Woman Fatally Shot by Police at Cosco Handing Out Pizza Samples.

Originally posted by gunshooter

Originally posted by intrepid
No win situation for the cops here on ATS. The source says:

Scott reportedly became upset when she ran out of pizza, reported Northern Virginia Bureau Chief Julie Carey. Witnesses said she was waving a knife and scissors, threatening employees.

They used a stun gun first then a firearm. If they hadn't and an innocent was stabbed in the neck and died those here critical of the cops would then be saying they weren't doing their job.

C'mon, they couldn't shoot her in the leg? Or try and take the knife from her? They had to have known more about hand to hand than this lady. Or use your baton, and break her wrist, anything but kill her. You're right, this is a no win situation for the cops because all they know how to do act first, and don't want to think. Personally, I think the cops were scared as usual, and panicked.

and very lard-assed,
judging by all the "it's impossible to disarm or evade people waving blades!" excusifiers not willing to practice just a little self-discipline but sure are QUICK to recommend, impose, and apply "discipline" upon others.
often at gunpoint

Originally posted by intrepid
No win situation for the cops here on ATS. The source says:

Scott reportedly became upset when she ran out of pizza, reported Northern Virginia Bureau Chief Julie Carey. Witnesses said she was waving a knife and scissors, threatening employees.

They used a stun gun first then a firearm. If they hadn't and an innocent was stabbed in the neck and died those here critical of the cops would then be saying they weren't doing their job.

I wonder if they thought about a nicely placed club to the arm?.......I also wonder if they thought about shooting a leg out if the need to shoot was necessary?

Now obviously the staff and customers were well clear of the Pizza lady by time the cops arrived, one would assume anyhow.

No pepper spray? No second stun gun? hmmmmmm something stinks and I doubt it was the pizza lady.
All cops are well versed with a club and can do major stoppage in seconds with one, why not this time?

All I can say is if a trained cop can't drop a lady with a club or pepper spray then lord help us.

Mind you I was taught from a young age not to run around with scissors so I guess my Mom was correct, I just might kill myself.

Regards, Iwinder

reply to post by TheRedneck

That depends on the round.

It doesn't matter what round is being used, the transfer of energy from the round to the target is going to be less than from the round to your hand. That being said, yeah unless your ready for it getting shot by a .357 will falter just about anyone. Just the SOUND from one would make me fall down. There have been a few times at the range where someone switched over to a .357 and I almost pooed.

I will have to disagree with you that 5 shots is reasonable. I have trained myself if needed in self-defense to fire off two in quick succession, simply in case the first misses. When hunting, I fire off one single round.

I would not be at all surprised if you're a better shot than the average cop. Cops are pretty notorious for being bad shots. I was (been way too long to think I'm still any good, and last time at the range was just sad) a real good shot with a pistol, but I've never been in a combat situation like this, and would personally keep firing until the woman was on the ground (which is what cops are trained to do I believe). I could easily squeeze off 5 shots center mass at that distance in the time it took someone to go from upright to flat, even at my current level of ability.

I believe one or two shots to an untrained 28 year old mother would have taken her down. This was not a sniper situation; she was in a break room, which is not huge. So why keep firing?

I'm more of a candyass than you (sounds sarcastic, not meant to be). I would unload on someone regardless of sex/height/weight/age (OK maybe not age) until they were on the ground. I'd like to say I would shoot once, see what happened, then shoot again, but in that situation I'm putting as many rounds into the threat as possible until it's no longer moving toward me. If I'm ever in the situation where I feel deadly force is acceptable, I'm going to be as deadly as possible because I like my hide. To me, the close quarter environment makes it even more vital to put the threat down quickly.

At the end of the day I think this is yet another tragic situation and feel for everyone involved and their families. From the information available at this point, it seems to me the Officers acted appropriately.

In Korea if you wave a knife around angrily in a threatening manner, you're going to get kicked in the face repeatedly.



You know what's great about Korea? There's no such thing as abuse or assault because if you deserve to get kicked in the face it's called "natural".

reply to post by MongusePro


So let me get this straight Op and all of you cop haters this women went off the deep end and came at officers with a deadly weapon--(knife)--and they still tried to stun not kill her. In the end they did use deadly force to stop her and yet you are still crying about it.


What are the supposed to do just walk away they are paid to deal with this crap so citizens don't have to.



Crying about stories like this undermine actual cases of police brutality. Have some common sense people.

reply to post by grey580

Sometimes people don't use their heads.

