Originally posted by Gazrok

According to them, 144,000 will be saved of their faith, of course.

Unfortunately for them, according to the Bible from which they are basing this on...this number will be comprised of only VIRGIN males (having never known the touch of a woman is I believe how it is put), who also happen to be descended from the 12 tribes of Isreal (12,000 per tribe), so I fail to see the appeal of the religion to a) Women, b) Males who are not virgins. Not to mention of course, that if one fit the criteria, he certainly wouldn't be creating more little followers, lest he just hand in his ticket as a non-virgin...

Of course, I'm not sure what attraction a religion (cult) that eschews any form of celibration, and contact with others not of the same cult, has anyhow....

I'll have to try to convince those that believe that virgins will be the only ones ascending to heaven is not a correct interperatation of that verse.

Religion, as a whole, is speculated by many theologians as being represented as a woman in verse. Therefore, given that God's original command to "Be fruitful, become many, and fill the earth" as given to us in the book of Genesis still holds true today.

God is a God of logic, and therefore we must conclude logically (as His children) that His creation of a physical woman does not merit a sin for man to pay for against his admission into heaven.

How better for those to rule over mankind for them to understand ALL aspects of mankind - to rule justly over ALL of mankind's aspects. To gain entrance into heaven, man AND woman must become "one flesh" - a unity that is "blessed in heaven".

Therefore, the "defilement of women" spoken of in Revelations is interperated as a defilement from religious teachings, not of a defilement from a physical woman.

They won't make that grave mistake unless the number of religious people in the world decreases automatically. It would be the start of their downfall

Admittedly I did not read the full 19 pages of this thread but do have something to add.

I was a JW for a few years in the late 80's and what an eye opening experience that was. They are very skilled at presenting their propaganda and they gently take the focus off the Bible and make the WTS the ultimate authority.

There is so little joy among these people. Besides having to lead these "perfect" lives, survive Armageddon, clean up the mess, not sin at all during the 1.000 years or they would drop dead, and then finally survive the great battle of Gog and Magog before their "salvation" is assured. Sad.

My parting of ways with them was when my best friend in the Hall came to me crying about her husband having SEX with her 14 year old daughter, she caught that pig in the act of raping her! Of course I told her to call Child Protective Services immediately for her child's protection, prosecution of the pig, and to make sure she would not loose custody of the kids!

Not 5 hours later the "elders" came to my house and told me that I was forbidden to speak to her about this and that this matter was private and to be handled by the "elders". This man was publicly reproved.....publicly reproved only...because he had a remorseful attitude. This woman was so afraid of disobeying the elders and jeopardizing her standing in their sick religion that she actually went for that crap.

That opened up my eyes and the end was less than one month from that day. I wrote the local people and Brooklyn and told them to get my name off everything.

Not a happy religion. These poor people are living in fear and work their entire lives to avoid punishment. How sad

Originally posted by redhead57


Not 5 hours later the "elders" came to my house and told me that I was forbidden to speak to her about this and that this matter was private and to be handled by the "elders". This man was publicly reproved.....publicly reproved only...because he had a remorseful attitude. This woman was so afraid of disobeying the elders and jeopardizing her standing in their sick religion that she actually went for that crap.

Sounds like any religion to me. Catholic church, baptist churches, methodist, they all do the same thing.

All religion is sick

Originally posted by redhead57
Not a happy religion. These poor people are living in fear and work their entire lives to avoid punishment. How sad

what does any of this have to do with the UN banning religion?

Originally posted by intrepid

That fact about the child-molesters is laughable. They will disfellowship someone for smoking, personal experience, but will tolllerate abuse?
Not coming to their defence but what you posted was totally wrong. On second thought, maybe I did come to their defence.

I have personally 'witnessed' multiple cases of Witness elders and above protecting child molesters while at the same time disfellowshipping smokers, those with bad association, etc.

