Jehovah's Witnesses believe UN will ban Religion

We're cool, P. I'm going to question EVERYTHING until there's nothing left to question. I can accept ANYTHING, but in this world I don't want to fall for it, either.

Originally posted by smallpeeps

No Interpid they know they will never reach Asia. They don't care and they don't question that fact. It's a giant logical hole by which their lie is exposed. They will never give a "witness to all the nations" and so their doorknocking is a waste of time except to trap weak persons. I guess even tho they kicked you out, you still feel that their doorknocking is a good work and to be commended?

Dude, they are already in Asia. Where do you get your info from?

They didn't kick me out, I left volluntarily.

BTW You never replied to that other thread where you stupidly denied the JW molestation charges and then I provided you video proof of those charges and you had no response. How cruel that sort of behavior is, for those who know the truth oif what goes on. I'm sure you will similarly abandon this thread when the topic goes in thast direction also.

I'm not going anywhere dude. Look at my above post to Donni. Does that look like I'm denying any, other than ignorance.

Hello? These people above are ALL EX JWS. I am speaking of the person who comes to this thread and denies the pain of others, as you yourself have done in other threads. Do you deny it? .

See above.

A REJECTION OF THE-- You really have not been listening have you? People kill themselves because the JW chruich is a hellhole of control and power games. JW KIDS kill themselves and I have observed the BONECHILLING cold with which the families are treated.

That's not the point you were making in your last post but it's good to know where you're coming from. Finally nice to see you agenda keyboard warrior. BTW, I'm an "ex" JW so don't go blaming them for my words.

Secondly, are you saying that only JW kids kill themselves? I'd wager that the suicide rate amongst Witnesses is lower than any other group. Oh, they are cold towards each other. Maybe an icolated case here and there but hardly the norm. It's the same as blaming all the American military for the rapes in Iraq when it was just a very small group.

A JW who kills themselves is scared, desperate and needs help. Their church ensures A: that they will not get this help, and B: that the family better shut up if they want their child's funeral in the Kingdom Hall.

You really aren't listening are you? ANY JW that commits suicide will not have the funeral in the KH. Nice to see that your ridiculous agruements falling like a House of Cards.

That's not the point you were making in your last post but it's good to know where you're coming from.

I know a mother who dragged her kid to meeting only to eventually find him suicided, hanging in his closet by his JW necktie. He was no older than 13. This sort of thing goes on quite often. I would simply love to discuss this topic at length so please do encourage me in this direction so I can type more.

JW necktie? They don't wear uniforms man. Keep this stuff up, it shows where you're coming from.

Sorry you feel sinful in regard to #3, "dude". I don't feel sinful, and the fact that you got kicked out and still are nursing your own sinfulness, is sad, IMO. But hey, whatever gets you through the day, eh? Having been shunned and kicked out of the JW cult, I'm sure you tried to survive like anyone else would who's experienced that. If sinfulness is a thing you need to hold onto, then go for it.

My god, we have the second coming of Christ, right here at ATS. We better get an ATSNN Alert going. We'll entitle it, "A Man without Sin".

What part of I left volluntarily don't you understand?

Okaaaay. Did you just feel like posting or did you actually have an argument to offer?

I was wondering the same about you until I figured out you just have a hatefilled agenda, without facts that can stand scutiny.

You are ignorant regarding the Watchtower Intrepid, as I have said to you before. You have cruelly denied the molestation issue in other threads and in so doing you continue to allow people like this to be hurt. Face up to your actions please.

I denied that molestation happened? I think if you look at my last post you will see that I did no such thing but believe what you want man. Everyone else can see the dirrection of this thread even if you can't.

It will be a pleasure to continue to discuss this if you like. I can go all day on this topic, and I haven't even stepped over to my reference library yet.

Dude, if your refence library is anything like the facts you've posted so far, knock youself out, this is the place for denying ignorance.

Edit: Fixed BB code.

[edit on 2-7-2006 by intrepid]

Originally posted by MauiStacey
As for the guy that attacked me, he had mental problems. It had nothing at all to do with him being a JW.

That's good to know. I appreciate this post very much, MauiStacey.

Every religion can be attacked. I have studied many religions and in my personal opinion the JW's are the closest to the truth.

I am not sure any of us can be certain of truth, because the nature of life is that truth eludes us. To say you have found "The Truth" is really to accept someone else's truth. The issue of salvation is a personal one, not a collective one. The JW faith does not grasp that.


How can a religion that says Jesus' Dad will come kill all non-JWs, be the correct and right one. It's utterly impossible that a compassionate God would create an all-or-nothing scenario for his children. I think I can assume you agree with me that it's not unfair to call ourselves God's children since we're said to be made in His (YHWH) or Their (elohim) image?

Also, maybe we can discuss the possibility for corruption within the UN itself? And also the possible liklihood that both the United Nations, and the Billion-Dollar Watchower Bookmaking/Bookpeddling Corporation may, perhaps, just maybe, might have handshakes and agreements with one another, at the top?

We are driven toward "Armageddon". Just as Kissenger said we would be. And he said the "United Nations" would be our savior. He said:

quotes.liberty-tree.ca...

"Today Americans would be outraged if UN troops entered Los Angeles to restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told there was an outside threat from beyond whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead with world leaders to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well being granted to them by their world government."

Henry Kissinger Addressing the Bilderbergers meeting Evian France May 21 1992.

Maybe this whole Armageddon thing is actually just a ruse, meant to make the insanest of ideas, appear sane?

Is it sane to be longing for the whole world except yourself, to be destroyed? Is that the sort of thinking we would like to pursue?

