Brahman, Maya, Truth and the illusion of Free will

Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by Visitor2012

 

there is no such thing as Maya. The universe and everything in it is real. There is no connection between maya and the " real world" .. no proof or examples you can provide either.

You raise a good point. In terms of our dreams. If you were able to visit yourself in a dream, how could you prove the truth that it isn't real? And how could the dreamt-self prove the belief that it is?

Since you are telling us what is and isn't, I would like to hear your opinion on how one would go about this. But in the context of our Dreams.

reply to post by Visitor2012


You are in a dark room in India. You make out what seems to be a venomous snake in the corner. You become frightened and start to panic. When the light goes on , you see that what you thought was a snake is a harmless rope. - Maya.

You are in a dark room in India. You make out what seems to be a venomous snake in the corner. You become frightened and start to panic. When the light goes on , you see that what you thought was a snake was a snake.

Maya is neither a reality in the "dream world" as it is in the real world.

Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by Visitor2012

 

You are in a dark room in India. You make out what seems to be a venomous snake in the corner. You become frightened and start to panic. When the light goes on , you see that what you thought was a snake is a harmless rope. - Maya.

You are in a dark room in India. You make out what seems to be a venomous snake in the corner. You become frightened and start to panic. When the light goes on , you see that what you thought was a snake was a snake.

Maya is neither a reality in the "dream world" as it is in the real world.

Let's put aside drawing comparisons between dreams and ultimate realty for the moment. This thread is about applying the cosmology to dreams.

In our Dreams, when we awaken in a dark room, regardless as to wether its a rope or snake, we all know its an illusion.

reply to post by Visitor2012


We know are dreams are an illusion when we are dreaming?

Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by Visitor2012

 

We know are dreams are an illusion when we are dreaming?

I'm not sure i understand your question.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

I am is the one but it is not a person, not a who.

edit on 1-6-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

So what would you identify your self as?

If I was to tell you what I have discovered myself to be it would be nothing - I am nothing. I am nothing seeing something (the present image - which is also not a thing) - together it makes apparent existence. I am/this is..... nothing happening.
I am (this is) emptiness forming.
Non existence and appearing existence is all there will ever be - it is what this consists of. This will always be but this will always appear different.

edit on 1-6-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

I believe I am no thing as well. The dreamer can never be found within the dream, but is only the watcher and creator of it.

Everything I see here is seen as only I can see it. There are an infinite number of ways an object can be seen, but I only see it one way- my way. So I am the creator of what I see.

But i am what can be identified in an infinite number of ways too. So, in honesty, theres really no thing I can properly identify my self as, so I am no thing, but I am.

What is seen is identified. I am not seen.

Originally posted by WebOfWonder

Originally posted by Visitor2012
reply to post by Kody27

 

Free will is such an interesting subject. I found it to be fascinating when applying the concept to our dreams. Because, in the Dream world, it is virtually impossible to separate the character in the dream..from yourself. In addition, when looking at our dreams we see it from both sides. On one side, the wakened state, we see that we were the driving force of the entire dream, the doer of both the character and the environment. On the other side, the sleep state, we can remember feeling as though we were operating on our own free will. As separate and independent beings in an external world. In your dreams, it never feels as though you have a puppet master controlling your every movement.

That's when the incredibly deceptive illusion of free will is revealed. At least in relation to our Dreams. That if there is any free will at all, operating in our dreams, that power does not reside in the illusory self. It can only be exercised by the Real self. The True self, Meaning that which is the TOTALITY of the entire dream...the dreamer.

edit on 31-5-2013 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)

In a dream do you really have free will? Even when experiencing a "lucid" dream?

Were you really the driver of both the "character"/observer and the environment? Did you really create them? Were you aware you created them or have you concluded you created them?

If we haven't proof that free-will exists when awake, how can we prove it exists when experiencing a dream?

