Jehovah's Witnesses believe UN will ban Religion

Originally posted by smallpeeps

Intrepid, what you fail to grasp is that a person's argument is not always made in one post. I am making my point in a sequence, just like I did in the other thread which you fled from.

Why would I flee, I'm kicking your butt in this debate.

Getting back on topic....

This is the first point you've made and I should have known better. Why don't you post your last post to me in another thread, the Faith, Spirituallity forum should do, so that we don't further derail this thread. I could do it but it would have more continuity if you did. We can post a link once it's up.

Originally posted by Brad_cf
ok , im a JW so i musnt be able to think for myself ? im sorry but saying it doesnt make it true . & yes , JW's prostelyise to find people with spiritual questions , to which genuine answers can be found in the bible . Jesus himself said he was sent to the weak & oppressed so if you think calling upon these people is bad then i dont know what your expecting me to say ?

Brad, what I would like, is for you to consider the forces that send you from door-to-door. No way would you have done it on your own. Right now you think you are knocking on doors to discuss spirituality, but ask yourself why the hours are so important. Ask yourself why the church needs to count your hours. In my experience, and based on the haggard JW pioneers I knew and worked beside, the "door-to-door work" drains the members lives away, and for little benefit. Work is the key word.

A person at their door is not seeking spiritual counsel, but in fact, they are vulnerable. Don't think so? Ask yourself how welcome a credit-collector would be on the doorstep? That's the kind of witness you want to give? Because that's how people see you. They avoid JWs.

If really imitating Jesus was the true JW goal, you'd preach much differently. For sure there are JWs who are very glad that they only have to quietly knock on a few doors and pretend it's "preaching" because if real preaching was to happen (like how Jesus did, person to person), they'd be lost. Realize please that you are only a vessel for what doctrine has already been decided to market. You simply deliver that propaganda. Now if you were to knock on a door and talk to them like you, brad, a human being, then I would respect your work.

quite a stretch , David K was hardly operating a biblical organisation was he

No, but the point is that your expectation of persecution is increased when you make yourself a target for that. Koresh was militant and the JWs are passive, but both believed that the "unbelievers" would come kill them (or try). Really, the psychological profile is quite similar.

but becoming a disciple of JC will , or should do , motorvate you to share the news of Gods kingdom . if the spirit is having an effect in your life , then as a christian you should be moved in some way to share this knowledge with others - its the reason & work JC came to earth to do

Yes but what knowledge? You were indoctrinated with that "knowledge". There's not a single piece of your belief system which you, brad, came up with. It's a package deal like a religious Happy Meal. For the record, Jesus did not come to Earth to hand out Watchtowers or to prepare for the day when that would happen. Sorry, but no.

Originally posted by Brad_cf
1) you are meaning deliberate apostate writings no ? i have never been told of a specific book that i was to never read , but apostate material is warned against for obvious reasons .

Brad, you understand that "apostacy" means leaving ANY church? See if I leave the Catholics and join a church (like the JWs) that loathes Catholicsm, then I have apostacized. Get it? So your use of the term "apostate" means "anybody who knows how to argue against our faith"... Essentially that's my point: If someone writes a book designed to help the JW see truth (beyond the simple JW doctrine he/she knows) then it is deemed forbidden "apostate material" even if written by someone who was never part of the JW faith.

JWs are encouraged to read the bible

Let me describe the scenario to you Brad: I give you a book which is widely open to interpretation. Then I walk you (step by step) through a few passages in that book, carefully building up your perspective of that book. Then, after I have completely convinced you that my doctrine is correct, I tell you to go read the book over and over. ...Have I done anything Christlike? Answer: No. I have not talked to you, I have not addressed the human individual. Reading the bible once you've already accepted your crystallized framework for it, will only reinforce your beliefs.

what collusion ? the fax you posted showed how exactly that the WTB&TS was "colluding" with the UN ? im sorry but your hyping nothing as if it was something

As I linked above, the Watchtower has published pro-UN propaganda in their propaganda magazines. These articles look like they were designed to impress, wouldn't you say?

www.randytv.com...
www.randytv.com...

...Oh but then again, the UN is Satan's tool isn't it? Clarify for me, the relationship between the UN and the Wild Beast, if you would.

[Here's a great exchange regarding the Watchtower's UN relationship.]

discussions over the internet are not the way to spread the message from JC or his father - they go nowhere. face to face is the only way.

I disagree, and so does the Watchtower. They fear the Internet which is why they spend so much time counselling their members not to go into the "dark corners" of the internet. In fact, if you spend enough time on ATS, you'll probably want to avoid mentioning it to the Elders.

(satan , if he is real hates all christian religons & especially those they try to preach & convert)

Satan hates all Christian religions? I think you have confused your JW doctrines. JWs believe that Satan controls all the world's religions. All those except the Watchtower corporation I mean.

Anyway I sense that you answers are sincere and heartfelt so I wish you well.



[edit on 3-7-2006 by smallpeeps]

Originally posted by intrepid
Why don't you post your last post to me in another thread, the Faith, Spirituallity forum should do, so that we don't further derail this thread. I could do it but it would have more continuity if you did. We can post a link once it's up.