I understand what you are saying about the JW's being the only ones who will be saved. I believe in most of what the JW's teach. Like you just said. I always had a very hard time with that and a few other things. It was very hard for me to accept that they would be the only ones saved. There are many good people out there with good hearts and good intentions and I think God knows that.

I am not a practicing one. I'm still searching because I think that religion is much deeper and profound than we are being taught. I pray every day for Him to show me guidance and help me find what it is my spirit is looking for.

My post was really to defend that most JW's are wonderful people. I'm not that versed on the UN situation, but I think Intrepid is doing a good job debating.

Originally posted by intrepid
Dude, they are already in Asia. Where do you get your info from?

They are sparsely peppered through asia, and growing slightly in Japan. A matter of mere thousand persons cannot ever "witness" to Asia. They look like any other missionary and this means God (their God) doesn't give two farts about those people. I always hated this truth and no elder would ever address it. They'd say, "Well, Jehovah will sort all that out for us." ...What do you have to say about it?

They didn't kick me out, I left volluntarily.

Here is the ATS thread in question, (since you sure as hell are not gonna search for it) where we discussed this church:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Intrepid [posted on 5-3-2005 at 04:44 PM (post id: 1241587)]:

"Well, I read what you editted in Peeps and I'd have to say thet it probably tripe. The Witnesses don't "excommunicate" people, that's a Catholic process, they "disfellowship". I should know, I've been disfellowshiped for smoking, which is legal."

So you got kicked out (disfellowshipped/excommunicated) but you somehow also had a choice? You perhaps volunteered which buttcheek they could kick you on?

Finally nice to see you agenda keyboard warrior.

Everyone has an agenda, Intrepid, and you know mine already.

Secondly, are you saying that only JW kids kill themselves? I'd wager that the suicide rate amongst Witnesses is lower than any other group.

Well, that's kinda like studying the suicide rate in the soviet union. See, if there's no publishing of the correct numbers, then we cannot know. As an EX-JW myself, it's a very key question. Would you care to help me find out the truth in those numbers? Maybe we can write a letter openly to the Watchtower Society right here? We'll ask them to let us know the ages of suicides in their church for the last few years.

They track every piece of data regarding each JW, so they'll have all secret data on sex "sins", their occupation, hourly witnessing work, etc. It'll be no problem for them to share the suicide figures, I'm sure.

Wake up man.

My god, we have the second coming of Christ, right here at ATS. We better get an ATSNN Alert going. We'll entitle it, "A Man without Sin".

If we are created in God's image, then we do not "sin" against him. Instead, we learn from our mistakes through rebirth and reincarnation. Sin is a concept made up by churches who want control --via money or mind.

If we reverse the JW coin and assume each human is in God's likeness, then sin becomes irrelevant because gods do what they want. BUT to grow spiritually means to eventually live a Christ-like life by assuming full responsibility for each action. The rule of karma and rebirth is the missing piece which the JW church hates, as I have said in this thread.

What part of I left volluntarily don't you understand?

The part where you said you got kicked out. That's the part I didn't understand.

I denied that molestation happened? I think if you look at my last post you will see that I did no such thing but believe what you want man. Everyone else can see the dirrection of this thread even if you can't.

...from the aformentioned thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Intrepid: I have no doubt that a JW found to have molested would be thrown out, just like that.

smallpeeps: Not true. In fact, the Witnesses have a policy that says that ONLY an accusation brought by "TWO witnesses" is valid. Picture this: A child says to their parent, "Brother Jones touched me." and yet when this man is confronted, there is only one witness against him, a single child. The JW elders will uniformly shrug their shoulders and say, "We can't do anything with just one witness to the event. " When the parent complains, they say, "Leave it in Jehovah's hands." and if the parent continues to voice their concern, they will be threatened or expelled because thy are disrespecting 'God's organization'. I have seen this happen with my own eyes. Please do not try to downplay the sufferings of others when you don't know the facts.

Here's where we left off before. Let's just pick up there.

The link to the video (Connie Chung Interview with JW survivors) is available here. The transcript can be read here: www.watchtowernews.org...

this is the place for denying ignorance.

What is ignorant, is to defend a simplistic, childish, doorknocking cult which consumes people at their doorstep in a weakened state. All in the name of corporate religious control.

What's ignorant, is the literature they "publish" to the world. Have you read it, Intrepid? Can I post some here or will that be a copyright violation? [I cannot wait for this part.]



[edit on 2-7-2006 by smallpeeps]

Originally posted by smallpeeps

They are sparsely peppered through asia, and growing slightly in Japan. A matter of mere thousand persons cannot ever "witness" to Asia. They look like any other missionary and this means God (their God) doesn't give two farts about those people. I always hated this truth and no elder would ever address it. They'd say, "Well, Jehovah will sort all that out for us." ...What do you have to say about it?

I'd have to say that you've changed you tune, ONCE AGAIN, because your arguement holds no water. Remember, you said they weren't in Asia, now you've come back with this.

Here is the ATS thread in question, (since you sure as hell are not gonna search for it) where we discussed this church:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Intrepid [posted on 5-3-2005 at 04:44 PM (post id: 1241587)]:

"Well, I read what you editted in Peeps and I'd have to say thet it probably tripe. The Witnesses don't "excommunicate" people, that's a Catholic process, they "disfellowship". I should know, I've been disfellowshiped for smoking, which is legal."

So you got kicked out (disfellowshipped/excommunicated) but you somehow also had a choice? You perhaps volunteered which buttcheek they could kick you on?

Out of context dude, I was showing the difference between "excomunication" and "disfellowshiping". They actually spent quite a bit of time on me before they made MY choice official.

Everyone has an agenda, Intrepid, and you know mine already.

