is free to harm another. I agree with you that it is only SOME MEN that are capable of doing such harm to the weaker sex but it seems like their numbers are growing. We women, look to men to love and protect us. We NEED YOU TO LOVE AND PROTECT US... We count on you as men and the dominant sex to love and protect us. Part of loving a woman is listening to her, even when, what she has to say, makes you feel uncomfortable. Seem like so many men now a days would rather beat us up to shut us up. This article seemed to me, to be another case of STFU OR ELSE. She wouldn't shut up so they made her shut up for good. I know I'm probably going to get hammered for saying these things but I bet ya, just about every woman who has dealt with that sort of attitude from SOME MEN will agree... Some men can't handle it when a woman speaks her peace. It makes them flip out. They justify their monstrous behavior by saying things like: She was just another loud mouthed Biotch that wouldn't shut up so she got what she deserved. When they get off the hook, it only reinforces unjustified right to be monsters and the behavior is repeated. I know all men aren't like that. My brothers don't beat their wives. My step dad doesn't beat my mom and they never have so I know there are good men out there. That being said, I believe YOU SheopleNation are one of the GOOD GUYS. Thanks again for your reply. I'm delighted to meet a GOOD MAN here on ATS. Cheers!



posted on Jun, 3 2013 @ 11:22 PM
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Originally posted by opethPA

Originally posted by AmmonSeth
Do not kill. Do not rape. Do not steal.
These are principles that every man of every faith can embrace.

NEVER is it acceptable to kill someone,
The fact that American police swan about with guns all the time is absurd
If they cannot police people through the use of reason and respect,
Then they are NOT police. They are just licensed murderers.

Take firearms away from the many!!

They are a war machine and have no place in villages, towns, cities etc.

Shame on all of you who try to justify murdering your fellow man.


Good luck living in a fantasy world.


And yet nearly the entire populace of the modern civilised world arent 'policed' by firearms,

Respect and common decency go a LONG way,

The fact that most people replying seem to think its FINE to murder someone is beyond warped....

There was also someone saying the only way to stop murders is to give everyone guns?!?!
What the holy hell was he smoking when he wrote that?!

Jesus people, Murder is WRONG! whether its a 'legal' murder or not!

Granted there may be some ridiculous situations that will never happen to 99% of the population,
Which you may be left with no choice than to do something drastic...
I.E some maniac trying to beat you to death, so your only option is to knock them unconscious etc.

The rest of the time, Be respectful, Decent, Understanding and if that doesnt work you always have the option to walk away. Failing that call the police (real police, not american police, seeing as its clear they need to sort their entire populace's views on murdering people and justice system out first) and let them with their advanced training in these situations defuse it safely without people getting seriously harmed or murdered


As I said in a previous post, Many many years ago I was once witness to a woman threatening CHILDREN with a knife and was privy to see the police response (in the U.K)
They showed up in fair numbers (no armed police necessary), one dog-unit responded specially,
They spoke to the woman calmly and decently explaining the situation and why they were called,
They tried to find out what was going on but unfortunately as was the case the woman was being uncooperative,
So the Dog-Handler assumed control and told her that she needed to put the knife on the ground calmly or he was going to release his german shepherd on her.

She put the knife down, No one was harmed, Situation over

No murders necessary


Murders are still a rare thing in the U.K, so all that arguing over "there will be more murders if you make guns illegal" etc. etc. are simply un true, Sure there are the occasional proper sicko's like in woolwich recently,
But besides that, Its a pretty nice and safe place to live


In 2010 in the U.S there were 14,748 recorded homicides...
In 2011 in the U.K there were 619 recorded homicides...

Way to go america, you had FOURTEEN THOUSAND more murders than the U.K,
But you obviously have nothing to learn from here and of course your opinions about legal murders are perfectly justified :')

Oh and to put that in perspective given that yes you do have a larger population,
The U.S has a population of 314million, the U.K has a population of 62 million,
So the U.S population is roughly 5 times larger,

Apply that to the recorded murders, 619 x 5 = 3,095, That would still be ELEVEN THOUSAND fewer murders even with an equally scaled population


Stop being so arrogant that you're right, The U.K is NOT perfect by any means,
But can you (americans) imagine living in a country where murder is a RARE occurance?
Can you imagine how much safer you would feel knowing that you're country only suffered 3,095 murders rather than FOURTEEN THOUSAND?