3 different congregations, 4 different abusers, 1 multiple abuser was an elder who's abuse was covered up for 30+ years. . .(One time he was punished, he lost his elder title for 6 months.) The accusers were all but told that to take this outside the faith would be against God. Repeatedly. . .like it was in a manual somewhere.

In the congregation I grew up in, over 50% were victims of sexual abuse, all but 3 were victims of physical abuse. Those numbers are so hard to believe that I generally don't mention them.

Later in life, I have been in contact with literally hundreds of other Witness victims with similar or worse stories. (Hundreds? That must be an exaggeration.) It isn't. Got involved with support groups. I doubt that there is a single congregation without a predator attending.

Got a Psych degree. Spent a lot of effort researching what makes a predator tick. Psychological control is a big part of it. The exact same form of psychological control that the JW system exerts on its members.

I'm not claiming any conspiracy that JW have planned to harbor predators, but, rather, that a congregation is an almost perfect hunting ground for them. Sheep to the slaughter, a powerbase that wants to handle legal matters in-house and an organization that wants to protect itself from this sort of public exposure.

So, much respect to you Intrepid, but on this point you analysis is incorrect.

Originally posted by zefiro
I have personally 'witnessed' multiple cases of Witness elders and above protecting child molesters ......

a considerable claim considering that something that serious would never be a public case to the congregation so as to protect the victims and the accused should the accusation not be true.

not only did you "witness" this once, but multiple times.

3 different congregations, 4 different abusers, 1 multiple abuser was an elder who's abuse was covered up for 30+ years. . .(One time he was punished, he lost his elder title for 6 months.) The accusers were all but told that to take this outside the faith would be against God. Repeatedly. . .like it was in a manual somewhere.

wow, 3 congregations! you must be unlucky. ive been to 2 and havent seen any cases.

i heard of one, and they called the police and he was judged by the courts. in fact the elder who told me about it says that they are suppose to call the police.

In the congregation I grew up in, over 50% were victims of sexual abuse, all but 3 were victims of physical abuse. Those numbers are so hard to believe that I generally don't mention them.

wow, thats like an orgy of sexual abuse. thats almost worse than the catholics.

I'm not claiming any conspiracy that JW have planned to harbor predators,

sounds like you are.

I too have seen women beaten and the elders tell her to submit to her husband and he would not be so angry, children covered with bruises and told that they must submit to their parents and that punishment is good for them. It has been many years since I left that group but did see a couple of news articles about this very topic around 5 years after I left. I do hope they have started to be more responsible, but I really doubt that.

If you want to work for your salvation now by pioneering, through the time of the tribulation, make it through Armageddon, don't do anything wrong during the thousand years or god will zap you, and then after the big trial when Satan is released from the pit..........more power to you. How sad that all these people feel they will not be good enough to god for over a thousand years! Very uplifting.

OH, check their history...I hope you don't get into a boat and go to the middle of the river in NY waiting for God to take you up like they did over 100 years ago. LOL Are they still against higher education? Are they still telling people not to have kids and to spend their time in field service?

Enjoy the oppression, it is a free country after all.

These posts are troll like in nature, and distracting from the thread title, they have nothing to do with it.

I have to say this is the typical MO of former JW's, dwelling on the PAST and on mistakes that have long been fixed and forgotten.

I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Before I make my statements I’d like to commend the brothers who have commented thus far in defense of Jehovah’s people. Please note that these are my personal thoughts and are not officially of the Watchtower.

There are 3 things that need to be addressed in this thread.
1: The issue of personal offenses that may have occurred in congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
2: The New World Translation of the bible and what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe.
3: The topic that was supposed to be at hand, man made governments turning on religion.