Derail this thread? I have posted several paragraphs specifically regarding the UN and the Watchtower, complete with links to discussion which will help people decide. You've posted nothing except your personal story, which sounds dubious since a person doesn't choose to leave and also get disfellowshipped.

IMO, in both of our discussions, you are acting shamefully by slapping aside the evidence of real suffering. It's hurting the innocent and hidden inside the church of your youth. I wish you had more of a heart, frankly.

This image is a tract which describes what NGOs do for the United Nations. Notice that they are to disseminate UN ideaology to their respective countries. Also to "Monitor and promote policies of their own countries in support of UN goals".




Below is a portion of an essay about the NGO process.

www.randytv.com...

It struck me as rather hypocritical that after receiving such a detailed orientation which takes 2 days to complete, and even being given film documentation as to all the facts and features of the United Nations, why the Watchtower leaders would go ahead and once again register in 1992, when they had previously been given a total tour of the criteria for NGOs in 1991 when they joined! After all, the Watchtower's Governing Body already knew that the U.N. General Assembly members did (not) agree with those who believe in the concept of ideological Armageddon!

The Watchtower Society was aware of this fact because in their 1991 "Awake" magazine of September 8, page-3 the article states: "Mr. Guido de Marco, president of the General Assembly of the United Nations, shared this optimism. He proclaimed glowingly: "The dawn of a new system based on friendship and cooperation between the major powers is on the horizon. . . . These developments have revitalized the United Nations Organisation. He said that “the role of the General Assembly as the focal point of international discussion and deliberation, has been reaffirmed in an impressive manner. Because of this, he further stated: "The world no longer lives in the shadow of a possible Armageddon sparked by ideological competition.

The ending of the threat of Armageddon probably came as a shock to more than a few "Awake!" readers in 1991, eh? Seriously though, this indicates that the Watchtower knew what the UN stood for: Elimination of the chance of Armageddon.

Also, isn't it interesting that Mr. de Marco uses the term "new system"? Of course as we all know, "new system" is the JW catchphrase for their paradise world (after Armageddon and rebuilding, of course).

[BTW, the named person in the URL above ("randy"), is a genuine human being and is a former Watchtower Bethel worker and I have met him personally. He is one of a few people who get no money, but who are determined to publish truth.]


[edit on 3-7-2006 by smallpeeps]

Then there's the Bulgarian Blood Crisis. Bulgarian JWs are given a special exception to the "no blood transfusion" rule. This means that Bulgarian JWs MAY recieve a blood transfusion compared to the rest of the world's JWs. Why? Simple. The Bulgarian Government has a law saying that everybody (no matter which faith) MUST, by law, get a blood transfusion if they need one. It's against Bulgarian laws to refuse the blood transfusions.

So, Bulgarian JWs are aloud to take blood when the rest of the JW world is not. Sounds like a double standard like the UN incident.


Oooo boy...

Wisconsin

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by smallpeeps

Intrepid, what you fail to grasp is that a person's argument is not always made in one post. I am making my point in a sequence, just like I did in the other thread which you fled from.

Why would I flee, I'm kicking your butt in this debate.

I wouldn't go that far. The rounds aren't over. Small Peeps is well versed and has alot of factual sophisticated explanations. You are well versed as well, Intrepid. Both of you guys have merits in your arguements. But you "kicking butt"?? Not exactly, Intrepid. Not exactly.

Wisconsin

[edit on 4-7-2006 by Wisconsin]

Originally posted by smallpeeps
As for the character of the JWs themselves, yes, as I have said on ATS before, they are nice people. Nice, simple people. But you really wouldn't call a JW a participating member of society, would you? They are totally ignorant of world events and politics, so what use are they? Are they a bunch of peaceful people? No, for in their hearts there is righteous hatred and lots of capped dissatisfaction. They follow the WTBTS corporation so really they are only as nice as the corporation tells them to be. This could be changed at any moment. Not that they'd become evil, but they will become colder toward humanity. Group-Superiority type thinking tends to do that.

They long for the day when they'll see birds pulling flesh from corpses. Because this wll be the culmination of Jehovah's Great Day of annihalation. Finally all non-JWs will be dead. That part of their psyche disgusts me, particularly when their minds are so well guarded against truth. To hold onto an idea as sick as Armageddon, but to reject any rational thought?

wow , thats some way to describe us , for a start

1) im not ignorant to the world at all , & in this info age , how could one be . i work among other religous & non-religous people . JW's are not shut-ins . we are ordinary people trying to get along in this world while living according to Gods commands

2) rightous hatred ? hating things that are un-rightous is a virtue christians have to foster - how else can you abstain from things pleasurable to the flesh that God decrees as un-rightous , the natural path of the fleshly desires & the path God wants you to travel conflict . learning to love that which is rightous in Gods eyes will lead you to hate that which is unrightous

3) we follow the bible & its teachings , people are as nice as their disposition allows them to be , some people carry around a lot of hurt , God see this & helps us out individually . for Christians that God watches over , they recieve as they pratice the fruitages of the spirit

Love
Joy
Peace
kindness , ect ect

these are the things that JWs as a group share amongst themselves & to others - the christian way of life .