I posted a few replies on free-will on another thread, if anyone is interested (I won't repeat it here)...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Our mind's can dream any dream it wishes. And it is absolutely free To do so, without restriction. From that perspective, free will is indeed operating, in the guise of the dream itself. The dream, in its totality,being the expression of that freedom. But can the character, who is an illusion in the dream, act separately from this higher will?

Though we may not consciously be able to choose the content of our dreams, our mind is certainly free to manifest whatever it chooses. So it would seem like free will IS happening all the time. And the dream itself, being the proof of it. The character in the dream, being a microscopic part of the whole will being carried out.

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

I am is the one but it is not a person, not a who.

edit on 1-6-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

So what would you identify your self as?

If I was to tell you what I have discovered myself to be it would be nothing - I am nothing. I am nothing seeing something (the present image - which is also not a thing) - together it makes apparent existence. I am/this is..... nothing happening.
I am (this is) emptiness forming.
Non existence and appearing existence is all there will ever be - it is what this consists of. This will always be but this will always appear different.

edit on 1-6-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

I believe I am no thing as well. The dreamer can never be found within the dream, but is only the watcher and creator of it.

Everything I see here is seen as only I can see it. There are an infinite number of ways an object can be seen, but I only see it one way- my way. So I am the creator of what I see.

But i am what can be identified in an infinite number of ways too. So, in honesty, theres really no thing I can properly identify my self as, so I am no thing, but I am.

What is seen is identified. I am not seen.

If the character in the dream knew this as well, would it be enough to make you become lucid? Can it trigger lucidity. The reason I ask,is this. In regards to the Ultimate Reality, it is easy to play with concepts, beliefs and theory, but has anyone ever found enlightenment in them?

Now to avoid taking this discussion into enlightenment, let me tie this back into the main thread. Which is, how does the illusory self awaken through the use of this knowledge? In other words, if you were in a dream and you thought and felt the same way about existence as you do now. And you spoke the same words you wrote above. Would that be enough for you to trigger lucidity?

In my experience with lucidity, all that was needed from the illusory self, was a recognition. Not an intellectual recognition, but something far more subtle and instantaneous. Something completely unrelated. In other words, lucidity happened not by the intellectual climbing of the illusory self, but by a far more subtle spark of recognition. Could be the act of looking at a watch or walking down the street that can trigger it.

The process of lucidity does not seem to need the philosophical and intellectual muscle of the character being dreamed, for it to happen.

For the lucid dreamers on this board, have any of you observed this?

Originally posted by Visitor2012
Now to avoid taking this discussion into enlightenment, let me tie this back into the main thread. Which is, how does the illusory self awaken through the use of this knowledge? In other words, if you were in a dream and you thought and felt the same way about existence as you do now. And you spoke the same words you wrote above. Would that be enough for you to trigger lucidity?

I am not sure about lucidity, but I do know that my dream self seems far wiser than my waking self. Often the dream self says and thinks things which are more profound than I can articulate in waking life, and the decisions the dream self makes tend to be right on the mark.

If someone dreamed and became aware of the dream thereby giving the character a conscious would that be a conscious with another making it 2..... Or just 1

Originally posted by Visitor2012

Originally posted by smithjustinb
When the dreamer realizes it is not the dream, it can consciously create the dream. This is the epitome of the lucid dream. If you also do not say, "I am the dreamer", then how can you create? You cant have will without an identity.

So maybe it is that you do have an identity, but it is beyond the dream. So I am not the dream, I am the dreamer and the dream is just a creation of my mind. Therefore, nothing you see here you can call your self, but you know there is a you where everything you see here comes from.

It would be difficult to separate the dream from the dreamer, to see the dream as something other than the dreamer. Does your character in the dream have a will that is separate from you? Can it create independently of your creation?

edit on 1-6-2013 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)

The creation has no will. It thinks it does when it believes it is separate from the creator, and thus you have the formation of the false identity, which is the root of the perceived separation. The false identity is the belief that you are the creation- the human body. All will that comes to the false identity, the false identity wrongfully attributes to the false identity and the separation is furthered.