*COUGH*

What is wrong with the cops?
The lady was probably having some mental episodes yet chose to shoot?
Why couldn't they have pinned her with a lader?
Costco sells ladders.
Or used some shopping cart to box her in and subdue her.

Nothing is wrong with the cops. They were responding to a call where a person was acting erratically and holding a knife. This is in a very large store, with a ton of people that could be potential victims. The first officers on scene needed to make contact immediately to separate the woman from the general public. They didn't have time to waltz around looking for a ladder to pin her with.

I wish people would at least try to visualize the totality of the circumstances before rushing to judge the cops. You really think that the officers should have looked around for a ladder while this woman holding a knife in a store with hundreds of people was acting odd enough to warrant a call to 911?

Way too many people on ATS live in this Hollywood fantasy land where the perfect shot to the kneecap saves the day, where cops are knife proof and all the potential bystanders disappear.

I'm really not sure which statement made me cringe harder, "Costco sells ladders" or "Corral her with shopping carts".

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by Bedlam

I'm sorry; I thought you were attributing them to the victim.

I suppose it is possible that the officer let the situation get the better of him; but that then begs the question of why is he a police officer in the first place?

As far as that goes, I guess we could let them get some real world practice, but I think most people would object...

Originally posted by Siberbat
My prayers go out to the family of the woman who was killed, and the officer's as well.

Not to get too far off topic (very good post by the way), but are you actually praying specifically for these people or is that just something you say. I've seen that alot on ATS. People's "prayers going out" to others. I'm just wondering if this is typically just lip service or if people are actually performing specific prayers.

Thanks.

Originally posted by yourmaker
Why don't we have a police unit that deals specifically with melee weapons............................

How hard would it be to have someone in kevlar and a riot shield bum rush her?

Knives go through kevlar, but I suppose the cops could carry some sort of chain mail and chain mail gloves in the trunk...

Although maybe a "whack job with a knife" call should have them open the trunk and get out the bean bag gun. It's the only way to be sure.

After reading across the majority of the thread and all of the first several pages, I thought I'd throw my two cents into the jar.

On the face of it, approaching cops with sharp objects in a threatening manner, after they've been called out there specifically for someone threatening customers and employees with sharp objects is what I'd call Suicide By Cop. The outcome is pretty clear to even the most dense among us ...which does tend to leave me thinking she was a little crazy by natural event or drugs. One of the two.

We also have no idea what the layout was. For people who suggest warning shots or one who actually said firing into the ground would be a good idea...every Costco I've been into has been a warehouse type, open store with concrete floors. That limits options. Cops aren't trained to wound anyway. No trick shooting. If it's time to shoot, it's time to kill..and damn little in between.

We have no idea, most importantly, how close she was to displays she could have darted behind and disappeared around and how cleared ..if at all.. the store had been for customers. Were some close on the sides, trying to see what was happening? Typical behavior..and would put her seconds from grabbing someone and making a bad situation into a hostage taking nightmare.

Like Sonnny pointed out, an inquest will tell all. It was a big store after all, you just KNOW store security was watching this all in detail on store cameras. I have no doubt. I'm sure all that shows precisely what happened.

reply to post by SubTruth


It's a shame that people you;re supposed to count on to be professional in dangerous situations are too much of crybabies to man up and handle the situation like men.


If a woman comes at me with a knife, I'm going to kick her ass plain and simple, sadly police officers don't require any sort of self defense training ( or strength for that matter ).

If your job is to put your life on the line, you should think about training your body to handle and compensate for any skill differences in hand-to-hand fighting and weapon disarming. Not to resort to your " ermehgerd, i'm not a real man, and can never become one, let's unload a mag into a woman." methods.

If she has a gun different story but we have cowards who join and believe law enforcement is just some 9-5 and only wanted some form of employment. Cowards have no place protecting anyone, they only serve themselves.

reply to post by Domo1

Just the SOUND from one would make me fall down. There have been a few times at the range where someone switched over to a .357 and I almost pooed.

Don't feel bad... I remember the first time I let go of a .357 round... it was from a 6" barrel (S&W Model 66), and the fire from the barrel filled my entire frame of view. It took quite a few shots to get comfortable with it.

I would not be at all surprised if you're a better shot than the average cop. Cops are pretty notorious for being bad shots.

That statement seriously scares me. I hope you can agree that placing firearms in the hands of and entrusting enforcement of laws to the less-proficient while making it difficult to carry for the more proficient is not the best of situations.