4) as christians we long for God to take back control of the world & end human misery - armageddon will be terrifying for christians as well as unbelievers - its not an occasion for joy . we dont long for people to be wiped out . God himself , the one we are supposed to be imitating says he wishes that no one would be destroyed

saying people will be destroyed is not done out of "joyfull elietisim" , its a warning we have to share that goes along with the message of Gods Kingdom , which is really a message of hope & love - the joyfull part will be in the earth & humanitys restoration

5) armageddon is a bible truth - only those against God hold onto hope that its make-believe . the dead will be unbelievers & those God has judged as people who wont follow him - pray to him for guidence if you believe in him to be showen the way to avoid being included

you reply in a nice manner ,which i appreciate - but every line is wrong in one way or another

[edit on 4-7-2006 by Brad_cf]

As I linked above, the Watchtower has published pro-UN propaganda in their propaganda magazines. These articles look like they were designed to impress, wouldn't you say?

www.randytv.com...
www.randytv.com...

...Oh but then again, the UN is Satan's tool isn't it? Clarify for me, the relationship between the UN and the Wild Beast, if you would.

the declaration of human rights

its a laudable part of the human pscyhe

God expects us to treat other in a similer fashion , i see nothing at all in how your trying to paint the WT&BTS

the UN has power given to it by the wild beast - its a tool & accomplishes that which the wild beast wants it too

the declaration is bad or wrong in what way ? its a work of man that shows humans thought on human life - im sorry if you think this should have been rubbished by the WT&BTS instead , but that would hardly have been christian would it

hat I would like, is for you to consider the forces that send you from door-to-door. No way would you have done it on your own. Right now you think you are knocking on doors to discuss spirituality, but ask yourself why the hours are so important. Ask yourself why the church needs to count your hours. In my experience, and based on the haggard JW pioneers I knew and worked beside, the "door-to-door work" drains the members lives away, and for little benefit. Work is the key word.

A person at their door is not seeking spiritual counsel, but in fact, they are vulnerable. Don't think so? Ask yourself how welcome a credit-collector would be on the doorstep? That's the kind of witness you want to give? Because that's how people see you. They avoid JWs.

If really imitating Jesus was the true JW goal, you'd preach much differently. For sure there are JWs who are very glad that they only have to quietly knock on a few doors and pretend it's "preaching" because if real preaching was to happen (like how Jesus did, person to person), they'd be lost. Realize please that you are only a vessel for what doctrine has already been decided to market. You simply deliver that propaganda. Now if you were to knock on a door and talk to them like you, brad, a human being, then I would respect your work.

your correct i wouldnt have been able to go person to person & discuss the bible on my own , it takes power beyond my own for me to be able to do it week by week

i do go door to door to discuss sprititual matters & to answer spiritual questions that are raised to me - sorry if you think im not doing that - take this as a clarification . & the answers i give come from the bible , its the only true source of spiritual infomation outside of direct contact with the creator

all the pioneers i work with have a christian spirit - & they have a deep love & respect for Jehovah , sharing their time & knowledge in Gods service brings them joy , something the world can punish & harass them over - but is unable to take from them

they get tierd like any other person does - but they all share in this joy of the spirit

we dont go to the doors just to find those who are searching for biblical truth , we meet mostly people who dont want it - your totally correct when you say we are viewed like those that are collecting debts

thats too bad for us , because this preaching work has to be done , these people who wouldnt otherwise have anything to do with the bible have to be given the opportunity to hear of it - turn us away , its your right . but to leave people in the world under satans power & keep spritiual truth to our own individual selves is warned against in the scriptures - & the want to share it comes from within

its an unpopuler message - your eanr a reputation with all those who see you as one of "those" religous bible types in your community , in other words your correct that its unpopuler & something most people dont want to be put on the spot over - thats too bad for them

this "real preaching" you speak of JC doing - its the model we have to live by& its the same type of activity that JW's do in their "preaching" . . . . . . door to door , house to house , neighbour to neighbour - not "some" , but everyone in every town , as well as the countryside

the "propaganda" , awakes & watchtowers - they help lead to bible discussions - & this is the real goal - to share bible truth & scripture! , not every witness is a total ace at it - this is the reason for training at meetings . . . . but be sure! sharing the message of the bible is the real goal of all witnesses who are out on the preaching work

No, but the point is that your expectation of persecution is increased when you make yourself a target for that. Koresh was militant and the JWs are passive, but both believed that the "unbelievers" would come kill them (or try). Really, the psychological profile is quite similar.

your trying in yet another way to link us to the branch davidians ?

as you pointed out - we are not militant , nor are we anti-government . christians are expected to obey laws of the land , be peacable & pay taxes . law abiding citizens in other words

we have an expectation of persecution because of what the bible has to say - except JW's believe the forces behind it are spiritual & that despite being able to be killed , Jehovah will remember us

what David K teached them at that compound is Very different to what we preach , please - the "profile" is very different to us & could only be loosly described as "similer"