Yes, that much is clear but I personally wouldn't mind if you used facts and not the twisting of words, which is where we are coming to now.

Well, that's kinda like studying the suicide rate in the soviet union. See, if there's no publishing of the correct numbers, then we cannot know. As an EX-JW myself, it's a very key question. Would you care to help me find out the truth in those numbers? Maybe we can write a letter openly to the Watchtower Society right here? We'll ask them to let us know the ages of suicides in their church for the last few years.

So NOW you're saying you don't know the suicide rate of JW's. Before it seemed that you were accusing the entire religion of pushing kids to suicide. Tell you what, I'll take you up on that offer, I only live 10 minutes from Bethal. See what I can find out. Will you take my word for it or do I need it in writing?

They track every piece of data regarding each JW, so they'll have all secret data on sex "sins", their occupation, hourly witnessing work, etc. It'll be no problem for them to share the suicide figures, I'm sure.

Damn, they must be better than the FBI then, the G-men wouldn't be able to do that and they're proffesionals. Bush should look into this religion to help out on Homeland Security.

Wake up man.

Back at you dude.

If we are created in God's image, then we do not "sin" against him. Instead, we learn from our mistakes through rebirth and reincarnation. Sin is a concept made up by churches who want control --via money or mind.

I guess Christ died for no reason then. Damn, you really gotta hate that hindsight, even if you are Omnicient and Omnipotent.

If we reverse the JW coin and assume each human is in God's likeness, then sin becomes irrelevant because gods do what they want. BUT to grow spiritually means to eventually live a Christ-like life by assuming full responsibility for each action. The rule of karma and rebirth is the missing piece which the JW church hates, as I have said in this thread.

Sin isn't irrelevant, it's the basis of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelations. The rest I agree with.

The part where you said you got kicked out. That's the part I didn't understand.

Asked and answered counsellor.

...from the aformentioned thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Intrepid: I have no doubt that a JW found to have molested would be thrown out, just like that.

smallpeeps: Not true. In fact, the Witnesses have a policy that says that ONLY an accusation brought by "TWO witnesses" is valid. Picture this: A child says to their parent, "Brother Jones touched me." and yet when this man is confronted, there is only one witness against him, a single child. The JW elders will uniformly shrug their shoulders and say, "We can't do anything with just one witness to the event. " When the parent complains, they say, "Leave it in Jehovah's hands." and if the parent continues to voice their concern, they will be threatened or expelled because thy are disrespecting 'God's organization'. I have seen this happen with my own eyes. Please do not try to downplay the sufferings of others when you don't know the facts.

Here's where we left off before. Let's just pick up there.

Yes let's. I'm glad you found this thread, I never would have, do you know how many threads I'm involved with on any day? I pointed out earlier in this thread that stuff happens, I will give you the fact that it isn't ALWAYS dealt with quickly but the last part is bollocks, AND if it did happen it would only speed on the removal of said elder, like it did in my last congregation.

So where did I say that molestation doesn't happen. Nice twisting of word mate. I never said that there OR here. Thanks for the VINDICATION, even though I didn't need it.

What's ignorant, is the literature they "publish" to the world. Have you read it, Intrepid? Can I post some here or will that be a copyright violation? [I cannot wait for this part.]



[edit on 2-7-2006 by smallpeeps]

You know what, I have no idea if it is a violation.

Originally posted by intrepid in this very thread:

Just in case you are wondering, I was raised JW but may get some things wrong as it has been over 20 years since practicing. Not wrong about this post though. I'll let you know when it's unclear to me.

[...]

That fact about the child-molesters is laughable. They will disfellowship someone for smoking, personal experience, but will tolllerate abuse? Not coming to their defence but what you posted was totally wrong. On second thought, maybe I did come to their defence.

[...]

Donni
Very sorry to hear about you're experience, believe me I understand and you have my sympathy. I was in a congregation that was run as a privite family church. Things have gotten better there since. I was back home last week and found out that all of the elders except for one has been removed, with one being disfellowshiped. Such hypocracy, but it WAS found out and removed. I left for the same reason, I REFUSED to be a hypocrite. I couldn't live the strict lifestyle but wouldn't blemish the Truth with my actions.

Intrepid, here in your response to Donni, you betray your own agenda, which is to defend this church which you still consider yourself a member of (idealogically). Then in this same thread you call me names for the very same agenda-specific behavior. Pay attention to yourself.

If you will defend this church, then please, do so. Do not ASK to be sent next door to Watchtower Headquarters and ask to see the numbers of suicides, JUST GO DO IT. But as we can see, your agenda involves coverup whereas my agenda involves exposure, and so you will not provide any figures whatsoever. If I lived as close as you do, I'd do a podcast interview and really deny ignorance-factories like the Watchtower.

What I will do, is to post a link to factual discussion of a recent JW suicide and the responses of verified humans. Good luck getting the Watchtower to even discuss this thread or what many other like it, imply:

Another JW Suicide

Originally posted by intrepid
I'd have to say that you've changed you tune, ONCE AGAIN, because your arguement holds no water. Remember, you said they weren't in Asia, now you've come back with this.

And I'd have to say that you are failing to grasp my point, which has been consistent through this thread: Their so-called global work is really a work that applies only to the Western world, and not to Asia, except for the cameras.

Out of context dude, I was showing the difference between "excomunication" and "disfellowshiping". They actually spent quite a bit of time on me before they made MY choice official.

What?! If they were following the "Pay Attention" book mentioned before and hidden by the Watchtower, then smoking is a simple matter. If you are unrepentant you must be kicked out. Anyway, since you admit the whole congregation was scrapped (?) then what is your point? It only serves to show how flimsy the Church's controls are when their pastors/elders must kick people out for petty "crimes against Jehovah".