*rant over*



posted on Jun, 4 2013 @ 12:07 AM
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Originally posted by ladytamatha
Why are so many men so vicious toward women??? Don't they have mothers? Isn't it possible that the lady had those items in her hands because it was her job to have those items in her hands? She was justifiably upset. Who wouldn't be upset if they are passing out samples of product, hoping to get a commission from the sale of the product and the store is out of stock? Why would she want to pass out product that a customer couldn't purchase? Maybe, she was finally fed up with listening to the customers complain and felt she needed to voice her frustration. Why do so many men now a days seem to feel so threatened by a woman voicing her frustration? In her attempt to tell her side of the story, she forgot she had those items in her hands and for that she was viciously gunned her down in cold blood. It is a very scary time to be a woman. Who will protect us from our protectors?


did you read the articles, she grabbed a knife from someone elses stand and was saying crazy things, they called the cops, people stampeded out of the costco

here is what I posted earlier

here is some info

the dead woman , mhai scott, was 38 and the divorced mother of 2 girls, ages 8 and 12

ashburn.patch.com...



Renee Haber, a front end manager at the store near the busy intersection of Cascades Parkway and Route 7, told the Post the incident began with the woman grabbed a knife from another station and was making “strange movements” while making "crazy" comments

“She was frightening her supervisor,” Haber told the paper. She said workers there called police

the cop who fired the shots and the cop that was injured are on administrative leave while this is investigated.
edit on 4-6-2013 by research100 because: correct spelling add laST PARAGRAPH

edit on 4-6-2013 by research100 because: SPELLING



posted on Jun, 4 2013 @ 01:08 AM
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Thank you for responding. Yes, I did read the article. I admit, I read the article on a different conspiracy web site. To my knowledge, the information you have provided was not mentioned on the other site. I didn't read ANYTHING about the lady taking the knife away from someone else. The article I read, stated she already had the utensils in her hands due to her job description. Yes, they mentioned that she was really upset and someone called the police. The article mentioned that the police opened fire with shoppers still in the store and how shocked they were that the police would open fire with so many shoppers in the area. Truth be told, I wasn't there so I don't know what the truth might be.

I'm old enough to remember a time in our country when things like this just wouldn't happen. There has been a change in this country. In the old days lethal use of force was a last resort. Now a days it seems like our society has become, shoot first and ask questions later. I for one, don't want to fear my protectors. I want to honor them and see them as the HERO'S I grew up to believe they are. As a woman, this article and the other article where the woman was beaten black and blue, by men dressed, in black and blue, concerns me. Lethal force should always be a last resort. Why didn't they taze her? Pepper spray her? Anything other then kill her? Life is a very precious gift to all of us. How did it become seen as being so cheap?



posted on Jun, 4 2013 @ 04:04 AM
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Originally posted by junglimogli
reply to post by MongusePro
 


Handing out samps at Costo isn't exactly a good job .. we all have bad days ..
So are we saying that it's ok for the pigs to shoot anyone having a bad day ?
Anyone having a bad day uses some bad language and possibly just waves something here and there .. maybe to even point at the people who pissed 'um off ..
Whatever the case .. tazed and then shot to death ... wow!
The dude is right .. she could have been subdued in any other way .. even just throwing a blanket over her is enough to subdue her .. pigs are way out of control!


Excuse me mate?

Pigs?!... I appreciate you have an emotional attachment to the story but i can assure you, pigs are a type of animal. These are police officers, good or bad.



posted on Jun, 4 2013 @ 10:33 AM
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Originally posted by AmmonSeth

Stop being so arrogant that you're right, The U.K is NOT perfect by any means,
But can you (americans) imagine living in a country where murder is a RARE occurance?
Can you imagine how much safer you would feel knowing that you're country only suffered 3,095 murders rather than FOURTEEN THOUSAND?