[edit on 4-7-2006 by Brad_cf]

Let me describe the scenario to you Brad: I give you a book which is widely open to interpretation. Then I walk you (step by step) through a few passages in that book, carefully building up your perspective of that book. Then, after I have completely convinced you that my doctrine is correct, I tell you to go read the book over and over. ...Have I done anything Christlike? Answer: No. I have not talked to you, I have not addressed the human individual. Reading the bible once you've already accepted your crystallized framework for it, will only reinforce your beliefs.

poor attempt at entrapment ?

you convince me about a "book" , but bring up being christlike , hmmm

so this book is what ? about christ , a "doctrine" of christ that widely open to interpretation?

& by sharing info on it your saying isnt being christlike ?

lets say this book is the bible - lets say you have discovered the absolute truth in the bible - by sharing your info with me & bringing me to the way of the truth in Gods eyes . . . . we can say "yes" to your question

"am i being christlike ?" . . . . yes you would have been .

the bible is a unique book , its discusses lots of topics , & many different parts spread all thru the book discuss similer topics , you do need a total overview of what the bible says from start to finish to see the truth in it

like a thread it weaves all thru the book - its undeniable

the JW religon have the absolute truth to share about the bible - about jehovah , who he is & what he intends to do with this earth & mankind living upon it

becoming indoctrinated in Gods way of life is something every human wants to do - its for their own good & will bring us blessings individually in a greater scope than we can imagine - eternity awaits human kind in a personal relationship with the almighty creator

sharing the knoweldge of this is a christian duty

hating those that try to do this is imitating someone who hates jehovah - you know who im meaning , he is on this earth & has been your whole life as well as mine .
you can sit & discuss how "bad" people in the JW organisation have been , but this weekend like every single other weekend people all over the world will be getting up early to spread the message about God as the bible tells it to their neighbours/community . this is accomplishing Gods will & they recieve blessings for it , trying to tear it down is accomplishing Satans will - except you dont get rewarded

Had to read everything since I last posted and I want to thank all for your kind words It has been many years since the situation that I described and I can honestly say that the only thing that it did was to make me a whole lot stronger and more skeptical of organised religions as a whole. Personally I find it hard to believe that a God who proffesses to have so much love for man, would single out only one "faith", rather than truely look into the hearts of the individual. Why should a person of say the "hindu" religion who has been brought up their entire lives to believe that the way that they believe and practice is the true path to God, simply accept that their way in fact is wrong, simply on the word of someone else. Even if the person who is sharing these revelations is also sharing scripture from their bible, for the Hindus also have their holy books that they read and memorize. The truths to them are just as real, as the truths that the newcomer believes theirs to be. So who between the two of them is wicked if they are serving their beliefs out of faith and love, who is worthy of destruction? Truth is relative. I don't want to be a "sheep", sheep are dumb, they will blindly follow one another off the edge of a cliff to their destruction. I prefer to be a human with the abilities to analyze information that is presented to me both orally and printed with a mind that is not filled with the leanings of others. I am not afraid to do that even if it makes others feel uneasy. I don't need to feel that there is someone out there who is watching over me nor that there is some evil force that is constantly trying to make me do evil or unhealthy things. I have learned that if I do wrong then there is only myself to blame. I feel that we do wrong for many reasons, sometimes its due to ignorance or inexperience, but mostly it's due to selfishness, that ol' desire to satisfy our a longings for immediate gratification, when the only way to true gratification comes from working at something for awhile, and attaining it after we have earned it. Unfortunately I think that all religions have the same problems and that is because they are all focused on furthering the goals of the religion and not the true needs of the individuals that make them up. Unfortunately this is the perfect for the truely defective personalities of society to gravitate. Firstly they can give the outwardly appearance of respectability, and secondly they can try to save their soul! I often wonder that if Christ were to see how many people had been killed in wars fought in his name, and how many people exude hatred towards other people because they believe differently, while claiming to be following his teachings, I just wonder if he would have sacrificed himself so painfully in such a public forum once more. I'm pretty sure that he would be brought to tears and the anguish would break his heart. For surely this is not what he intended, it is in direct opposition to the example that he lived. I do not believe that he ever wanted to be worshipped, he was wanting his life only to be an example; to give of yourself to others unselfishly,& if you believe in something, then believe in it wholly even unto death, Fill your heart with love and do not judge everyone else around you as being inferior, after all we are all human, some of us are just starting out getting to know who we are and what we beleve in, but we are still all the same. I believe that the only way to truely elevate our energy is to look deep inside and remember back to a time or place when we knew instinctively if something was right or wrong just by the way it felt, no one needed to tell us. If we live in accordance with that, well I believe, that is the example that Christ gave to us that is the true secret to life and living successfully. Well, now you have my philosophy, it works for me and it isn't dependent on someone elses approval. Just thought I would share it with all of you.:roll