The dream cant BE the dreamer. The dream is only a creation of the dreamer. The dreamer is absolute, whereas, the dream is one possibility out of an infinite range of possibilities. Awareness, the root of subjectivity, is the actualizer of the infinite range for the infinite range to become the defined possibility.

Awareness, the witness, is not a thing. It is the seer and therefore the creator of things. It is the part of the infinite that cannot be collapsed into a definition, and therefore, remains infinite. In trying to identify, or collapse, your self, you distort your wholeness.

reply to post by Visitor2012

Originally posted by Visitor2012
Now, upon questioning the message and intent of this messenger. What should the messenger, sent by you and being you, say in response?

Okay, if it is a given that I am aware that the messenger was summoned by me for this specific purpose, s/he would already know that the deep sleep state is far more profound and restful than the dream state with all its objects that stimulate the separative observer function - so s/he would simply remind me to fall deeper into the condition of dreamless bliss where no subject-object experience is stimulated by arising dream objects.

It is clear to me that in the lucid dream state when I notice other beings, there is a felt sense of the "knower" or observer that is stimulated by others' appearance - and with this observer, there also tends to be a felt sense of separation associated with being a point-of-view or an individuated point of conscious awareness.

When falling deeper into this conscious awareness, there is a blissful release of all points-of-view, into and beyond the depths of attention in the heart's causal root, the place of deep blissful sleep, associated with objectless consciousness itself. A very good night's sleep, to be sure!

Originally posted by Visitor2012

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

I am is this one but it is not a person, not a who.

edit on 1-6-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

So what would you identify your self as?

If I was to tell you what I have discovered myself to be it would be nothing - I am nothing. I am nothing seeing something (the present image - which is also not a thing) - together it makes apparent existence. I am/this is..... nothing happening.
I am (this is) emptiness forming.
Non existence and appearing existence is all there will ever be - it is what this consists of. This will always be but this will always appear different.

edit on 1-6-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

I believe I am no thing as well. The dreamer can never be found within the dream, but is only the watcher and creator of it.

Everything I see here is seen as only I can see it. There are an infinite number of ways an object can be seen, but I only see it one way- my way. So I am the creator of what I see.

But i am what can be identified in an infinite number of ways too. So, in honesty, theres really no thing I can properly identify my self as, so I am no thing, but I am.

What is seen is identified. I am not seen.

If the character in the dream knew this as well, would it be enough to make you become lucid? Can it trigger lucidity. The reason I ask,is this. In regards to the Ultimate Reality, it is easy to play with concepts, beliefs and theory, but has anyone ever found enlightenment in them?

Now to avoid taking this discussion into enlightenment, let me tie this back into the main thread. Which is, how does the illusory self awaken through the use of this knowledge? In other words, if you were in a dream and you thought and felt the same way about existence as you do now. And you spoke the same words you wrote above. Would that be enough for you to trigger lucidity?

In my experience with lucidity, all that was needed from the illusory self, was a recognition. Not an intellectual recognition, but something far more subtle and instantaneous. Something completely unrelated. In other words, lucidity happened not by the intellectual climbing of the illusory self, but by a far more subtle spark of recognition. Could be the act of looking at a watch or walking down the street that can trigger it.

The process of lucidity does not seem to need the philosophical and intellectual muscle of the character being dreamed, for it to happen.

For the lucid dreamers on this board, have any of you observed this?

edit on 1-6-2013 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)

Your attempt at lucid dreaming is a little different than your attempts to find your true self. The analogy is apllicable, but the process is in reverse. For lucid dreaming, you are the superconscious reaching in to the subconscious. For enlightenment, or whatever, you are the subconscious reaching out to the superconscious. I dont really know what the difference is in approaches, as the analogy applies and seems to work both ways, but it does seem like this should be taken into consideration as something that matters to the process.

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by Visitor2012

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

I am is this one but it is not a person, not a who.

edit on 1-6-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

So what would you identify your self as?