So NOW you're saying you don't know the suicide rate of JW's. Before it seemed that you were accusing the entire religion of pushing kids to suicide. Tell you what, I'll take you up on that offer, I only live 10 minutes from Bethal. See what I can find out. Will you take my word for it or do I need it in writing?

What I said was that they will not show you those numbers. They are kept in a nebulous vault somewhere.

Damn, they must be better than the FBI then, the G-men wouldn't be able to do that and they're proffesionals. Bush should look into this religion to help out on Homeland Security.

You have finally posted something useful to this thread. Well done.

I guess Christ died for no reason then. Damn, you really gotta hate that hindsight, even if you are Omnicient and Omnipotent.

Well, as a near-JW, you are ignorant of global religion and see the Jesus story as the only path. We can discuss this premise if you want, but you've obviously avoided the dozen other threads where I've discussed this topic so why would you want to engage now?

Sin isn't irrelevant, it's the basis of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelations. The rest I agree with.

The book is called "A Revelation", not "Revelations". There was only one revelation given to John, and it's contents are highly suspect.

I pointed out earlier in this thread that stuff happens, I will give you the fact that it isn't ALWAYS dealt with quickly but the last part is bollocks, AND if it did happen it would only speed on the removal of said elder, like it did in my last congregation.

You were wrong then and you are wrong now. Here's just one recent example:

Watchtower Sued for Covering Up Molestor

More here:

www.silentlambs.org...
www.silentlambs.org...
www.watchtowernews.org...

What's ignorant, is the literature they "publish" to the world. Have you read it, Intrepid? Can I post some here or will that be a copyright violation? [I cannot wait for this part.]

You know what, I have no idea if it is a violation.

Yes, I am not surprised you have no idea about the church you support. In fact they are suing websites who post their material, in spite of American "fair use" copyright laws.

Pasting JW stuff here might cause an interesting Cassiopeans-type situation for ATS. I'll hold off until you do some actual research on their recent lawsuit in which passages from the very book mentioned earlier in this thread "Pay Attention to Yourselves and to Your Teaching" was posted online and the WT brought their legal weight to bear. This book is what tells Elders how to kick people out, as mentioned before.



[edit on 2-7-2006 by smallpeeps]

Originally posted by smallpeeps

Originally posted by intrepid in this very thread:
Donni
Very sorry to hear about you're experience, believe me I understand and you have my sympathy. I was in a congregation that was run as a privite family church. Things have gotten better there since. I was back home last week and found out that all of the elders except for one has been removed, with one being disfellowshiped. Such hypocracy, but it WAS found out and removed. I left for the same reason, I REFUSED to be a hypocrite. I couldn't live the strict lifestyle but wouldn't blemish the Truth with my actions.

Intrepid, here in your response to Donni, you betray your own agenda, which is to defend this church which you still consider yourself a member of (idealogically). Then in this same thread you call me names for the very same agenda-specific behavior. Pay attention to yourself.

You must be getting VERY tired of making my points for me. What you bolded there shows that the elders were removed.

"I couldn't live the strict lifestyle but wouldn't blemish the Truth with my actions."

Dude, that was my motivation 20 YEARS AGO. I've said what my motivation is today, denying ignorance. And it's neck deep here.

If you will defend this church, then please, do so. Do not ASK to be sent next door to Watchtower Headquarters and ask to see the numbers of suicides, JUST GO DO IT. But as we can see, your agenda involves coverup whereas my agenda involves exposure, and so you will not provide any figures whatsoever. If I lived as close as you do, I'd do a podcast interview and really deny ignorance-factories like the Watchtower.

C'mon man, this was your idea and I've shown what my motivation is. I'm covering up what? I know what you're exposing though.

What I will do, is to post a link to factual discussion of a recent JW suicide and the responses of verified humans. Good luck getting the Watchtower to even discuss this thread or what many other like it, imply:

Another JW Suicide

A blog? I'm not saying it didn't happen but anyone can write anything on the internet. Remember, just today you wrote that I said molestation didn't happen and then YOU pointed out that I didn't say that.

Originally posted by intrepid
I'd have to say that you've changed you tune, ONCE AGAIN, because your arguement holds no water. Remember, you said they weren't in Asia, now you've come back with this.

And I'd have to say that you are failing to grasp my point, which has been consistent throough this thread: Their so-called global work is really a work that applies only to the Western world, and not to Asia, except for the cameras.

No, you are failing to grasp MY point, that you change your tune when logic shoots it down. BTW, when do the JW's seek out cameras, the only time I see them on the news is for them to get dissed for one reason or another. Going to change your tune on this one too?

What?! If they were following the "Pay Attention" book mentioned before and hidden by the Watchtower, then smoking is a simple matter. If you are unrepentant you must be kicked out. Anyway, since you admit the whole congregation was scrapped (?) then what is your point? It only serves to show how flimsy the Church's controls are when their pastors/elders must kick people out for petty "crimes against Jehovah".

OMG, :bnghd: Again, where did I say the congregation was "scrapped"? I said the elders were removed. That's quite a leap by any standards.

So NOW you're saying you don't know the suicide rate of JW's. Before it seemed that you were accusing the entire religion of pushing kids to suicide. Tell you what, I'll take you up on that offer, I only live 10 minutes from Bethal. See what I can find out. Will you take my word for it or do I need it in writing?

What I said was that they will not show you those numbers. They are kept in a nebulous vault somewhere.

Whatever, it was your idea and you're poo-pooing it? This reminds me of the Monty Python routine, "this isn't an arguement", "yes it is".

