Brahman, Maya, Truth and the illusion of Free will

reply to post by bb23108

How does one simply and always abide as the witness - consciousness or awareness itself?

In a dream, no matter what your character is going through, you are always the witness of it. Even in your reduced dream state, it is the same ultimate you witnessing it all. How does the dreamt-self, abide in that witness. The dreamt-self is completely blind, despite the fact that it has 5 functioning senses and a mind that is limited to same (you can still think, taste,see etc) , it has no ability to see the Truth of the dream, because it's understanding of itself, it's mind, it's 5 senses and its environment is ALSO an illusion.

In my experience when I become Lucid, there's nothing the dream can do, to convince me that it is real again. I can even drop the body itself and shut down the whole dream, if and when i choose to. So abiding in the Truth of the dream, or abiding as the witness of it, no matter what madness is going on in the dream, is synonymous with being Lucid. They go hand in hand. From the moment Lucidity happens, the dream can not trick you again, even in the face of Death. In fact, it is a source of great strength. The fearless kind that allows you to embrace the experience and have adventure.

But since you, the dreamer, are doing the WHOLE thing, there is no such thing as a separate you who becomes the witness and abides in it. So the question, 'how to abide in the witness', sprouts from the illusion of the problem. You are the witness.

All will you believe you have as an individual whos will is separate from others is untrue. The dream teaches us that the one you identify with as "you" is immersed into a situation and plays a part that it believes is doing on its own, when in fact, the identity is superficial and what you think "you" are doing through "free will“ is really just a cog in a wheel that perfectly interlocks with other cogs so that they all turn together. The whole of the situation which you are subjected to is a play and you are an actor following a script, playing your role perfectly. Its not so much a mistaken identity that leads you to believe that you are independently acting through your own will as it is the existence of the identity at all.

The dreamer is never seen within the dream. The dream cant say, "I am the dreamer“. But the dreamer, when it realizes it is not the dream, becomes awake in it.

reply to post by Kody27


Free will is such an interesting subject. I found it to be fascinating when applying the concept to our dreams. Because, in the Dream world, it is virtually impossible to separate the character in the dream..from yourself. In addition, when looking at our dreams we see it from both sides. On one side, the wakened state, we see that we were the driving force of the entire dream, the doer of both the character and the environment. On the other side, the sleep state, we can remember feeling as though we were operating on our own free will. As separate and independent beings in an external world. In your dreams, it never feels as though you have a puppet master controlling your every movement.

That's when the incredibly deceptive illusion of free will is revealed. At least in relation to our Dreams. That if there is any free will at all, operating in our dreams, that power does not reside in the illusory self. It can only be exercised by the Real self. The True self, Meaning that which is the TOTALITY of the entire dream...the dreamer.

Thanks for sharing as it triggered a thought I've had for years but never think to talk about it.

So "we" are often aware we had dreamed but for the life of us we can never seem to remember it.....only sometimes to the memories come crashing through.

As stated before, while in the dream we function as its our reality and completely unaware of the lack of context in the dream. To us while dreaming, seems as real as reality.

So we all think that being awake is reality and dreams are our subconscious. Yet except for certain instances we typically don't remember what we dream. In our dreams we don't know we exist outside of the dream.

Because we don't typically remember our dreams every day doesn't it stand to reason that perhaps the reason they seem so random is because we can't remember how we got to one point in the dream to the other. Even while in a single dream we seem to jump from one point to another but isn't that just our conscious trying to rationalize something it isn't getting the whole picture on?

I say this because I had a dream that spanned 3 days. The dream just continues from one day to the next and was quite awesome. But isn't it possible relativity in our "dream" is fundamentally different then our perceived reality. So it is possible that dreams are quite possibly us in a "real" place just very different then the here an now.

And what if......The dream state is more real then our reality. And although we can't remember in this state, nor every single time we dream. But perhaps our dream self is just as baffled by this "reality" that we are of the "dream"

WHOA!

reply to post by Rosinitiate


In your dreams you are eternal. You can't really die. You understand that you are not your dream body and it is just an "object" that you are watching in the dream which you believe to be yourself.