*rant over*


It has nothing to do with arrogance.
Violent people live in every country and every corner of the world.
Also I am sure the families of those 3095 people that were murdered in the UK feel very safe.

Until you can remove the violent element from humanity then you are risk of being murdered regardless of what country you live in.



posted on Jun, 4 2013 @ 10:52 AM
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This has shocked me, and I thought I was beyond all that.
It sounds like the woman was having some sort of breakdown, so she was shot because she was mad?
What would the Police have done if guns were not allowed? How about - evacuate the store, talk to her and calm her down, or wait until she had calmed down herself. Tear gas perhaps? Chocolate and a cup of tea?
Unless she had gone for someone with the knife and someones life was in imminent danger, The action of the Police is outrageous and scary.



posted on Jun, 4 2013 @ 11:54 AM
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Originally posted by tazdeill2
This has shocked me, and I thought I was beyond all that.
It sounds like the woman was having some sort of breakdown, so she was shot because she was mad?
What would the Police have done if guns were not allowed? How about - evacuate the store, talk to her and calm her down, or wait until she had calmed down herself. Tear gas perhaps? Chocolate and a cup of tea?
Unless she had gone for someone with the knife and someones life was in imminent danger, The action of the Police is outrageous and scary.


Unless the information that the situation was presenting made the cop that shot her feel that someones life was in imminent danger.

As much as the "Cops are evil" crowd want to believe it each situation like this is fluid and dynamic. Their are no two people that act the same in a stressful situation.

I wish the cop would not have shot her but way more than that I wish that the suspect would not have caused the situation.



posted on Jun, 4 2013 @ 09:46 PM
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Originally posted by opethPA

Originally posted by AmmonSeth

Stop being so arrogant that you're right, The U.K is NOT perfect by any means,
But can you (americans) imagine living in a country where murder is a RARE occurance?
Can you imagine how much safer you would feel knowing that you're country only suffered 3,095 murders rather than FOURTEEN THOUSAND?

*rant over*


It has nothing to do with arrogance.
Violent people live in every country and every corner of the world.
Also I am sure the families of those 3095 people that were murdered in the UK feel very safe.

Until you can remove the violent element from humanity then you are risk of being murdered regardless of what country you live in.


There werent 3,095 murders in the U.K, you mis-quoted me,
I said there were 619 murders.... but even if we scaled the number up to match our population to yours,
The U.K wouldve still only suffered 3,095 compared to your FOURTEEN THOUSAND!!

Idiots in america who believe in allowing guns etc. (even throughout law enforcement) are who is allowing
FOURTEEN THOUSAND murders a year in your country.

Take a page out of TRUE civilised country's books and DO AWAY WITH FIREARMS,



posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 10:35 AM
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Originally posted by opethPA

Originally posted by tazdeill2
This has shocked me, and I thought I was beyond all that.
It sounds like the woman was having some sort of breakdown, so she was shot because she was mad?
What would the Police have done if guns were not allowed? How about - evacuate the store, talk to her and calm her down, or wait until she had calmed down herself. Tear gas perhaps? Chocolate and a cup of tea?
Unless she had gone for someone with the knife and someones life was in imminent danger, The action of the Police is outrageous and scary.


Unless the information that the situation was presenting made the cop that shot her feel that someones life was in imminent danger.

As much as the "Cops are evil" crowd want to believe it each situation like this is fluid and dynamic. Their are no two people that act the same in a stressful situation.

I wish the cop would not have shot her but way more than that I wish that the suspect would not have caused the situation.