Originally posted by Brad_cf
the bible is a unique book , its discusses lots of topics , & many different parts spread all thru the book discuss similer topics , you do need a total overview of what the bible says from start to finish to see the truth in it

like a thread it weaves all thru the book - its undeniable

the JW religon have the absolute truth to share about the bible - about jehovah , who he is & what he intends to do with this earth & mankind living upon it

becoming indoctrinated in Gods way of life is something every human wants to do - its for their own good & will bring us blessings individually in a greater scope than we can imagine - eternity awaits human kind in a personal relationship with the almighty creator

sharing the knoweldge of this is a christian duty

hating those that try to do this is imitating someone who hates jehovah - you know who im meaning , he is on this earth & has been your whole life as well as mine .
you can sit & discuss how "bad" people in the JW organisation have been , but this weekend like every single other weekend people all over the world will be getting up early to spread the message about God as the bible tells it to their neighbours/community . this is accomplishing Gods will & they recieve blessings for it , trying to tear it down is accomplishing Satans will - except you dont get rewarded

Brad cf -
I honestly believe you are speaking from your heart, Your words have passion in them that can only come from someone who believes without reservation. I believe that you share these things unselfishly, wanting to give the oppertunity to the people whom you meet, to find the answers to their questions the way you have found yours. Even though you came into this debate which was not friendly towards you faith you have spoken both eloquently and patiently. While I do not doubt that you have found the answers that spoke volumes to you, and to many others as well, we are not all asking them same life questions. I am very glad that you have found such obvious peace with the congregation you have found, that is important if you are going to worship together. Unfortunately I found the other side of the coin. And I don't intend to make this into a woe is me, I realized that in each group at some time or other there is going to be a few bad apples. The point that I am trying to make is that it made me more self reliant, and critical of my own actions. While watching these people who professed their love for God and watching the parody that their lives were I watched them tear into their own fold with teeth bared, and guess what? It shocked no one! Not one of these "brothers and sisters" stopped for even a moment and thought how odd it was for them to do these things to a child. Nor did they think it strange to raise a child believing that they might be put to death and suffer much torture on the way because of what they were being taught. You know what my thought is? How come we are supposed to suffer so much pain and torture to love God? Why should our love be rewarded in such a manner by a God that is supposed to love us so much? Why does he require so much "blood sacrifice" before he is satisfied? Remember Brad, there are many people who have other agendas, not everyone has the ability to believe so genuinely as you do.

Mod Edit: BB Code.

[edit on 6/7/2006 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by smallpeeps

Originally posted by intrepid
Why don't you post your last post to me in another thread, the Faith, Spirituallity forum should do, so that we don't further derail this thread. I could do it but it would have more continuity if you did. We can post a link once it's up.

Derail this thread? I have posted several paragraphs specifically regarding the UN and the Watchtower, complete with links to discussion which will help people decide. You've posted nothing except your personal story, which sounds dubious since a person doesn't choose to leave and also get disfellowshipped.

IMO, in both of our discussions, you are acting shamefully by slapping aside the evidence of real suffering. It's hurting the innocent and hidden inside the church of your youth. I wish you had more of a heart, frankly.

So you are declining my offer to continue this in another thread then? This is priceless as your last post to me you were worried that I was going to flee. I guess that if all you have is a tactical withdrawl you have to go with it.

As to what I've bolded in your post, again you have maligned my character as I have NEVER "slapped aside" anything, no matter how hard you attempt to paint me as such.

OK, your agenda has been exposed, your arguement shot down in flames. If at ANY time you wish to take this up again, no problem. I suggest you work on your debate skills though, this was too easy, I didn't even have to Google once.

Originally posted by Brad_cf

hat I would like, is for you to consider the forces that send you from door-to-door. No way would you have done it on your own. Right now you think you are knocking on doors to discuss spirituality, but ask yourself why the hours are so important. Ask yourself why the church needs to count your hours. In my experience, and based on the haggard JW pioneers I knew and worked beside, the "door-to-door work" drains the members lives away, and for little benefit. Work is the key word.

A person at their door is not seeking spiritual counsel, but in fact, they are vulnerable. Don't think so? Ask yourself how welcome a credit-collector would be on the doorstep? That's the kind of witness you want to give? Because that's how people see you. They avoid JWs.

If really imitating Jesus was the true JW goal, you'd preach much differently. For sure there are JWs who are very glad that they only have to quietly knock on a few doors and pretend it's "preaching" because if real preaching was to happen (like how Jesus did, person to person), they'd be lost. Realize please that you are only a vessel for what doctrine has already been decided to market. You simply deliver that propaganda. Now if you were to knock on a door and talk to them like you, brad, a human being, then I would respect your work.