If I was to tell you what I have discovered myself to be it would be nothing - I am nothing. I am nothing seeing something (the present image - which is also not a thing) - together it makes apparent existence. I am/this is..... nothing happening.
I am (this is) emptiness forming.
Non existence and appearing existence is all there will ever be - it is what this consists of. This will always be but this will always appear different.

edit on 1-6-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

I believe I am no thing as well. The dreamer can never be found within the dream, but is only the watcher and creator of it.

Everything I see here is seen as only I can see it. There are an infinite number of ways an object can be seen, but I only see it one way- my way. So I am the creator of what I see.

But i am what can be identified in an infinite number of ways too. So, in honesty, theres really no thing I can properly identify my self as, so I am no thing, but I am.

What is seen is identified. I am not seen.

If the character in the dream knew this as well, would it be enough to make you become lucid? Can it trigger lucidity. The reason I ask,is this. In regards to the Ultimate Reality, it is easy to play with concepts, beliefs and theory, but has anyone ever found enlightenment in them?

Now to avoid taking this discussion into enlightenment, let me tie this back into the main thread. Which is, how does the illusory self awaken through the use of this knowledge? In other words, if you were in a dream and you thought and felt the same way about existence as you do now. And you spoke the same words you wrote above. Would that be enough for you to trigger lucidity?

In my experience with lucidity, all that was needed from the illusory self, was a recognition. Not an intellectual recognition, but something far more subtle and instantaneous. Something completely unrelated. In other words, lucidity happened not by the intellectual climbing of the illusory self, but by a far more subtle spark of recognition. Could be the act of looking at a watch or walking down the street that can trigger it.

The process of lucidity does not seem to need the philosophical and intellectual muscle of the character being dreamed, for it to happen.

For the lucid dreamers on this board, have any of you observed this?

edit on 1-6-2013 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)

Your attempt at lucid dreaming is a little different than your attempts to find your true self. The analogy is apllicable, but the process is in reverse. For lucid dreaming, you are the superconscious reaching in to the subconscious. For enlightenment, or whatever, you are the subconscious reaching out to the superconscious. I dont really know what the difference is in approaches, as the analogy applies and seems to work both ways, but it does seem like this should be taken into consideration as something that matters to the process.

You could also make the comparison that the dreamt- self reaching out to you..is equivalent to you reaching out to the super conscious. When looked at from the dream point of view, you WOULD be the super conscience of the illusory self. I'm not trying to link one with the other, but there are some interesting similarities concept-wise.

Originally posted by Rosinitiate
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

I agree as far as I'm aware I'm very much mortal. Many times afraid for my life. I have so many bizarre dreams and many of them I'm acting out or in defense. The one that will always say with me until death is "The Green Apple" dream.

Im put in a situational comedy, tragedy, most often fearing or defending my life. I act usually in an outsmarting myself mode (never works as I am the scriptwriter and the rewrites are instantaneous). What was your green apple experience. There is a famous one out there experienced by Robert A. Monroe (founder of the Monroe Institutute of Applied Sciences, Virginia) an over and over again re-landing of a plane he piloted into Manhatten New York City, to make an important meeting; his sequences were at least 4; One trying to land on top of a building, another on 5th Ave, another Central Park, always failing: came back into body before crashing. The test was to realise TO NOT START THE PLANE and take off IN THE FIRST PLACE, delay the meeting a day and travel by taxi, as nothing is as important as potencially loosing your life. (THESE WERE NOT DREAMS: THEY WERE OUT OF BODY EXPERIENCES).

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

You could also make the comparison that the dreamt- self reaching out to you..is equivalent to you reaching out to the super conscious. When looked at from the dream point of view, you WOULD be the super conscience of the illusory self. I'm not trying to link one with the other, but there are some interesting similarities concept-wise.

Its a self teaching mechanism. You are speaking to your higherself, or IT IS SPEAKING TO YOU. The illusiory is the third dimension gross matter self trying to comunicate with the higher lighter forms of your OWN existance, you are multidimentional whether you like it or not.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
When the dreamer realizes it is not the dream, it can consciously create the dream. This is the epitome of the lucid dream. If you also do not say, "I am the dreamer", then how can you create? You cant have will without an identity.