What's interesting as that you can influence this 'dream' reality by thinking thoughts... reminds me of the law of attraction.

It is also time less, dreams are not chronical meaning that there is no true time and you can at whatever time you want without having to be born or ever coming into existence or leaving it. Without time, we are eternal.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by Rosinitiate

 

In your dreams you are eternal. You can't really die. You understand that you are not your dream body and it is just an "object" that you are watching in the dream which you believe to be yourself.

What's interesting as that you can influence this 'dream' reality by thinking thoughts... reminds me of the law of attraction.

It is also time less, dreams are not chronical meaning that there is no true time and you can at whatever time you want without having to be born or ever coming into existence or leaving it. Without time, we are eternal.

Excellent, I couldn't agree more. It is truly amazing how our minds can compact hours of subjective time, into 20 minutes of dreaming. The illusion of time in our dreams, is seen so clearly when we look back upon it.

Originally posted by Rosinitiate
Thanks for sharing as it triggered a thought I've had for years but never think to talk about it.

So "we" are often aware we had dreamed but for the life of us we can never seem to remember it.....only sometimes to the memories come crashing through.

As stated before, while in the dream we function as its our reality and completely unaware of the lack of context in the dream. To us while dreaming, seems as real as reality.

So we all think that being awake is reality and dreams are our subconscious. Yet except for certain instances we typically don't remember what we dream. In our dreams we don't know we exist outside of the dream.

Because we don't typically remember our dreams every day doesn't it stand to reason that perhaps the reason they seem so random is because we can't remember how we got to one point in the dream to the other. Even while in a single dream we seem to jump from one point to another but isn't that just our conscious trying to rationalize something it isn't getting the whole picture on?

I say this because I had a dream that spanned 3 days. The dream just continues from one day to the next and was quite awesome. But isn't it possible relativity in our "dream" is fundamentally different then our perceived reality. So it is possible that dreams are quite possibly us in a "real" place just very different then the here an now.

And what if......The dream state is more real then our reality. And although we can't remember in this state, nor every single time we dream. But perhaps our dream self is just as baffled by this "reality" that we are of the "dream"

WHOA!

Yes it's a strange setup. dreams sometimes seem like playgrounds for the mind to experience existence. And in order for it to play this IN/OUT game, it must voluntarily shed the knowledge of itself. Again and again and again..

True, there are lots of ways to phase out of your body and experience life beyond it's constraints. OBE's and realms beyond the Mental planes. But then we start to go into the mystical and metaphysical. Which is a difficult place to find common ground.

I cry to return my tears to the ocean. My feet become the sand on the beach. I dream of a time before I noticed the passing of things. Life is still, yet beyond my reach.

Originally posted by Visitor2012
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

Considering that you ARE the character in the dream (as well as everything else in the dream), how does your dream-self act independently of you? Yes, the dreamt-self can have its own likes and dislikes, it's own tendencies and anxieties, but how can it have its own independent will? In the dream, it appears as though you are indeed acting independently of the external world. But is it true, or is it an illusion?

It acts as the lesson you are supposed to learn. This is a shortcut to having lived many Karmic lives (there is not that much time left for 200 or more lives). You have to realize you are dreaming or out of body without corrupting the lesson (DONT WAKE UP) you are conciously dreaming something you yourself set up as a learning curve for your soul progression. The lesson always (for me) involves unpleasantries so "like" plays no part. I havent found yet how I can manipulate an outcome, (these seem like very intense shortstories) worst senarios are ludicrist. Falling from a cliff and grabbing a bush to save myself, lost in a labrinth the only exit is guarded by a hydra; (what happens at the peak, realization death is near, an orgasm), many of these involve this sensation and the idea was to NOT WAKE UP during the experience. WHY? I dont know, but I am either out of body or dreaming, cannot tell the difference yet. Why is this important, because this is how the Prime Creator communicates ultimately? The orgasm is its gift to the human (IM TALKING TO YOU) I am coming into a belief that the waking world is the dream, and the dream (out of body experience) is the REALITY.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by Rosinitiate

 

In your dreams you are eternal. You can't really die. You understand that you are not your dream body and it is just an "object" that you are watching in the dream which you believe to be yourself. What's interesting as that you can influence this 'dream' reality by thinking thoughts... reminds me of the law of attraction.
It is also time less, dreams are not chronical meaning that there is no true time and you can at whatever time you want without having to be born or ever coming into existence or leaving it. Without time, we are eternal.

