Chakotay,

To avoid further confusion (or enhance confusion)
Here is an American (and Texan) Liberal's take on the matter:

From what I can read, it is not racist nor bigoted. Those who go through legal channels will be treated as one of *our* own. Those who do not are criminals. The day Mexico demands the return of it's land, it will get what it deserves. nothing. Actually probably much to your surprise there is a large number of Americans born here on this side who are descendents of Native Americans as well, if not Native Americans themselves. Work no one else wants???? The U.S. has an immense unemployment problem as is. If wages were to be legal in the first place for those jobs, then you'd see a lot more Americans working and a lot of Mexicans leaving to return to Mexico. Additionally, not all food being produced in the U.S. is from mexican hands, legal or not. Much of it is produced in other places, by American hands or other nations as well.

I really like to idea of returning to an Ellis island ideal.
We also need to extend the protection of our borders through Military extension and presense. All illegals should be questioned about status, if they refuse to identify themselves or cooperate, then shoot on sight, unless they are on their way to the office for proper forms.
It's not about bigotry, it's about protecting *our* beloved country!
God(s) Bless the U.S.A.

[edit on 6-11-2004 by Crysstaafur]

Originally posted by Crysstaafur
Actually probably much to your surprise there is a large number of Americans born here on this side who are descendents of Native Americans as well, if not Native Americans themselves.

No surprise, neighbor. That's my whole point. We cannot do injustice to our relatives. Nice to hear from a fellow Texan.

[edit on 6-11-2004 by Chakotay]

First we are all minorities in this country.

Second is a reason why these people risk everything they have to come across the border.

Yes US policies have a lot to do with that.

Yes these people is a burden to our society and our tax payer money.

Yes I have seen how the area where this people move or settle has turn into dumpsters, no I am not putting them down is very good hard-working immigrants in this country, but are also the few that come to leach our economy and take over areas and making residents moved out due to their way of life, these areas become degraded and the real state value goes down.

Yes US needs to do something about it but it will not, and that is reality.

How about all countries open their borders and do away with borders and visas and work permits and everybody can just move to wherever they want?

Maybe Mexico should open its borders totally to all central and south american nations and give them immediate work permits on arrival?

In the end nations exist to offer their citizens the best social contract. I believe that all would be permanent residents should go through the same process and I support the Ellis Island concept.

[edit on 6-11-2004 by Mynaeris]

Even the Island were I am from has become a portal to the US from the islands around in the caribbean, yes the criminal rate is high back home because they are illegal and hard to track.

Originally posted by Mynaeris
In the end nations exist to offer their citizens the best social contact. I believe that all people should go through the same process and I support the Ellis Island concept.

I agree, these people get the plusses (sp?) of their nation, and to ask for free (short of sales tax, and mabey property tax) advantages from our country is not fair to any US Taxpayer.

We need immigrant workers, and we should let them in, but on a limited, rated, monitered scale. I Support an incomming documentation center, such as ellis island

Originally posted by Mynaeris
Maybe Mexico should open its borders totally to all central and south american nations and give them immediate work permits on arrival?
[edit on 6-11-2004 by Mynaeris]

IF what you are saying is what Mexico is really going after, IF Mexico is persuing the ability to unite the Americas as a whole, IF Mexico is trying to unite everyone as a giant brotherhood, as was said, why don't they open there boarders, and I answer:

Every country (more or less) looks out for its own intrests, the EU has a special case where it does have limited free boarders and currency, but in the EU no two neighboring countries are drasticly affected, the EU is made up of Mostly 1st world nations (with a few 2nd world like poland) but more or less equaly developed nations. Looking at the Americas we have a super power (the US), Canada( 1st world), then a large list of 3rd world nations with IDEALS and SOCIAL VARIATIONS that infringe on out LAWS, and what we as a people feel as RIGHT and SAFE.

We Cannot open all the America borders because what we feel as commonly right, is not the same as everywhere else. I lived in So. CA, Texas, AZ, and NM, and have visited mexico many times as well as Costa Rica (not just San Jose), and the variation in what is acepted there Vs. here, as well as the repercussions in these variences is astounding. (example: people die in accidents in Mexico, b/c police will not allow a fellon to recieve medical treatement till the legal process is under way, accidents in mexico, w/o insurance ar fellonys)

EU does have some social and legal variences, but they are all developed countries with similar modern economies, similar social structures, and similar law based statements. That is why we cannot unite the americas w/ full 'brotherhood' and open boarders, we haven't enough compatibility.

[edit on 6/11/2004 by dusty1031]

[edit on 6/11/2004 by dusty1031]

Visit Cancun, try a Quesadilla with Guacamole, have a Corona and maybe you'll get lucky and marry a pretty Senorita.