Damn, they must be better than the FBI then, the G-men wouldn't be able to do that and they're proffesionals. Bush should look into this religion to help out on Homeland Security.

You have finally posted something useful to this thread. Well done.

Now I KNOW you're just pulling my chain

I guess Christ died for no reason then. Damn, you really gotta hate that hindsight, even if you are Omnicient and Omnipotent.

Well, as a near-JW, you are ignorant of global religion and see the Jesus story as the only path. We can discuss this premise if you want, but you've obviously avoided the dozen other threads where I've discussed this topic so why would you want to engage now?

That doesn't answer my post. "Why do I want to engage now?" Basically I have the time now.

Sin isn't irrelevant, it's the basis of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelations. The rest I agree with.

The book is called "A Revelation", not "Revelations". There was only one revelation given to John, and it's contents are highly suspect.

I'm sure that is so in every translation.

You were wrong then and you are wrong now. Here's just one recent example:

Watchtower Sued for Covering Up Molestor

More here:

www.silentlambs.org...
www.silentlambs.org...
www.watchtowernews.org...

I'm not going to play the "bias" card, which I could from scanning those 2 sites but let's work from logic instead. Why isn't this on the news then? It's not like the JW's have the political clout to cover-up ALL of these crimes.

You know what, I have no idea if it is a violation.

Yes, I am not surprised you have no idea about the church you support. In fact they are suing websites who post their material, in spite of American "fair use" copyright laws.

Pasting JW stuff here might cause an interesting Cassiopeans-type situation for ATS. I'll hold off until you do some actual research on their recent lawsuit in which passages from the very book mentioned earlier in this thread "Pay Attention to Yourselves and to Your Teaching" was posted online and the WT brought their legal weight to bear. This book is what tells Elders how to kick people out, as mentioned before.

Link please, your credibility is running on fumes. I'm giving you a chance to gain some back. Got your Goolge ready?

Originally posted by intrepid
You must be getting VERY tired of making my points for me. What you bolded there shows that the elders were removed.

[...]

where did I say the congregation was "scrapped"? I said the elders were removed. That's quite a leap by any standards.

If the elders are removed, then that's indicative of an entire BODY that needed to be 'killed'. You know of course that the term 'body' in reference to the Elders is not accidental. The eight-twelve or so Elders in each Kingdom Hall enforce the Watchtower laws in the congregation. If the whole body (except for one) needed to be removed, that indicates corruption at the highest levels of that particular parish of the JW church body.

We're talking about a church that proposes multitudinous laws for all mankind --on penalty of Death from Their God. No thanks. I thought you loved freedom, Intrepid? You see these men being removed as a good thing, but clearly in a quiet, secretive cult like this, this should be indicative of a larger problem. Do you get the picture? If they were removed, it was because the WTBT Society had no choice, not because they wanted justice. The Corporation always wants everything quiet. BTW, why not share some details about that congregation shut-down? I heard of a few congregations that got disbanded and entire elder bodies that were found to be corrupt but it's so hard to connect the dots when the Watchtower keeps its own members in the dark, you know?

C'mon man, this was your idea and I've shown what my motivation is. I'm covering up what? I know what you're exposing though.

[...]

Whatever, it was your idea and you're poo-pooing it?

It wasn't an 'idea'. I am describing to you (and to the audience) how absurd it is to ask for data which A: cannot be obtained from the people who are supposed to "care" about those dead suicide victims, and B: could be falsified anyway to protect the Corporation.

Do you get it? They control every piece of information on their members' lives.

A blog? I'm not saying it didn't happen but anyone can write anything on the internet. Remember, just today you wrote that I said molestation didn't happen and then YOU pointed out that I didn't say that.

Not a blog, but a long-established forum not so unlike ATS. A network of ex-JWs who are real people. You again, just like in the other thread, have no desire to discuss the evidence.

when do the JW's seek out cameras, the only time I see them on the news is for them to get dissed for one reason or another. Going to change your tune on this one too?

Intrepid, what you fail to grasp is that a person's argument is not always made in one post. I am making my point in a sequence, just like I did in the other thread which you fled from.

What I meant above is that they seek out their OWN cameras, because they don't want global press, but it is ESSENTIAL that the INTERNAL propaganda be keenly designed and efficiently pumped into the heads of the members.

Here is an example of that internal propaganda from the same internet forum. Apparently there is a real money-push in the Watchtower these days. Notice how the member of the below linked forum is describing somehting nobody would know if they didn't attend the meetings every week? The cameras I'm talking about are for the victims of the Watchtower ie the rank and file members. None of these misses the CO's visit because the Circuit Overseer is the one who accomplishes the primary mind-control work of the Corporation:

Circuit Overseers Are On a Pledge Drive

Interviews and footage focus on South America, Africa and Eastern Europe. Interesting tidbits include:

- African JW's singing Kingdom Melodies while they work
- Time-lapse video of construction
- Visiting Society building coordinators sharing time in the ministry as well
- African JW's breaking rocks to make brick mortar
- Before and after pictures
- Interviews with local government officials
- East European interview describing freezing conditions in their old hall
- A classic scene where chickens come running out of an old open-air hall

Interspersed through the video is references to financial contributions. A scene is dedicated to the process of Society approval, showing how the congregation must pass a resolution to contribute a fixed sum to the project every month. While Advances viewers shrink in shame, the camera focuses on black hands stuffing a rustic contribution box.

This person adds his commentary at the end, but the imagery is clear. And isn't it great how the people fund their own brainwashing so happily? Again, to make the point more clear for you: They promote the idea of a global church (to their members) while the people of Earth see the JWs as just another missionary church.