I cannot claim exceptional accuracy anymore myself, having let my skills wither with time, but I am not a policeman and rarely even carry any more.

I'm more of a candyass than you (sounds sarcastic, not meant to be).

I doubt that... I am not a gun nut nor a macho man... I am just a redneck with a big mouth (keyboard).

I don't want to kill, and I see no use in wasting ammunition. If I shoot twice in a situation and my target doesn't at least falter, then I will immediately keep firing. It takes almost no time to make that distinction. If he does falter, then i have a split-second to decide if another round is needed. That's enough time; the mind runs at warp-speed in a threatening situation. That said, I would have no problem, as I assume you would not, unloading as many more rounds as needed if needed.

To me, the close quarter environment makes it even more vital to put the threat down quickly.

I can understand and agree with that assessment.

At the end of the day I think this is yet another tragic situation and feel for everyone involved and their families. From the information available at this point, it seems to me the Officers acted appropriately.

Tragic indeed, and I join you in your feelings toward those involved. At the end of the day, it appears that last statement is the only difference between us, and perhaps we will simply have to agree to disagree on that point. I see much that makes me think the officers may have gone overboard. But then again, I would bet good money that either of us could easily change our mind if the evidence from the scene showed it appropriate.

TheRedneck

The problem with articles and posts like these, is that there isn't enough detail to make a judgment call.

Some Questions:
Just exactly how upset what she?
When they say waving a knife, do they mean as in trying to stab or threaten to stab?
Exactly what went down when she went up to the cop with the knife?

The list of questions could go on


I know for a fact that some police have and do at times use excessive force, but I would not say that this was the case here until we know more details. If there was a high risk that this person could have killed or severely hurt someone, then I would have not hesitated a minute to shoot her if that is the only way she could be stopped (though it would have not been fatal). Especially if there are children around.


Just to many holes to fill before we jump to conclusions.

What chaps my behind, is that all of the folks on here screaming police over action, are the same ones applauding for George Zimmerman killing a teenager armed with a bag of Skittles. There are times that the asshats on this site make me want to forget the internet exists.

As a resident of Loudoun County let me say that it's a miracle that we don't have more shootings by cops. Sterling probably has the largest MS13 population on the East Coast if not in the entire country. Leesburg is a central hub for the drug trade on the East Coast. Despite these facts the police here are pretty relaxed. I have lived here my entire life and have never had a negative run in with any of the police. While this event is tragic it is hardly an indicator of a police state.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
That statement seriously scares me. I hope you can agree that placing firearms in the hands of and entrusting enforcement of laws to the less-proficient while making it difficult to carry for the more proficient is not the best of situations.

I hate to say it, but I have to agree with this, in general, the LEOs I have shot with are generally poor to fair. That's with the exception of SWAT guys.

I have seen a few that were actually alarming to be on the range with at the same time.

You'd hope that they'd all be down at the IDPA learning point-shoot and competing to see who's the better shot in pseudo-realistic training courses. But IRL, as usual you get some of the SWAT guys doing it and that's all. In fact, about half of any IDPA or IPSC group is either local SWAT or former operators (or both). You might see one or two enthusiastic cops that come back after the first bit of training, but a lot of times those are the guys trying to get into SWAT.

I guess as an avid CTer, if you were into pistol shooting and wanted to find some former operators to pump for conspiracy info, IDPA would be your golden opportunity.

reply to post by MongusePro

I quit smoking 4 days ago and this nearly broke it for me

Over the Three Day Hump? Outstanding! Hang in there. You are at critical mass right now, just looking for an excuse to light up.

The Patch (worked for me).

On topic... do we have video? No?

Figures. I don't believe any Press statement about what the Police did in front of Costco. Thats three corporate strikes against freedom of information. I know there are multiple security cameras pointed right there. Its pointless to discuss without at least seeing that video.

If they are "sequestering" it then you know it shows something they don't want you to see.

www.nbcwashington.com...


media.nbcwashington.com...*415/mhai-scott.jpg



For those interested in seeing the shooting victim.

Originally posted by BubbaJoe
What chaps my behind, is that all of the folks on here screaming police over action, are the same ones applauding for George Zimmerman killing a teenager armed with a bag of Skittles. There are times that the asshats on this site make me want to forget the internet exists.

Don'tcha reckon that is because Trayvon was a teenage thug who had Zimmerman down on the ground, pounding his head, while this woman was likely delirious and should have been more safely handled by two cops?