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UN sanctions. Economic depression. The EU would gain economic advantage over an embargoed US. Spain has an interest in its old Empire.
If you take it far enough back, anyone could claim this land, indian, mexican, animals, (going really far back) we could say in the cradle of time the first person that stepped on alaska, then went home b/c it was too cold, could claim the americas, my point is that you do not own this land, and neither does anyone else, any more than any other person, so to kick someone off in a manner that involves you claiming you were there first is flaud and dishonorly
Originally posted by Aelita
Chakotay's arguments are interesting but largely irrelevant.
International Law? Tell me what "international law" Court existed in the late 1800's? Please state your argument more succinctly for "fraudulent".
Originally spat out by Chakotay
A. The United States took sovereign Mexican lands by force of arms and fraudulant treaty-making. That makes US title and authority null and void under International Law (remember Kuwait?).
Funny ... I have never met an "illegal alien" from Canada, the Canadians I have met prefer to live in Canada.
Originally spat out by Chakotay
B. The US has biased border policies. Mexicans should enjoy the same immigration policies directed towards largely Anglo Canadians- at least.
That is because the Mexican Government understands that it's current borders are the full and legal extent of it's recognised territorial claims ... a perception you appear to have a problem with.
Originally hocked like a nasty lugey by Chakotay
C. The Mexican Government is NOT asking for its lands back.
Maybe the United States Government should treat them in the same manner that the Mexican Federal Justice system would treat them?
Originally prayed about by Chakotay... and for the largely Catholic Mexican people's support for the war on islamist terror and illegal drugs. The Mexican Government is asking for humane, fair, equal treatment for its citizens in matters of immigration.
See the first point above.
Originally hallucinated by Chakotay
The Mexican Government COULD press its case for reparations or restoration of lands in the United Nations courts, but it is showing admirable restraint in relations with Washington.
Yes Chakotay, equal treatment ... well you don't see Mexicans being kidnapped and held for ransom by Federal Authorities in the U.S. ...
Originally "flower powered" by ChakotayMexicans in America should be extended the same welcome Americans in Mexico are. That is called equal protection before the law and justice for all. We should treat our blood relatives like the family members they are.
Originally bragged about by Chakotay
D. The taxes generated for the US, States, counties and cities by Mexican labor are ... generating trillions of dollars of GDP for American business and consumers that is taxed all the way.
Originally posted by Chuck Stevenson
Originally hallucinated by Chakotay
Originally "flower powered" by Chakotay
Originally bragged about by Chakotay
Quite rude, Chuck. I stand by my figures. And I have not yet pointed out that the backbone of the US Military right now is Hispanic, including many Mexican nationals serving as officers and line. We are one people. Have a margarita on me.
Originally posted by Aelita
Since I haven't heard from Chakotay on this subject, let me ask again:
How different is the treatment of Mexican immigrants
compared to the treatment of the following immigrants:
a) Pushtu
b) Somali
c) Ukranian
d) Norwegian
e) Bengali
f) Russian
Please provide as much detail as you can.
Originally posted by Chakotay
when I go to Mexico I am welcomed and treated like an equal, not detained and harrassed.
U.S. Department of State
Mexico
... there is often no effective law enforcement or police protection.
... Some segments of the local population resent the presence of foreigners and openly express their hostility.
... Standards of security ... has contributed to deaths of U.S. citizens ...
... Crime in Mexico continues at high levels, and it is often violent ...
... Armed street crime is a serious problem in all of the major cities ...
... Kidnapping, including the kidnapping of non-Mexicans, continues at alarming rates....
... Criminal assaults occur on highways throughout Mexico ...
Originally posted by Chakotay
Aelita, you seem like a reasonable person.
Now I am sure you know that the Peoples of the Arctic Circle are all Relatives: there are tipis among the Saami, hand drums among the Siberians and so on. There are precolumbian natives of African heritage in the Americas and the Islamists have been pontificating about Allahbama while Hindus and Chinese claim ancient voyages to America and linguists ponder Sumerian word-roots in Native languages.