I'm not of the 'all cops are evil' school, but it does seem that some of them are way out of control.
I have a vid on here of cops shooting a dog dead that was doing absolutely nothing - they had it in a restrainer and it was at their mercy. I read more and more about cops who are out of control, and it seems to have escalated. I worry for the people who will suffer at the hands of these cops, and the good cops who will suffer at the hands of people who assume all cops have gone bad, and get in first. I worry about the pack mentality of some of the bad cops and the future of law and order. I simply cannot accept that a woman wielding a knife and a pair of scissors had to be shot dead, it just doesn't make sense, she could have had an epileptic fit, just lost it, pmt, swatting a fly- anything - but did she deserve to die for it? Surely there are worse people on death row than that poor woman. police as judge, jury and executioners? No, no, no. She could have been your Mother, Sister,Girlfriend,Wife,Neighbour. She can't tell us why she did it now.



posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 11:59 AM
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Originally posted by ladytamatha
Thank you for responding. Yes, I did read the article. I admit, I read the article on a different conspiracy web site. To my knowledge, the information you have provided was not mentioned on the other site. I didn't read ANYTHING about the lady taking the knife away from someone else. The article I read, stated she already had the utensils in her hands due to her job description. Yes, they mentioned that she was really upset and someone called the police. The article mentioned that the police opened fire with shoppers still in the store and how shocked they were that the police would open fire with so many shoppers in the area. Truth be told, I wasn't there so I don't know what the truth might be.

I'm old enough to remember a time in our country when things like this just wouldn't happen. There has been a change in this country. In the old days lethal use of force was a last resort. Now a days it seems like our society has become, shoot first and ask questions later. I for one, don't want to fear my protectors. I want to honor them and see them as the HERO'S I grew up to believe they are. As a woman, this article and the other article where the woman was beaten black and blue, by men dressed, in black and blue, concerns me. Lethal force should always be a last resort. Why didn't they taze her? Pepper spray her? Anything other then kill her? Life is a very precious gift to all of us. How did it become seen as being so cheap?



THEY DID TAZE HER< IT DIDN"T WORK



posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 12:23 PM
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Originally posted by RoScoLaz
we are at a moment in time when the police have total carte blanche to do as they wish. they've never had it so 'good'. they are untouchable. they are all powerful. they are the last word.


Gosh you make it sounds like the mob. Oh, oh wait...

**CB backs out of the room hiding her "No Mo Po-Po" backpack and matching umbrella**



posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 04:30 PM
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reply to post by research100
 


That's all fine and well, but it looks like cover.

What movements? Did she specifically threaten anyone with the knife or was she gesturing with her hands?

What "crazy comments?"

My beef with this story in the media is that it is all fluff. Where is the actual description of her "crazy" behavior, in the words of actual witnesses to it? Perhaps it's out there somewhere and I just haven't seen it?

I'd also like to see a timeline, from the point she was intercepted by the officers to the shooting itself. What steps were taken to determine whether or not she was an actual threat, or was simply suffering from a seizure of some sort? How much time elapsed between these steps before the final decision to end the threat via lethal force was acted upon by the officers involved?

None of that is in ANY of the stories I have read so far. The cops may have done a FINE job (or perhaps they didn't) but the journalists who have reported on this story so far "suck hard."



posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 04:33 PM
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I am concerned that the officers story simply doesn't add up, when balanced against the witness statement that she was calm, and that her "crazy question" was:

"Why am I serving samples of a pizza we can't sell?"



posted on Jun, 5 2013 @ 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by 0zzymand0s
reply to post by research100
 


That's all fine and well, but it looks like cover.

What movements? Did she specifically threaten anyone with the knife or was she gesturing with her hands?

What "crazy comments?"

My beef with this story in the media is that it is all fluff. Where is the actual description of her "crazy" behavior, in the words of actual witnesses to it? Perhaps it's out there somewhere and I just haven't seen it?

I'd also like to see a timeline, from the point she was intercepted by the officers to the shooting itself. What steps were taken to determine whether or not she was an actual threat, or was simply suffering from a seizure of some sort? How much time elapsed between these steps before the final decision to end the threat via lethal force was acted upon by the officers involved?

None of that is in ANY of the stories I have read so far. The cops may have done a FINE job (or perhaps they didn't) but the journalists who have reported on this story so far "suck hard."


If you want information, go get police reports. Just because you havent heard the information does not mean the information is not recorded out there somewhere. And if you're going to look to witness statements on the matter, make sure that you're getting statements from multiple individuals and not just the ones that have already given a statement that fits your idea.



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