In my dreams I am mortal. I dont know that I can really die. Script writer (ME) is very good at this, and not only am I aware that all characters are me, the situations I wrote I STILL FOOL MYSELF into thinking this is the real deal. I try to change the dialoge for a different outcome, I never succeed as the script is plastic, and changes to my changes, its a living thing, like improvisational comedy. We are eternal, perhaps dreamstates are supposed to convince us of this (lacking anything else tangible, a belief system in the afterlife). These notions should be mandate upon birth, that the human experience is a rarity/special/the ultimate litmus test for existance.

reply to post by Visitor2012

Originally posted by Visitor2012
But since you, the dreamer, are doing the WHOLE thing, there is no such thing as a separate you who becomes the witness and abides in it.

Yes, I agree - there is no separate "you" who becomes the Witness, as Consciousness is already the case, always. But this is not recognized, and certainly not realized, by nearly anyone. And thus the question - because if you think there is a "you" witnessing apart or separate from what is appearing, then that is still an ego-I observing objects.

And, as I said earlier, truly being the witness of what arises, is not being separate from what arises:

Originally posted by bb23108
To the degree that awareness identifies with the changes only, there is the illusion of the separate ego-I. To the degree that one sees we are simply awareness, non-separate from all changes but not identified with such changes - we are free.

Originally posted by Visitor2012
So the question, 'how to abide in the witness', sprouts from the illusion of the problem.

Yes, but again, it is extremely rare that anyone has actually realized the Witness or Consciousness Itself. There are more and more people recognizing something about the truth of non-duality, but mainly from the standpoint of the observer separate from the observed. Also, the real yogic signs of such realization are not evident in those with only a mental understanding of non-duality.

Even those who then recognize that one is the same as awareness and all occurs in awareness, still tend to think this is about an infinitely expanded "I" - just as you said, it is all occurring in "you". But there truly is no "you" that is the Witness Consciousness - any such "you" is the observer function. Any sense of "I" or "you" is vanished in Consciousness Itself or the Witness - and for this very reason, full realization is extremely rare. Until then, the ego-I IS the question.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


I agree as far as I'm aware I'm very much mortal. Many times afraid for my life. I have so many bizarre dreams and many of them I'm acting out or in defense. The one that will always say with me until death is "The Green Apple" dream.

When the dreamer realizes it is not the dream, it can consciously create the dream. This is the epitome of the lucid dream. If you also do not say, "I am the dreamer", then how can you create? You cant have will without an identity.

So maybe it is that you do have an identity, but it is beyond the dream. So I am not the dream, I am the dreamer and the dream is just a creation of my mind. Therefore, nothing you see here you can call your self, but you know there is a you where everything you see here comes from.

The dreamer will never be seen - it is the unseen presence. Without the dream being seen, it cannot appear to exist.
The appearance (apparent dream) is dependent upon the seer of the dream.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
When the dreamer realizes it is not the dream, it can consciously create the dream. This is the epitome of the lucid dream. If you also do not say, "I am the dreamer", then how can you create? You cant have will without an identity.

So maybe it is that you do have an identity, but it is beyond the dream. So I am not the dream, I am the dreamer and the dream is just a creation of my mind. Therefore, nothing you see here you can call your self, but you know there is a you where everything you see here comes from.

Then, as the dreamer, subject to the illusions of the dream, it is your mission to bring true self awareness into the dream. Self awareness is the content of the quality of lucidity. I find that being self aware within a dream is even better than the ability to manifest your desire.

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by smithjustinb
When the dreamer realizes it is not the dream, it can consciously create the dream. This is the epitome of the lucid dream. If you also do not say, "I am the dreamer", then how can you create? You cant have will without an identity.