When I cross the Canadian border, it is far friendlier and easier than when I cross the Southern Border into the States. This is a fact. There are no armed search immigration checkpoints in interior Washington State like there are in Texas. When you ride the Greyhound in Oregon you are not detained and searched several times by armed Immigration officers, as you are in Texas.
Beyond that, Native Americans including Mexicans are the Aboriginal Inhabitants of the United States. They have, in the words of Nelson Mandela of South Africa, a right to the land and its governance. You know this is true.
Canada has recognized this right; they gave back a huge chunk of the Northwest Territories to Native government, a fact hardly spoken of in the American press.
People from other continents like to come here. That is fine. But we live here. We always have.
Russia relinquished those parts of its Empire that it held illegitimately. My Relatives in Semipalatinsk now enjoy freedom that my Relatives in Nevada do not.
Originally posted by Gazrok
About the only changes I'd support are:
1. The erection of a wall between the US and Mexico, with controlled access gates.
2. A land-mined "no man's land" before the wall, closed off with a fence to prevent accidental straying into it.
3. Sensors such as those used at Area 51, but to track those trying to sneak across.
4. Machine gun towers along the wall, with spotlights, night vision, etc.
5. The requirement that at least one parent be an American citizen, before automatically extending the right to the child. This "instant American" loophole has been exploited for FAR too long. If two non-Americans have a child here, they should have to get on the road to citizenship before the child is declared a citizen.
That'd pretty much do it.
[edit on 11-11-2004 by Gazrok]
Originally posted by Aelita
Originally posted by Chakotay
Aelita, you seem like a reasonable person.
Chakotay, I feel you'll have to downgrade me on the reason scale after you read this
While your argument MAY seem sound it is not, the ability to compete economically is not based on the sheer numbers of producing population, it is based on the Effective output of the population. A small, well educated and efficient population will always outperform a large uneducated inefficient population (within statistical limits).
Originally posted by mwm1331
We need a bigger population to be able to compete economically with, Primarily, the EU.
By converting the large tracts of lands to Farmland you 1) are replacing currently wild ecological zones with developed zones, and 2) are placing quite a few (dare I say "native") people out of work. You would also encounter a great deal of opposition from the Big Oil interests.
Originally posted by mwm1331
A merger with mexico would accomplish many objectives.
1) It would open up vast tracks of land that could quickly be converted into modern farms allowing the US to become more self suffecient in terms of food production. In addition the surplusses of grains and soy could be funneled into ethanol, and biodiesel helping us to reduce our dependancy on foreign oil.
These oil fields are already being efficiently exploited, the main problem with Mexican Oil is that it is extremely Sulfur rich which substantially increases the cost of refining.
Originally posted by mwm1331
2) Mexico and south america as a whole have moderately large oil and gas fields which could be more effeciently exploited.
I think you meant "The development of new modern infrastructure ..." would require a great deal of Tax monies as well.
Originally posted by mwm1331
3) The lack of infrastructure would bring in huge revenues for heavy industry which could be supported and funded by private industy for profit, reducing the governmental investments needed. Roads, power stations, Phone and internet lines cable and wireless providers etc.
The last part I just couldn't understand your logic, but in reality, there would be a huge number of New citizens who would rely heavily on the Social Support system until they could be educated, employed and become self supporting. The 'new' U.S. would then have a little problem with Illegal Immigrants from farther south filling all the jobs the Illegal mexican immigrants previously filled.
Originally posted by mwm1331
4)As all mexican citizens would become US citzens it wold end all cases of mexican illegals being paid under the table which would increase the tax revenues offsetting the additional costs of social servies. While at the same time opening up far more lowend workers.
Already open.
Originally posted by mwm1331
5) t would open up mexican mineral deposits to American exploitation.
That's supposition, and it's all a nice fairy tale but you forgot to discuss the inevitable Cultural Clash that would result as well.
Originally posted by mwm1331
6) The vast amounts of mexicans lving at or below the poverty line would naturally gravitate torwards the armed forces ...