Getting back on topic, I wonder if the Watchtower's long association with the UN (as I refrenced in this thread) might have clued them in to what people REALLY need in Africa? I'm just a dumb ex-JW but I am sure they do not need more Kingdom Halls or other missionaries. They've had enough of that.

Damn, they must be better than the FBI then, the G-men wouldn't be able to do that and they're proffesionals. Bush should look into this religion to help out on Homeland Security.

You have finally posted something useful to this thread. Well done.

Now I KNOW you're just pulling my chain

No, I think it is incredibly naive to think that the JW church is not connected with the PTB at higher levels. The rank-and-file members need not know anything about it, so efficient and pervasive is the mind-control which they experience.

I already said I knew of one member of the Witness Protection Program who was hidden in the J-Dub church. Also they are the only group with carte blanche to go to everyone's front door without notice. Perfect cover under which to have agents operate. You are a Moderator of a conspiracy site so please be careful when making fun of conspiracy thought, okay?

I'm not going to play the "bias" card, which I could from scanning those 2 sites but let's work from logic instead. Why isn't this on the news then? It's not like the JW's have the political clout to cover-up ALL of these crimes.

You are saying that since it's not on the news, it's not factual? What kind of argument is that? It's logical to dismiss websites and forums of hundreds of ex-JWs and their personal stories?

Link please, your credibility is running on fumes. I'm giving you a chance to gain some back. Got your Goolge ready?

I am happy to fire up Google to stop child-wrecking corporate-"religions". Apparently you can't be bothered, eh? Here's the original press release:

www.theopenpress.com...

(OPENPRESS) March 17, 2006 -- This website, www.davidgladden.com... has existed for several years providing quotes and supplemental scans of publications and secret internal documents to demonstrate the dubious and morally questionable activities of the Watchtower Society.

For several years the Watchtower Society never took issue with the quotes and scans; however something new was recently added to the web site. The owner of the site posted an internal document from within Watchtower Society that details how they run their branch operations around the world, who writes their anonymous publications, how they control and transfer finances between countries, deal with decent in the organization, and many other revealing topics such as how they hide information in order to avoid liability. In addition to this a standards manual that describes how they write their publications was also make public.

Interpid. You are only going to upset JWs by encouraging me. They don't want any of this talked about, so why upset the very church you still admire so much?


[edit on 2-7-2006 by smallpeeps]

I wish not to disrupt your dialog with Intepid...but I have to interject that there is no such thing as a cult when it comes to JW's.

They have congregations just as any other religious group. I personally find it offensive when people refer to them as such. There are no secret meetings or no secret meanings and it insulting when people refer to them as such. They are like any other Christian religion.

They are normal, wonderful, kind loving people who wish to spread the word of God.
There is nothing cultish about them. Nothing.

Originally posted by MauiStacey
There is nothing cultish about them. Nothing.

Thanks Stacey. My question would be, do you consider these to be cult traits:

- Making the members work a lot (no time for living/thinking)
- Telling the members "your family will not understand your new life"
- punishing doctrinal disobedience and petty infractions with shunning

...I'd like to quote a great article here from a Christian doctor which is obviously not just about JWs but cults in general:

"What to do if Your Child Joins a Cult"

Warning signs: If your child has joined a church that now has taken up all his time. That he or she has just informed you that he wants to move out from your home and move in with the members. If he has given up his goals and the aspirations he had to further his education very quickly after joining. Or he dropped the sports that he has always practised. If he starts speaking different lingo and does not share what it means or says. Or he says you won’t understand why he is doing these new things. He starts to dress differently and loses interest quickly in his oldest friends. Anytime there is a very quick change in personality and lifestyle influenced by the new group they are attending and they cannot explain or, share the reasons. These are all warning signs that cult like changes have begun. Everyone should be able to give rational explanations for change especially if it is the Lord’s doing.

If one is already faced with his child joining there are some basic guidelines to follow. The first thing one need to do is avoid pushing one to make a decision to leave. The reason for this is that they are probably being told this will happen from their parents and friend’s, so they look upon this as Satan attacking. So one needs to be as patient and understanding as possible even if they know it is wrong.

[...]

I realise that not all families had an optimum situation and divorce may have transpired as well as other unique situations. This is why there is no set method for success; all situations are not the same. But love is and it never fails and there is nothing that can interfere with family that has unconditional love.

[...]

They are usually taught that to leave the group is to leave God. This is where friends and loved ones need to be there for their child no matter what has taken place or how long it has been. If you are not there with open arms they see no where else to go and will stay.

The hardest time is the transition period, one need to constantly support them or they will run back to the group. It’s like swimming through long and choppy seas. But when someone has made it to shore safely and is welcomed, the healing process can begin. God can change the circumstances and often times the family will grow closer together with one another and have a greater trust and honesty in their relationships after going through this turmoil together.

Dr Akpogena resides in Port Harcourt.

Most of the behavior described above is typical of JWs who are new. I could go on but I guess the best thing to do is to ask you how you would define a cult. If you feel comfortable answering, I think your answer will be interesting.


[edit on 2-7-2006 by smallpeeps]

Originally posted by smallpeeps

Originally posted by Brad_cf
personally i find it true how the love apostates had at first turns into an even greater hate

You are so deluded it's sad, brad.

See, when the JW's grab a weak person at the door, that new member doesn't have much information in their heads. The JWs say they are looking for "those conscious of their spiritual need" but really they are looking for "those weak enough to fall for our cult techniques".

