Brahman, Maya, Truth and the illusion of Free will, page 5

Visitor2012

posted on Jun, 3 2013 @ 12:49 PM

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reply to post by preludefanguy

Honestly, what is the true projection, is our body. When we are 'awake' and moving about in our reality, awareness is projecting into a very finite point. Awareness is having an IBE, or in body experience

That is a great perspective. Viewing the awareness as an IBE. It certainly seems so. I also feel that if you have a body at all, it's a pretty good chance you are experiencing a projection of yourself.

I say this because in my dreams my body feels absolutely real. I have 5 senses in my dream as well, and the ability to think. But yet they were not enough to see through the illusion, quite obviously. Otherwise you would not be able to have dreams if it wasn't 100% sealed tight. So my feeling is, why couldn't the same thing apply to our own waking reality. After all, I have 5 senses and the ability to think. I find myself, in the same situation as my dreams. Likewise, it feels as though i have a real body and everything else being external to me.

It would be foolish to say that I know reality based on what my 5 senses and my mind is telling me. Having been convinced last night, that they can't even overcome the illusion of a silly dream.

So I believe that if projection is happening, meaning Form, Mind, Body and 5 senses, your real self will always be that from which it all originates.

edit on 3-6-2013 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)

bb23108

posted on Jun, 3 2013 @ 04:41 PM

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reply to post by Visitor2012

Originally posted by Visitor2012
Definitely a good night's sleep! But let me ask you this. You said that you would tell your dreamt-self to "fall deeper into the condition of dreamless bliss where no subject-object experience is stimulated by arising dream objects"

What exactly would he need to do, to accomplish that? You told him what he needs to do, but how should he do it?

To remind me of this, s/he would simply have to do the same himself - release all separative subject-object orientation to arising conditions, and fall into the objectless bliss of the heart - i.e., deep sleep.

Once there are no objects or others stimulating the illusory separation of observer vs. observed, there is only the bliss of awareness itself. Of course, there is no separation in reality between observer and observed, but in the dreaming and waking states, this is easily forgotten/unnoticed.

Visitor2012

posted on Jun, 3 2013 @ 07:21 PM

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Originally posted by bb23108
reply to post by Visitor2012

Originally posted by Visitor2012
Definitely a good night's sleep! But let me ask you this. You said that you would tell your dreamt-self to "fall deeper into the condition of dreamless bliss where no subject-object experience is stimulated by arising dream objects"

What exactly would he need to do, to accomplish that? You told him what he needs to do, but how should he do it?
To remind me of this, s/he would simply have to do the same himself - release all separative subject-object orientation to arising conditions, and fall into the objectless bliss of the heart - i.e., deep sleep.

Once there are no objects or others stimulating the illusory separation of observer vs. observed, there is only the bliss of awareness itself. Of course, there is no separation in reality between observer and observed, but in the dreaming and waking states, this is easily forgotten/unnoticed.

Now how would you suggest he go about doing It? You said what he needs to do, but specifically what would that entail?

The reason I ask is because even in our waking reality, when people say similar things, it ends up going no further than the mind and no transcendence actually happens.

edit on 3-6-2013 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)

bb23108

posted on Jun, 3 2013 @ 08:00 PM

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Originally posted by Visitor2012
Now how would you suggest he go about doing It? You said what he needs to do, but specifically what would that entail?

The reason I ask is because even in our waking reality, when people say similar things, it ends up going no further than the mind and no transcendence actually happens.

Yes, but the dream world is apparently far more fluid, and thus more readily changeable.

In other words, releasing the observer function into consciousness itself is seemingly more straightforward and direct when there is no physicality. Plus, as you already defined, this is a messenger sent by me, so his reminding me in my dream to let go of all objects and others is simply a reminder of what I already understand and practice. It is like your messenger example telling you to wake up - which I assume is a means for you to be reminded to enter the lucid dream state (something you already have done before).

edit on 6/3/2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)

Visitor2012

posted on Jun, 3 2013 @ 09:50 PM

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Originally posted by bb23108

Originally posted by Visitor2012
Now how would you suggest he go about doing It? You said what he needs to do, but specifically what would that entail?

The reason I ask is because even in our waking reality, when people say similar things, it ends up going no further than the mind and no transcendence actually happens.
Yes, but the dream world is apparently far more fluid, and thus more readily changeable.