your correct i wouldnt have been able to go person to person & discuss the bible on my own , it takes power beyond my own for me to be able to do it week by week

i do go door to door to discuss sprititual matters & to answer spiritual questions that are raised to me - sorry if you think im not doing that - take this as a clarification . & the answers i give come from the bible , its the only true source of spiritual infomation outside of direct contact with the creator

all the pioneers i work with have a christian spirit - & they have a deep love & respect for Jehovah , sharing their time & knowledge in Gods service brings them joy , something the world can punish & harass them over - but is unable to take from them

they get tierd like any other person does - but they all share in this joy of the spirit

we dont go to the doors just to find those who are searching for biblical truth , we meet mostly people who dont want it - your totally correct when you say we are viewed like those that are collecting debts

thats too bad for us , because this preaching work has to be done , these people who wouldnt otherwise have anything to do with the bible have to be given the opportunity to hear of it - turn us away , its your right . but to leave people in the world under satans power & keep spritiual truth to our own individual selves is warned against in the scriptures - & the want to share it comes from within

its an unpopuler message - your eanr a reputation with all those who see you as one of "those" religous bible types in your community , in other words your correct that its unpopuler & something most people dont want to be put on the spot over - thats too bad for them

this "real preaching" you speak of JC doing - its the model we have to live by& its the same type of activity that JW's do in their "preaching" . . . . . . door to door , house to house , neighbour to neighbour - not "some" , but everyone in every town , as well as the countryside

the "propaganda" , awakes & watchtowers - they help lead to bible discussions - & this is the real goal - to share bible truth & scripture! , not every witness is a total ace at it - this is the reason for training at meetings . . . . but be sure! sharing the message of the bible is the real goal of all witnesses who are out on the preaching work

The New World Translations have been changed over the years to meet JW changes in doctrines and prophecy.

Wisconsin

Originally posted by Brad_cf

No, but the point is that your expectation of persecution is increased when you make yourself a target for that. Koresh was militant and the JWs are passive, but both believed that the "unbelievers" would come kill them (or try). Really, the psychological profile is quite similar.

your trying in yet another way to link us to the branch davidians ?

as you pointed out - we are not militant , nor are we anti-government . christians are expected to obey laws of the land ,
[edit on 4-7-2006 by Brad_cf]

You don't have to obey the laws of the land if they ask you to disobey God's commandments. It's in the Bible. The Bible says that it is better to obey God than to obey man. Staying neutral as you JWs put it- is that not similar to being luke warm?

Wisconsin

Originally posted by Brad_cf
1) im not ignorant to the world at all , & in this info age , how could one be . i work among other religous & non-religous people . JW's are not shut-ins . we are ordinary people trying to get along in this world while living according to Gods commands

I never knew a signle JW who had even a college level knowledge of geography or political history. They are kept ignorant of history and politics. You mention going to work with "worldy" people (as the JWs call them) but what does that matter? How hard is it to go to work? It's not like you'll be asked to give an answer to the question: "Why is there so much conflict in the middle East?" ...Because no JW can give an answer. They can parrot the society's answer only.

2) rightous hatred ? hating things that are un-rightous is a virtue christians have to foster - how else can you abstain from things pleasurable to the flesh that God decrees as un-rightous , the natural path of the fleshly desires & the path God wants you to travel conflict . learning to love that which is rightous in Gods eyes will lead you to hate that which is unrightous

It's good to have you admit that your God is a hating one. It's fairly obvious from the scriptures He left anyway, where he kills women and kids. I guess it is true that when you conform yourselves to the Hebrew God, then you will hate what is unrighteous (not right). Like I said, everyone who's not a JW is unrighteous.

3) we follow the bible & its teachings , people are as nice as their disposition allows them to be , some people carry around a lot of hurt , God see this & helps us out individually . for Christians that God watches over , they recieve as they pratice the fruitages of the spirit

You follow an interpretation of the bible, carefully constructed to produce a docile and fully controlled robotic worshipper. Also these robots will go knock on doors with the same viral message. If I sound harsh, it's because I don't see any other way to describe it. Remember, I did this work also. I was a pioneer (aux) and I cranked up thousands of hours in "the ministry". I know exactly what is being done, in that ministry.

Love
Joy
Peace
kindness , ect ect

these are the things that JWs as a group share amongst themselves & to others - the christian way of life .

Any closed group will have super-love for the members inside. The fact that the people inside love each other means little because in joining a specialized group (cult), the emotions are automatically cranked up. That's one of the primary traits of a cult: Lovebombing on the inside. It also makes the shunning even more deadly for those who are weak.

4) as christians we long for God to take back control of the world & end human misery - armageddon will be terrifying for christians as well as unbelievers - its not an occasion for joy . we dont long for people to be wiped out . God himself , the one we are supposed to be imitating says he wishes that no one would be destroyed

This paragraph could be analyzed and discussed for pages. I know exactly what this mind prison feels like because as a kid, I believed as you do. I saw all the other people on Earth as not "righteous", but "doomed". I pictured myself cleaning up bodies after Armageddon. Eventually I realized that in fact, Armageddon could simply be nuclear war, because the JWs afterward (who are left) will not know the difference and could be told anything.