That's why when these people eventually wake up and leave the JWs, they look back at what the Watchtower is doing (taking weak people and making them weaker) and they feel a hatred for the whole door-to-door JW machinery. You can't feel that hatred because you are still inside the machinery, unable to comprehend reality. We can see here how cold and inhumane you are toward those who have spoken of person attempted rape and other trauma. So typical of JW drones whose hearts are obediently frozen. How many friends have you lost to Satan's world? Have you ever had a JW associate kill themselves? Was their funeral held inside the Kingdom Hall?

So it's not any fulfillment of scripture when people hate your church. It's not God's prophecy being fulfilled when people hate you because any cult member is going to see their own persecution complex fulfilled in this way, as I typed earlier. See, David Koresh's followers felt just like you, when the bulldozers rolled up to their compound. They thought it was armageddon, and that their persecution was proof of Koresh's godliness.

I'm sure you still don't get it, but the truth will set you free, not make you an unfeeling, doorknocking robot.

Do you deny these facts about The Watchtower church?:

- JWs are forbidden from reading certain books or discussing them
- JWs must never interpret the bible themselves.
- JWs must never provide comfort to a "sinner", but must shun them.

...And of course as a result of the above truths:

- JWs don't get smarter
- JWs don't understand God
- JWs are violating Jesus' commandment of mercifulness

This is how I understand your religion to work, but you can correct me here if I am misunderstanding something. ...Oh BTW, did you have any comment about the proof I posted RE: the Watchtower's secret collusion with the UN? What excuse did they give you for that? Isn't it sad how the Governing Body does one thing but tells the followers to do another? As you know, Mexican JWs got tortured and killed and most American JWs didn't know a thing about what the GB was doing down there.

Anyway, I'm sure that if you preach to us here some more, that the word of God will shine through and all this idiocy can make sense. If you type here enough, they may even let you count your hours and report them. Gotta keep those hours up, right?

Excellent points.

Wisconsin

I'm sorry Small Peeps,

All I can say (as pathetic as it may sound) is that your reality is not my reality.

All I came across were wonderdu, well meaning people......


I'm sorry what happended to you. I wish, for you, you would have had my experiece.

Originally posted by MauiStacey


For those who had bad experiences, perhaps you should find another congregation or KH.

Impossible. Jw Watchtower keeps detailed progress reports on everyone- from the door toor campaigns and potential converts, to the more the baptized ones. All kingdom halls know whose who through the Watchtower. The only way a person can get a better treatment in another Hall is if they change their name, clothes, identity and start their Bible study all over again as somebody new. Seriously. Look Stacey, if you're happy there and they're happy with you, all the more power to yu'. But, if you get hurt by them, we're here for you.

Wisconsin

[edit on 3-7-2006 by Wisconsin]

If a banning does take place they can start with the JW's themselves first, then onto the Mormons.

Heck, ban all of them. Religion is just a money making gimmick anyway. IMO.

Originally posted by smallpeeps
You are so deluded it's sad, brad.

See, when the JW's grab a weak person at the door, that new member doesn't have much information in their heads. The JWs say they are looking for "those conscious of their spiritual need" but really they are looking for "those weak enough to fall for our cult techniques".

ok , im a JW so i musnt be able to think for myself ? im sorry but saying it doesnt make it true . & yes , JW's prostelyise to find people with spiritual questions , to which genuine answers can be found in the bible . Jesus himself said he was sent to the weak & oppressed so if you think calling upon these people is bad then i dont know what your expecting me to say ?

That's why when these people eventually wake up and leave the JWs, they look back at what the Watchtower is doing (taking weak people and making them weaker) and they feel a hatred for the whole door-to-door JW machinery. You can't feel that hatred because you are still inside the machinery, unable to comprehend reality. We can see here how cold and inhumane you are toward those who have spoken of person attempted rape and other trauma. So typical of JW drones whose hearts are obediently frozen. How many friends have you lost to Satan's world? Have you ever had a JW associate kill themselves? Was their funeral held inside the Kingdom Hall?

yes ive had a relation kill himself . it wasnt because of religon , he had his own problems in life & turned to drugs as an escape . not every single person in the JW religon is a perfect christian , all people sin everyday & some do some serious deliberate things wrong

So it's not any fulfillment of scripture when people hate your church. It's not God's prophecy being fulfilled when people hate you because any cult member is going to see their own persecution complex fulfilled in this way, as I typed earlier. See, David Koresh's followers felt just like you, when the bulldozers rolled up to their compound. They thought it was armageddon, and that their persecution was proof of Koresh's godliness.

quite a stretch , David K was hardly operating a biblical organisation was he

I'm sure you still don't get it, but the truth will set you free, not make you an unfeeling, doorknocking robot.

but becoming a disciple of JC will , or should do , motorvate you to share the news of Gods kingdom . if the spirit is having an effect in your life , then as a christian you should be moved in some way to share this knowledge with others - its the reason & work JC came to earth to do . today that is an unfavourable topic , doing this sets you apart in your community . JW's do this freely out of love , not coersion . the meetings are training for the followers so they are able to take part but the decision to go out door to door is done by the individual .

the character limit has stopped this post from completeing

Originally posted by smallpeeps
[Do you deny these facts about The Watchtower church?:

- JWs are forbidden from reading certain books or discussing them
- JWs must never interpret the bible themselves.
- JWs must never provide comfort to a "sinner", but must shun them..

yes ,
1) you are meaning deliberate apostate writings no ? i have never been told of a specific book that i was to never read , but apostate material is warned against for obvious reasons . we want our members to grow stronger in their own relationship with jehovah - not for their faith to be weakened . easy for this to seen as mind control , but whats the purpose of it - the good of the individual is at stake when these encouragements are given out . saying nothing about apostates is what would please you more ?
2) im not moved by the spirit as the prophets were (im not sure you meant that tho)- but im encouraged as a witness to have the bible as the main thing i study . all witnesses get the same message - read the bible every day , if you think the JW religon trys to direct attention away from what the scriptures say then please stop listening to those you have conversed with - its not true