I have a feeling that my husband and 4 children would have a tizzy fit if I went to Cancun and married a pretty senorita. Considering that I was one of the many Californians that voted against gay marriage in this state YEARS ago I think it would be pretty hypocritical of me to marry another woman ... even if it was in Cancun!

Jemison

My bad, Jemison! My sexism notwithstanding, Cancun is beautiful- my Aunt married a Mexican millionaire there, and he was not one bit prejudiced that she was a working class American. My only excuse for assuming you were a guy is that I am one old Indian.

I want to add one postscript. There is an ancient Native American philosophy that embraces newcomers. They bring interesting and useful new ideas and ideals, a variety of colors and flavors to life. They can be a great blessing to us, and therefore we embrace visitors. We often adopt them, because Indian is a way of life and not a single race. E Pluribus Unum came to the Founding Fathers by way of our Peoples. It is the sincere hope of the Native people that the newcomers also embrace us.

[edit on 6-11-2004 by Chakotay]

Hey, don't bring race, Language, or religion into this, none ofthose were stated, and they shouldn't be a problem. The US already deals w/ those issues, and I'm sure could continue to deal with them. This does not change though that the US believes things such as DRUGS, and GUNS are bad, and where do a majority of them (drugs and illeagal guns to the US) come from...Mexico, and other south american countries. What is the most stariotyped drug country in the world....Columbia. Though many countries oppose things like this, important, They do little or nothing to stop itOpening our boarders would alow a flood of potential for anyone looking to make quite a rich living to walk right in w/ their case-fulls and sell it right out. The EU has similar agentcies that each control their own nations, the americas do not have even remotely similar agencies.

True some countries in the EU do not have quite equal security agencies, but they average eachother, but the scale of difference that would occure with the unity of the America would be rediculous, and I for one feel we should not have our security jepordised because some other nation wants to mooch off our industry.

I feel sorry for the poor mexican workers, and I think reform does need to occure, we do need them, but we need to regulate them. As was said earlier IF we had open boarders there would be 2 floods, 1)a flood of workers that would increase suply of workers, causing competition, and driving their working wages down. 2) with this same massive wave people (under the current system) would collect our tax money via gov programs, and I feel WE DO NOT NEED TO MAKE UP FOR THE FAULTIENESS OF OTHER GOVERNMENTS

Your idea is nice, but is way too implausable, it's nice to immagine, as John Lennin said, but history has shown, it just doesn't work out this way.

Originally posted by dusty1031
This does not change though that the US believes things such as DRUGS, and GUNS are bad

I agree Dusty, and so does the Mexican government. President Fox is expending billions of dollars on internal security, and Mexican law forbids illegal drugs and firearms. Seizures of contraband are a priority of the Mexican People, and the persons who perpetrate such crimes against public safety are a micro-minority. They are considered to be enemies of the state, exactly the same as in the United States.

[edit on 6-11-2004 by Chakotay]
I have been thinking about it, and I want to thank Jemison for starting this thread, and to thank Dusty and the others for contributing. It is good to have provocative topics that get us to vent our true concerns and feelings so that we can all reason together. I applaud ATS and all of you for free thought and freedom of expression. I consider you all to be my friends, and I am glad you all are here.

[edit on 6-11-2004 by Chakotay]

great, I'm glad you and they agree, BUT that does not change the fact that it still happens, mabey once things like this are resolved, relations will improve, and boarders will improve. That refrence was against your United Americas statement, but yes it applies to mexico too, and since that is what the thread is about, I suppose that is what we should get back too

I am for controlling the Mexican american boarder, open, but controled. A controlled boarder will protect the rights of the workers for fair wages (by both providing the ability to seek the farmers that hire immigrants and audit them and by controlling labor competition), and will control who should and who shouldn't be here (that is to say criminals), And a controled boarder will make sure that even though we are paying some type of gov aid to them, they are paying into it too.

Originally posted by Chakotay
... Look up the history of the Central American Republics. It is all Mexico, the whole enchilada, from Newfoundland to the Panama Canal.

What have you been smoking Chakotay?

'Mexico' was created by the Spaniards as they created their Territories thoughout Central and South America. Before the arrival of Europeans most of the Americas were comprised of very small 'Empires' that exercised almost no control outside their native territory. It has already been proven and admitted that the fabled land of 'Aztlan' was created by a Professor at CSU Northridge when he helped to found the organization known as M.E.C.H.A. Besides, the Aztecs would have never traveld farther north than San Diego, because as I see every day during the winter, Norte est muey frio!!!!!!

Oh yeah ... then every single tribe between SAN and NewFoundLand would have handed the Aztecs their walking papers.

Originally posted by Chuck Stevenson
, Norte est muey frio!!!!!!