After "Armageddon/nuke war" the JWs will be in a total malleable state. They will accept any order or "New Light" which comes from the JW with the megaphone.

saying people will be destroyed is not done out of "joyfull elietisim" , its a warning we have to share that goes along with the message of Gods Kingdom , which is really a message of hope & love - the joyfull part will be in the earth & humanitys restoration

Oh yes, the joyful rebuilding of Earth after Jehovah wrecks it like the flood (but this time with fire and not water, right?). It'll be joyful to pull globs of melted huddled human forms out of the ground and from under rubble? Or will there be millions of birds pulling the meat so that the bones are nice and dry. Heck, maybe it'll be downright cheerful to pick em up, right? Picking up bones while Kingdom Melodies play in the background?

One thing I learned, Brad, is that as a JW, I had a low opinion of others and didn't recoil at the idea of their destruction. I finally realized YHWH would be a cruel, petulant child to destroy the Earth due to his little test. When I did this, I suddenly left a tiny cult and became a part of the human race, feeling only love for all humans. You can too.

5) armageddon is a bible truth - only those against God hold onto hope that its make-believe . the dead will be unbelievers & those God has judged as people who wont follow him - pray to him for guidence if you believe in him to be showen the way to avoid being included

Armageddon is a fomented, created idea. Most JWs are ignorant of the fact that both Muslims and Jews claim Abraham as their father. Muslims claim Abraham was told by YHWH to kill Ishmael, whereas you JWs like the Jews and Christians believe it was Isaac.

The point I was making above about JWs being politically ignorant is relevant especially here, because they do not see the poltiical machinery which is slowly grinding Armageddon to our doorstep, NOT like thief in the night. It takes more than just a few doorknockers. It takes wars and death and political scheming to make a war in the mid-east happen. It takes lots of political planning to create Jehovah's Great Day. Actually it's turning out to be 100% political, so the JWs should thank all the Zionists, Islamofascists and Neo-Cons for that.

Armageddon is a biblical truth so all other scriptures that predate Christ go out the window, is that right?

Originally posted by Brad_cf
the declaration of human rights

its a laudable part of the human pscyhe

Yes I am aware of the declaration. You also are aware of the anti-UN declaration which all JWs shouted "aye!" to, at the 1963 conventions?

www.jehovahs-witness.com...

WE JEHOVAH'S witnesses, met together in [City, State, Country], in one of the "Everlasting Good News" assemblies being held in a continuous chain around
the whole world this year of 1963, do this day declare and resolve as follows:

[...]

5. THAT, in order to prevent the destruction of the nations by their own means in war, the nations further refused the surrender of their sovereignty to God's Messianic kingdom by setting up a society of nations, which, since 1945, has taken the form and the name of the United Nations, with international headquarters at New York city. This international organization stands for world sovereignty by political men. For years men without faith in God's kingdom have endeavored to get all people to worship this international image of human political sovereignty as the best hope for earthly peace and security, in fact, the last hope for humanity. To date 111 nations have given worship to this political image by becoming members of it. However, we, as witnesses of the Sovereign God Jehovah, will continue refusing to engage in such idolatrous worship, for we see, under angelic enlightenment, that God has smitten such idolaters with a malignant ulcer, symbolically speaking, that will spell death to them as spiritually diseased image worshipers who worship a man-made political creation rather than the Creator of heaven and earth;

This sounds like a totally different church from the one you are describing which sees the UN human rights charter as on par with Jehovah's laws. What a turnaround. Must have been new light, eh? But why is some new light kept secret from the members?

This thread is about how the JWs fear the UN will put them in camps. I have shown that the Watchtower actually alternately hates the UN and colludes with the UN as a Non Govenrmental Organization. I have posted what NGO's do, and also we can see that the Watchtower (once their NGO status was found out) pulled their membership. If it was right to publish UN stuff and join as an NGO, then why did they end that relationship once it was no longer secret from the rank and file JWs? I think something fishy could be going on, and I think the good people of the Witness religion could be caught in the crosshairs.

BTW I am not trying to make JWs look like Branch Davidians at all. You can't see it, but I am describing what the cultish "They're coming for us" mindset is like. It's the same if it's any group that feels they will be persecuted. They will generally call that persecution down upon themselves. This is probably the third time I've clarified this comment.

its an unpopuler message - your eanr a reputation with all those who see you as one of "those" religous bible types in your community , in other words your correct that its unpopuler & something most people dont want to be put on the spot over - thats too bad for them

Yes, too bad for them that you are putting them on the spot at thier own doorstep, in a weakened and unprepared state. Did you really type something this true? I am impressed.

Originally posted by MauiStacey
I wish not to disrupt your dialog with Intepid...but I have to interject that there is no such thing as a cult when it comes to JW's.

They have congregations just as any other religious group. I personally find it offensive when people refer to them as such. There are no secret meetings or no secret meanings and it insulting when people refer to them as such. They are like any other Christian religion.

They are normal, wonderful, kind loving people who wish to spread the word of God.
There is nothing cultish about them. Nothing.

If you feel that they are the Truth and feel that maybe you want to join them, feel free. Maybe it will work for you where it hasn't worked for us. Maybe you will be able to prove us wrong. I don't know. But, if you want to join a Christian religion that really Bible based, an is more Bible based than the JWs, log onto The Church Of God websites or The United Pentecostal Church websites. All though I don't agree fully on their beliefs, they are in fact far more Bible based than the JWs.
Try them out. You'll never know unless you try. But if you decide to become a JW, great. But, just so you know, we will be here for you incase you get hurt.