In other words, releasing the observer function into consciousness itself is seemingly more straightforward and direct when there is no physicality. Plus, as you already defined, this is a messenger sent by me, so his reminding me in my dream to let go of all objects and others is simply a reminder of what I already understand and practice. It is like your messenger example telling you to wake up - which I assume is a means for you to be reminded to enter the lucid dream state (something you already have done before).

edit on 6/3/2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)

I have to disagree with the physicality, dreams have complete physicality at least from the illusory self's point of view. And the fluidity you speak of, is completely unnoticeable from the illusory self's point of view. You would also be unaware that the messenger was sent by your higher self. So, for all intents and purposes, it would be just like someone walking up to you in real life. (I use that term very lightly)

But nevertheless, how does one release the observer function into consciousness itself ? How does that translate to action in body and mind? (In the dream)

So you find yourself in a dream, walking down the street. And this stranger walks up to you and reminds you of yourself and says the exact words you prescribed, now how does he follow your instructions to realize the pure witness?

Thank you for your input in this thread. Extremely fascinating.

edit on 3-6-2013 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)

vethumanbeing

posted on Jun, 3 2013 @ 10:58 PM

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Originally posted by Visitor2012
Originally posted by Rosinitiate
reply to post by vethumanbeing

vethumanbeing[/]
Life. I act usually in an outsmarting myself mode (never works as I am the scriptwriter and the rewrites are instantaneous).

Visitor2012
Absolutely superb! It requires a great deal of clarity to make that statement. Many famous philosophers have said the very same thing, in their own ways.

Cannot excape the truism (you must learn whether you like it or not) hopefully there is a humor element involved in giant strides regarding the SORRY SOUL we encompasse or drag along for the ride bald headed always.
edit on 3-6-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

bb23108

posted on Jun, 4 2013 @ 12:22 PM
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reply to post by Visitor2012

Originally posted by Visitor2012
I have to disagree with the physicality, dreams have complete physicality at least from the illusory self's point of view. And the fluidity you speak of, is completely unnoticeable from the illusory self's point of view. You would also be unaware that the messenger was sent by your higher self. So, for all intents and purposes, it would be just like someone walking up to you in real life. (I use that term very lightly)

In my experience, dreams are much more fluid, or plastic-like, in the sense that they are readily molded into shapes, colors, textures, etc., by whatever point-of-view the dreamer is assuming. This includes the body-mind of the dreamer and of others too.

Of course, the same thing can be observed in the waking state, but generally it seems much "denser" in the waking state, and less subject to very fast shifts and changes.

Originally posted by Visitor2012
But nevertheless, how does one release the observer function into consciousness itself ? How does that translate to action in body and mind? (In the dream)

Such release does not translate into action in the body-mind of the dreamer - except that the body-mind vanishes in consciousness itself (deep sleep), the domain of awareness beyond all objects.

The "how-to" mainly involves deeper and deeper recognition that we are simply awareness, always - generally beginning with practicing consciously, and more and more consistently, in daily waking life.

Originally posted by Visitor2012
So you find yourself in a dream, walking down the street. And this stranger walks up to you and reminds you of yourself and says the exact words you prescribed, now how does he follow your instructions to realize the pure witness?

How does "he" follow these instructions? I have been assuming he is the messenger to remind me of these instructions, so it makes no difference what he does. Once I fall into deep, object-less, and other-less sleep, the dreamscape disappears just like it does when entering the waking state each morning.

Originally posted by Visitor2012
Thank you for your input in this thread. Extremely fascinating.

Thank you too - this whole thread is very interesting.

edit on 6/4/2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)

bb23108

posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 08:36 AM
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I think the OP may have slipped into a very deep sleep!

edit on 6/7/2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)

Visitor2012

posted on Jun, 7 2013 @ 01:52 PM
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reply to post by bb23108

The "how-to" mainly involves deeper and deeper recognition that we are simply awareness, always - generally beginning with practicing consciously, and more and more consistently, in daily waking life.

This is the heart of the matter. Likewise, when people suggest similar things to seekers of Truth, the practice doesn't seem to go beyond anything but a mind game. In other words, to go into " deeper recognition", and 'fall into bliss or pure awareness", a person will invariably end up in the realm of his own mind, projections and imaginations. Which are all temporary states of mind. Making no real progress towards waking up. In the dream, the situation still applies, which is, how does one make the objective and subjective disappear into bliss? How does one actually do all these marvelous suggestions without going into deeper sleep within their minds?

The messenger, is you. So being yourself, what would you say to the dreamt-self, to get it to understand and experience reality as Brahman. While at the same time, get it to understand that it already IS Brahman ( which is you asleep in your bed).

If I were to take a shot at it, I feel it would be impossible to say anything to the dreamt-self to get it to wake up. With the exception of killing the illusory self, I wouldn't know what else to say to it.