So maybe it is that you do have an identity, but it is beyond the dream. So I am not the dream, I am the dreamer and the dream is just a creation of my mind. Therefore, nothing you see here you can call your self, but you know there is a you where everything you see here comes from.

Then, as the dreamer, subject to the illusions of the dream, it is your mission to bring true self awareness into the dream. Self awareness is the content of the quality of lucidity. I find that being self aware within a dream is even better than the ability to manifest your desire.

Self awareness is the problem. Self is one. Self awareness is two. Who is aware of what?
When the two become one the kingdom shall be revealed.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by smithjustinb
When the dreamer realizes it is not the dream, it can consciously create the dream. This is the epitome of the lucid dream. If you also do not say, "I am the dreamer", then how can you create? You cant have will without an identity.

So maybe it is that you do have an identity, but it is beyond the dream. So I am not the dream, I am the dreamer and the dream is just a creation of my mind. Therefore, nothing you see here you can call your self, but you know there is a you where everything you see here comes from.

Then, as the dreamer, subject to the illusions of the dream, it is your mission to bring true self awareness into the dream. Self awareness is the content of the quality of lucidity. I find that being self aware within a dream is even better than the ability to manifest your desire.

Self awareness is the problem. Self is one. Self awareness is two. Who is aware of what?
When the two become one the kingdom shall be revealed.

edit on 1-6-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Then who is the one, when realization occurs, you refer to as, "I"

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by smithjustinb
When the dreamer realizes it is not the dream, it can consciously create the dream. This is the epitome of the lucid dream. If you also do not say, "I am the dreamer", then how can you create? You cant have will without an identity.

So maybe it is that you do have an identity, but it is beyond the dream. So I am not the dream, I am the dreamer and the dream is just a creation of my mind. Therefore, nothing you see here you can call your self, but you know there is a you where everything you see here comes from.

Then, as the dreamer, subject to the illusions of the dream, it is your mission to bring true self awareness into the dream. Self awareness is the content of the quality of lucidity. I find that being self aware within a dream is even better than the ability to manifest your desire.

Self awareness is the problem. Self is one. Self awareness is two. Who is aware of what?
When the two become one the kingdom shall be revealed.

edit on 1-6-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Then who is the one, when realization occurs, you refer to as, "I"

The one is not a who.

Dreams, wonderful dreams.

Astral projection, out of body experiences, the error in viewing what is really going on here, is in the semantics.

What is projecting? What is there that was in the body, that is now out of it experiencing it?

The dreamer, is indeed the whole of the dream, and every character within it, is a manifestation of the dreamer seeking form.

Awareness always is, even when the body sleeps and we perceive dreams. Awareness is not projecting outward, it is not leaving the body to another space. Rather, awareness is always watching, what it watches it tends to become, and what it watches while we dream, is only remembered by us as humans, as to what we can relate to within our own reality. Meaning, only the symbols we are familiar with, and their definitions, act as the interpretations to what awareness is thinking about when it is not fully in the body.

Honestly, what is the true projection, is our body. When we are 'awake' and moving about in our reality, awareness is projecting into a very finite point. Awareness is having an IBE, or in body experience.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by smithjustinb
When the dreamer realizes it is not the dream, it can consciously create the dream. This is the epitome of the lucid dream. If you also do not say, "I am the dreamer", then how can you create? You cant have will without an identity.

So maybe it is that you do have an identity, but it is beyond the dream. So I am not the dream, I am the dreamer and the dream is just a creation of my mind. Therefore, nothing you see here you can call your self, but you know there is a you where everything you see here comes from.

Then, as the dreamer, subject to the illusions of the dream, it is your mission to bring true self awareness into the dream. Self awareness is the content of the quality of lucidity. I find that being self aware within a dream is even better than the ability to manifest your desire.

Self awareness is the problem. Self is one. Self awareness is two. Who is aware of what?
When the two become one the kingdom shall be revealed.

edit on 1-6-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Then who is the one, when realization occurs, you refer to as, "I"

The one is not a who.

So you wouldnt say, "I am the one"?