Wisconsin

sorry small_peeps , but your a god hater

of course the words you say fit your ideal of us . the problem is they are so un-true that its sad

but predictable , as an apostate thinks an apostate does (& viceversa) . you say you were a pioneer ? i say that being that involved with Jehovahs organisation & yet coming to hate it means you couldnt have had much love for him

i know JW's with degrees & others that own their on business , & besides this it surprises me to see how you think a person in this infomation age could remain ignorant to the world , i think you say it because you like to see it said

you mention JWs & the Branch Davidians , im sorry but thats not a level comprison , we do not persue the same actions (militancy & refusal of co-operation) & we dont "fear" from Govt intervention in the same way - the attack on religon is expected by us but for different reasons . your claim of the "psychological profile is quite similar" is wrong

& im sorry you see Armageddon that way - its surely a lack of love for other people that led you to such a worldview . im also sorry you try to pin the blame on this on the JW's . . . . anyone with any involvement with us at all can see the total opposite

you may not like God for correcting the corruption on his earth , but nobody need die - people around the world all need a relationship with our creator & dismissing the opportunity of it out of spite is not an action of intelligence


basically im done with this thread , ive said the things that needed to be said to set you straight . . . . . . normally i just brush it off as that done by chips on the shoulder (& almost always it seems i was right) & despite realising its an apostate im conversing with i did it anyway . good luck with the way you view the world , i hope it works out for you

[edit on 6-7-2006 by Brad_cf]

Originally posted by Brad_cf
sorry small_peeps , but your a god hater

of course the words you say fit your ideal of us . the problem is they are so un-true that its sad

but predictable , as an apostate thinks an apostate does (& viceversa) . you say you were a pioneer ? i say that being that involved with Jehovahs organisation & yet coming to hate it means you couldnt have had much love for him

i know JW's with degrees & others that own their on business , & besides this it surprises me to see how you think a person in this infomation age could remain ignorant to the world , i think you say it because you like to see it said

you mention JWs & the Branch Davidians , im sorry but thats not a level comprison , we do not persue the same actions (militancy & refusal of co-operation) & we dont "fear" from Govt intervention in the same way - the attack on religon is expected by us but for different reasons . your claim of the "psychological profile is quite similar" is wrong

& im sorry you see Armageddon that way - its surely a lack of love for other people that led you to such a worldview . im also sorry you try to pin the blame on this on the JW's . . . . anyone with any involvement with us at all can see the total opposite

you may not like God for correcting the corruption on his earth , but nobody need die - people around the world all need a relationship with our creator & dismissing the opportunity of it out of spite is not an action of intelligence


basically im done with this thread , ive said the things that needed to be said to set you straight . . . . . . normally i just brush it off as that done by chips on the shoulder (& almost always it seems i was right) & despite realising its an apostate im conversing with i did it anyway . good luck with the way you view the world , i hope it works out for you

[edit on 6-7-2006 by Brad_cf]

Wait a minute. God Hater? I don't think so. God os grande and God is good. His Organizational Governing Body, on the other hand, is nothing but "two faced child mollesting trash". Seriously. It is. I mean, people with plastic and wooden faces, cheap smiles, fake handshakes, back biting,
scripted compliments and child humping is the WATCHTOWER organization of Jehovah- not Jehovah himself. No way. Jehovah is truth and the Watchtower is making him out to be a two faced, hypocritical, lying and unfeeling sodomizing rapist. No sir. He loves God. GOD's GB organization, however, loves and fondles Satan. You stated that Peeps is a God Hater. Well, I'd take a good, long and hard look at Jehovah's ORGANIZATION. On a Spiritual sense, they are sodomizing and being sodomized by Satan the Devil. Satan is a liar that comes as who? An angel to the decieve the very elect if possible. What does your JW altered version of the New World Translation Of The Unholy Scriptures say in it's own words that it adds or takes away from? That the angel came to ENHANCE the very elect if possible??? Or, that the Angel came to decieve the very... Christendom... if possible???

We aren't God haters. Come on, Brad CF. That's a cheap shot. So now you're bailing out of this thread. Hit and run anyone? Jehovah God is true. His elders and ministerial servents have to quit humping little girls and boys, fix their stupid "false accusation policy", take some Psychology training, genuinely surrender to God and get things right. They are the ones that are God Haters and love their mouths, privates and glands instead and that is totally SATANIC. ABSOLUTELY AND POSITIVELY SATANIC. GRAB A PAIR AND KICK THE "WATCHTOWER/ CROTCHTOWER" IN THEIRS. Say to them, "Hey men! What's more important here???--- the Bible or the privates of little boys and girls???!!!"

Think about that one. Think about it when you see a little girl, with a skirt after a Meeting, sit on the lap of some JW elder as he bounces her up and down on his knee while getting a hard on. Think about it.


Wisconsin

[edit on 6-7-2006 by Wisconsin]