...And of course as a result of the above truths:
- JWs don't get smarter
- JWs don't understand God
- JWs are violating Jesus' commandment of mercifulness.

well JWs who do try to learn more from the bible (& its the main encouragement you recieve from week to week) do get to "know" the bible better - how your meaning "smarter" tho probably isnt the same thing here . i dont see how a person who is encouraged to study the bible can remain aloof from Jehovah like your claimimg . he knows our individual heart conditions , the thing that can keep a person seperate from god is the same thing , the heart condition . if your genuinly wanting to know him & you study the bible his personality & what he is like gets opened to you . & those are the exact same things JWs reccomend to all people , & especially to one another . reading the bible , studying it with an open heart to God

This is how I understand your religion to work, but you can correct me here if I am misunderstanding something..

from what i have read you type , i feel you are , in some ways drastically

...Oh BTW, did you have any comment about the proof I posted RE: the Watchtower's secret collusion with the UN? What excuse did they give you for that? Isn't it sad how the Governing Body does one thing but tells the followers to do another? As you know, Mexican JWs got tortured and killed and most American JWs didn't know a thing about what the GB was doing down there.

what collusion ? the fax you posted showed how exactly that the WTB&TS was "colluding" with the UN ? im sorry but your hyping nothing as if it was something

Anyway, I'm sure that if you preach to us here some more, that the word of God will shine through and all this idiocy can make sense. If you type here enough, they may even let you count your hours and report them. Gotta keep those hours up, right?

discussions over the internet are not the way to spread the message from JC or his father - they go nowhere . face to face is the only way . i stumbled onto this thread looking for info on the "jews" being a religon & not a race . normally i brush off threads like these as the vindictive that they are (satan , if he is real hates all christian religons & especially those they try to preach & convert)
but why i replied , hmm i dunno something struck a chord i guess . i want to say mis-infomation & although there is a little bit of that it wasnt the reason
i have to end on saying its safe to say yo have been given your chance to make up an opinion on the JW religon - if you feel we dont say the truth about the bible then fine , we move on to others who havent had the opportunity . yes even across asia (even china)

Originally posted by MauiStacey
I understand what you are saying about the JW's being the only ones who will be saved.

people who have had the chance to learn about Jehovah , & rejected that , will not be kept alive at armageddon

millions & millions have lived & died without coming to know about JC or his Father , but what kind of person every single one of them was , is knowen to Jehovah

JC said the path to eternall life was narrow (& for our sinfull fleash difficult to travel)- some JWs becuase of their heart condition may not be included , the person who will be giving salvation is Jehovah - the record of all people on earth is given a literall image in the book of life

Jehovahs Witnesses are adament that God is using them to accomplish the preaching work (if no human bothered too , the bible says he would make the stones cry it out)

when it comes & who will be included , theres no exact way to say for sure . becoming a member of Jehovahs Witnesses & studying the bible whould be a good place to start : )

Originally posted by MauiStacey

They are like any other Christian religion.
They are normal, wonderful, kind loving people who wish to spread the word of God.
There is nothing cultish about them. Nothing.

With all do respect, why don't you become a JW and hang around there for 2 or 3 years then. See what happens?

Wisconsin

Originally posted by MauiStacey
All I can say (as pathetic as it may sound) is that your reality is not my reality.

All I came across were wonderdu, well meaning people......

I'm sorry what happended to you. I wish, for you, you would have had my experiece.

Nothing you post sounds pathetic to me. I empathize with your being raised in the Church of Watchtower. I think you have a lot to contribute to any discussion on the subject.

Nothing bad happened to me, execpt that they challenged the human intellect. The JWs told me that having knowledge is not important except reading their brainwashing books. I asked a lot of questions and never got the answers I knew were out there. They resented my questions, and I could see the discomfort in the Elders' eyes when they'd have to talk to me.

They will resent any non-conformist born into their church. It's okay tho' because most difficult or non-conformist children born to JWs will end up shunned, on drugs or dead, so the problem normally takes care of itself. I wrote a simple letter and left in good standing, after I had seen all I wanted to see.

As for the character of the JWs themselves, yes, as I have said on ATS before, they are nice people. Nice, simple people. But you really wouldn't call a JW a participating member of society, would you? They are totally ignorant of world events and politics, so what use are they? Are they a bunch of peaceful people? No, for in their hearts there is righteous hatred and lots of capped dissatisfaction. They follow the WTBTS corporation so really they are only as nice as the corporation tells them to be. This could be changed at any moment. Not that they'd become evil, but they will become colder toward humanity. Group-Superiority type thinking tends to do that.

They long for the day when they'll see birds pulling flesh from corpses. Because this wll be the culmination of Jehovah's Great Day of annihalation. Finally all non-JWs will be dead. That part of their psyche disgusts me, particularly when their minds are so well guarded against truth. To hold onto an idea as sick as Armageddon, but to reject any rational thought? That's the sign of a psycopathic religiosity when a person will stand by and watch people die.

But yes, they are well behaved citizens who pay their taxes. On the surface level, the J-Dubs are decent members of society.


------------------------------------
Anyway, on topic here are some links to the Watchtower's collaboration, sucking up to, and doublespeak about the United Nations. On one side of their mouth, they condemn the UN, while in their very magazines, they (like any good United Nations NGO) promote the UN and its charter:

www.randytv.com...

Either they think the UN is Satan's tool or they think it's not. They cannot have it both ways.