So maybe it is that you do have an identity, but it is beyond the dream. So I am not the dream, I am the dreamer and the dream is just a creation of my mind. Therefore, nothing you see here you can call your self, but you know there is a you where everything you see here comes from.

You are creating it. ITS ALL YOU. You are defining yourself within an ideaform, call it a dream if you may. You are the descriptive element. YOU ARE THE CREATION ELEMENT.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

You could also make the comparison that the dreamt- self reaching out to you..is equivalent to you reaching out to the super conscious. When looked at from the dream point of view, you WOULD be the super conscience of the illusory self. I'm not trying to link one with the other, but there are some interesting similarities concept-wise.

Its a self teaching mechanism. You are speaking to your higherself, or IT IS SPEAKING TO YOU. The illusiory is the third dimension gross matter self trying to comunicate with the higher lighter forms of your OWN existance, you are multidimentional whether you like it or not.

Which raises the question. Who's talking to who? (keeping this within the context of the dream if we can) Considering that in the Dream, if you were praying to God to stop the rain from falling, you would actually be praying to yourself.

(In the dream) I've also never attempted to communicate to myself while, at the same time, being fully enchanted with the dream self. So from the perspective of the dreamed-self, it is a certainty that my 'God' isn't trying to talk to me. That would be impossible, because he IS me.

Originally posted by bb23108
reply to post by Visitor2012

 

Originally posted by Visitor2012
Now, upon questioning the message and intent of this messenger. What should the messenger, sent by you and being you, say in response?

Okay, if it is a given that I am aware that the messenger was summoned by me for this specific purpose, s/he would already know that the deep sleep state is far more profound and restful than the dream state with all its objects that stimulate the separative observer function - so s/he would simply remind me to fall deeper into the condition of dreamless bliss where no subject-object experience is stimulated by arising dream objects.

It is clear to me that in the lucid dream state when I notice other beings, there is a felt sense of the "knower" or observer that is stimulated by others' appearance - and with this observer, there also tends to be a felt sense of separation associated with being a point-of-view or an individuated point of conscious awareness.

When falling deeper into this conscious awareness, there is a blissful release of all points-of-view, into and beyond the depths of attention in the heart's causal root, the place of deep blissful sleep, associated with objectless consciousness itself. A very good night's sleep, to be sure!

edit on 6/1/2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)

Definitely a good night's sleep! But let me ask you this. You said that you would tell your dreamt-self to "fall deeper into the condition of dreamless bliss where no subject-object experience is stimulated by arising dream objects"

What exactly would he need to do, to accomplish that? You told him what he needs to do, but how should he do it?

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by Rosinitiate
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

I agree as far as I'm aware I'm very much mortal. Many times afraid for my life. I have so many bizarre dreams and many of them I'm acting out or in defense. The one that will always say with me until death is "The Green Apple" dream.

Im put in a situational comedy, tragedy, most often fearing or defending my life. I act usually in an outsmarting myself mode (never works as I am the scriptwriter and the rewrites are instantaneous). What was your green apple experience. There is a famous one out there experienced by Robert A. Monroe (founder of the Monroe Institutute of Applied Sciences, Virginia) an over and over again re-landing of a plane he piloted into Manhatten New York City, to make an important meeting; his sequences were at least 4; One trying to land on top of a building, another on 5th Ave, another Central Park, always failing: came back into body before crashing. The test was to realise TO NOT START THE PLANE and take off IN THE FIRST PLACE, delay the meeting a day and travel by taxi, as nothing is as important as potencially loosing your life. (THESE WERE NOT DREAMS: THEY WERE OUT OF BODY EXPERIENCES).

edit on 2-6-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

life. I act usually in an outsmarting myself mode (never works as I am the scriptwriter and the rewrites are instantaneous).

Absolutely superb! It requires a great deal of clarity to make that statement. Many famous philosophers have said the very same thing, in their own ways.