I would probably try to put him at ease, if a nightmare is happening. But nothing I would say, could make the person experience the reality of it as the Brahman. So saying things like "you are everything" or "you are one, and everything else is illusion" would be useless to this person who is 100% involved in the illusion itself.

I would probably give him wisdom on how to live life in the dream. How to remain at ease, and keep your cool. How not to worry about tomorrow or yesterday. I would teach it methods of meditation so that its worried and ever-questioning mind could be put at ease. At least he would be able to have a pleasurable experience in the dream. Which could change the nightmare into a wonderful dream. That would be his miracle. A nightmare that would turn into a dream. He wouldn't have to pretend to Love evil, he wouldn't have to embrace darkness in a desperate attempt to find light. It could be his heaven on Earth.

But to wake him up? No chance. Only Brahman can open his own eyes.

edit on 7-6-2013 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)

preludefanguy

posted on Jun, 9 2013 @ 04:16 AM
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reply to post by Visitor2012

'deeper recognition' | recognition of what ?

'fall into bliss or pure awareness' | which one is it, bliss or pure awareness ? also how does one define pure awareness ?

Wake who up ?

You cannot awaken the 'dreamer/ego' you can only have HIM go to sleep, or, to go the way of form, which is death

how can one awaken the dreamer when the only job of the dreamer is to be constructed to dream in the first place ?

When you wake up, the dreamer goes to sleep

It is not deeper recognition, just as infinity spans outwards, so does it inwards, what you want to do, is uncover all forms, to the point of 0, not the positive, not the negative, but the nothingness

the absolute point of 0 is nothingness in the terms as it is not defined as being nothing, but rather it is infinite potentiality

bliss is just a form of awareness, a form which awareness adapts itself, and stops being infinite potentiality and snaps into being one finite point of experience

as for pure awareness, how can one put any sort of description on infinite potentiality ? to put a description on it is to define it and to give it from, to collapse it from its infinite potentiality into a finite point that we can pick up and inspect

when the word awareness passes through your mind, it thinks of the words and definitions which are attached to the word, the symbols it brings up and the meanings those symbols create in your consciousness, to think about it in itself is to point at it and create words to define it, always trying to pin down the infinite into a working theory or idea, this is what mind always tries to do, to pin down something so it can inspect it, for that is what mind itself is, mind of self, of ego, of dreamer

pure infinite potentiality has no definition, and cannot be experienced in the sense that one can bring it back into meaning by mans simple way of communication through language and symbolism

it can only be 'experienced' in the moments where everything that defines you and your reality falls away, and you know nothing, there is nothing to know, nothing to experience, everything is lost, but everything is gained, you do not identify with the one, there is nothing to identify with, and there are no boundaries

When you come back to finite consciousness and the 5 aggregates grip your awareness once again, we are but a fish in the sea, and what one can do, and what one does, is no longer play the game of attachment, one sees through the illusion of everything including self, and as one must exist in this form as having this IBE, one should choose to cultivate the moment and perpetuate bliss for oneself and all (as there is no difference) and choose to limit the suffering one experiences in form to a minimum

bb23108

posted on Jun, 9 2013 @ 04:32 PM
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reply to post by Visitor2012

Yes, I agree with much of what you say here.

There is no bootstrapping oneself into waking up regardless of the method(s) and/or approaches - ultimately, full awakening in and as Truth is Self Revealed by the Grace of Reality Itself. However, this does not mean that egoically-courteractive practices and real yogic transformation of the body-mind are unnecessary - but this is another subject for perhaps another day.

To awaken to Reality Itself requires Reality to reveal Itself. At best one can tell someone this, and perhaps direct them to an Enlightened Source who is fully awakened to Reality or Consciousness Itself. Anything short of this is typically just more Maya - the blind leading the blind.

edit on 6/9/2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)

Visitor2012

posted on Jun, 13 2013 @ 09:55 AM
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Originally posted by bb23108
reply to post by Visitor2012

Yes, I agree with much of what you say here.

There is no bootstrapping oneself into waking up regardless of the method(s) and/or approaches - ultimately, full awakening in and as Truth is Self Revealed by the Grace of Reality Itself. However, this does not mean that egoically-courteractive practices and real yogic transformation of the body-mind are unnecessary - but this is another subject for perhaps another day.

To awaken to Reality Itself requires Reality to reveal Itself. At best one can tell someone this, and perhaps direct them to an Enlightened Source who is fully awakened to Reality or Consciousness Itself. Anything short of this is typically just more Maya - the blind leading the blind.

edit on 6/9/2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)

You hit the nail on the head. I agree 100%. Definitely things we can do to transform the body/mind to make the dreaming experience more pleasant, and fulfilling.