Oh yeah ... then every single tribe between SAN and NewFoundLand would have handed the Aztecs their walking papers.

Hey tu espanol necesita mas ayuda, your spanish need help

By the way lets no forget that the spanish used to have most of the lands in the southwest.

Before the colonies moved inland.

If the U.S. can find a way to track down all those that snuck across the boarder, do some sort of background check on them and be sure that they are here purely to live the American dream, great. If people want to come here, work hard, and prosper that is fantastic as long as they go through the proper channels.

I am opposed to pregnant women jumping the border and giving birth in our hospitals so that their children are legal. We end up paying more than the hospital bill, and frankly, California just can't afford it.

Our first priority needs to be dealing with the illegal immigrants that are here NOW. Once we do that we can talk to Mexican officials and find a better way to deal with immigration. The system we have now is not working and is out of control.

It's not a matter of being racist. It's a matter of protecting BOTH parties ... American tax-payers AND illigal immigrants.

Jemison

I live in the East Bay town of San Pablo. It is currently about 95% Mexican immigrants. I also work with several immigrant Mexicans at an El Sobrante restaurant. Of the many immigrant Mexicans I've worked with in the last seven years, only one has been documented. The others are illegals who work "under the table"and therefore do not pay income tax. I can tell you from my experience, these people feel exploited and rightly so. They complain about America, while praising their homeland. I agree that we should help Mexico solve their problems so the homesick can return to their country and unemployed Americans can reclaim the job market. Only then can our standard of living be elevated to its former status.

[edit on 11/7/2004 by dollmonster]

they should go through the correct lines and become legal and they pay an income tax, like the rest of us do. American people bash on america all the time. WHY SHOULD THEY HAVE SPECIAL TREATMENT, WHY DO THEY GET TO KEEP THEIR INCOME TAX AND WE DON'T!

They have no right to be here illeagaly and freeload off our economy, the ones here leagaly followed the correct path and pay their taxes just like a worker in any nation does.

OH and as long as we are proclaiming where we live, I live in San Diego, about 30 min from the border, yes there are alot of immigrants, and most of them are very nice, and find peaceful jobs that aren't in conflict with most other people, BUT they still should pay some kind of Taxes if they come here to work.

If they pay their taxes, there is no reason why we would need to keep them out as strictly as we do now, if anything it would help us.

Originally posted by Chuck Stevenson'Mexico' was created by the Spaniards as they created their Territories thoughout Central and South America. (snip) Oh yeah ... then every single tribe between SAN and NewFoundLand would have handed the Aztecs their walking papers.

Sorry, Charlie. The Empire of the Americas is far older than that. We are the survivors. I have spent a lifetime researching this, and recent research is revealing an indiginous Panamerican Empire predating the Spaniards and Aztecs. Our Tribes have never forgotten our ancient origins. The Cherokees in particular have Treaties negotiated with the modern representatives (19th Century) of the Mexican Empire, and their Spanish allies. We maintain official government -to-government ties with the sitting Mexican Government. The Mohicans of the Far North- popularized in The Last of the Mohicans- are not extinct, and this name is spelled correctly as Mexican(pronunciation: muh-hi-can). We love the snow, brother. Everywhere people grow corn is Mexico. We are the People of the Corn. Divisions have appeared among our People over time, but give any American Indian the choice between doggery among the Americans or the opportunity to be a free and equal member of the Mexican Republic and you might be surprised which one we choose. As to what I smoke, I smoke tobacco.

The whole Cherokee Nation tried to move to "Mexico" in the 19th Century under our Treaties with Mexico and Spain. Mexico welcomed us but the US Army would not allow us to go. Sequoia made it down, and a few others, but we wound up in the original ethnic cleansing camp of Oklahoma. The people of Chief Bowl who made it to Texas under the Cherokee Sam Houston the Raven were almost wiped out by the Americans. By the way, Hitler requisitioned the American Army historical documents on Indian Removal when planning the SS Death Camps. You people saved us all from the Nazis. My uncle was put in Dachau after being captured in the Battle of the Bulge by the Nazis- for being Cherokee- during WWII. What do you think ethnic cleansers will do when their records check shows your third Grandma was Mohawk or whatever? That's why we have to be tolerant of diversity: there's plenty of blonde, African American, and brunette "Indians" in America. We are one people, Americans. Corn eaters. Beer drinkers. Lets party.

[edit on 7-11-2004 by Chakotay]

Dusty wrote, "they should go through the correct lines and become legal and they pay an income tax, like the rest of us do". Now here's something interesting to research. When I work in Mexico, how do Mexico and America tax me? Since most Americans who work in Mexico- like me- are high income earners (executives and such) there might be quite an American resistance to tax reform that could be reciprocated.

[edit on 7-11-2004 by Chakotay]