1: The issue of personal offenses

We all know that there are many people in this world who have truly wicked motives. We see cases of child molestation, rape and so forth all over the world scene. This is also an indication of the times we’re living in. With so much wickedness in the world there are bound to be individuals that may creep into the congregation or even some that may let the spirit of the flesh corrupt their thinking and actions. Key point INDIVIDUALS, it reveals a lack of discernment and depth with persons who blame an entire organization of more than 7 million people on the actions of one individual. This is also why when the organization learns about such offenses, yes WHEN the organization learns about it (if the individual is in a position of authority he may hide it from the organization), action is taken to remove such ones from the congregation to protect it. Hence the case of disfellowshipping an unrepentant wrong doer. This also means that if there are cases that need to be reported to the secular authorities (police) the overseers of the congregation may not directly get involved with the report but they will by all means support the victim in there pursuit of legal action. So many people blame the organization for being victimized, because no action was taken. No action was taken because the organization didn’t know it was happening. It’s not that we don’t care. We do feel for these ones and we hope they will return and realize we do not condone the actions of the individual that hurt them. We do care for these victims and God Jehovah does love them very much.

“…it is not a desirable thing with my Father who is in heaven for one of these little ones to perish.” -Matthew 18:14

2: What Jehovah’s Witnesses believe.

In the original Hebrew Scriptures what is known as the tetragrammton the letters YHVH appear in reference to God. These four letters are usually transliterated from Hebrew as IHVH in Latin, JHWH in German, French and Dutch, and YHWH in English. The common translation of these letters into English wording is the name Jehovah. God’s name is Jehovah. Please see Psalms 83:18. Many bible translations have replaced the tetragrammton or the name Jehovah with the word LORD. Please view the forward of your bible. You may find some interesting facts on what was replaced in your translation. The translation of the Bible that Jehovah’s Witnesses use, the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, has returned the name of God to its rightful place based on the oldest available writings in Hebrew and Greek.

... to be continued on following post.

Now as regard the thought from some on this thread that Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that if you’re not one of them you’ll die in Armageddon. This is incorrect thinking. First of all Jehovah’s Witnesses are dedicated to God not out of fear of death. They are His witness out of love for Him and in support of his sovereignty, or his right to rule. We are in this world predicament today because of the actions of our first human parents. Their actions revealed their desire to be independent from God. Hence Jehovah God has allowed time to pass to prove that humans cannot successfully rule themselves… and time has prove this to be true. Remember that God sent his only begotten son in order that none maybe destroyed but all may reap the blessings under his rulership. As Jehovah’s Witnesses we feel it an obligation to tell people of this issue of sovereignty and to know who God is. When God’s Great Day arrives we do not know who will survive. The bible says that there will be a Great Crowd that no man will be able to number that will survive. All we can do is make God’s name known, and depending on how they respond, Jehovah God will be the judge.

3: The UN vs Religion

This is a deeper subject matter. It may sound absurd to some, but Bible prophesy reveals some interesting things to take note of. Here is how Jehovah’s Witnesses have come to the conclusion that man’s governments will turn on religion.

“And the ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshly parts and will completely burn her with fire.” –Revelation 17:16

The book of Revelation is symbolic. There isn’t going to be a literal woman prostitute, just as the 144,000 are not literal virgins physically. But spiritually speaking this woman, or harlot, represents an entity that violates herself with all the different types of forms of government and false teachings. We have come to believe that “the harlot” represents the world empire of false religion, or all religions as a whole, religion in general. The bible describes this harlot as sitting atop a scarlet colored wild beast with seven heads and ten horns. What is this wild beast? In Revelation, an angel explains to John that the ten horns represent the kings of the earth. So the kings of the earth, or man made governments, will be as one united governmental entity. Religion has had the support of man’s governments through out the ages. There’s going to be a time when these governments will get sick and tire of religion and turn on her and make her devastated and naked, or with out any more churches, cathedrals, temples, or authority.

There is a lot of detail surrounding this in the book of Revelation. It would take way to much space to go into it all here. I recommend you discuss it with one of Jehovah’s Witnesses next time they come to your door.

Jesus told his disciples, “Therefore, when you catch site of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains.” –Matthew 24:15,16

I’ll be brief with this, once again ask one of Jehovah’s Witnesses for more details. The first part of this prophesy was fulfilled in Roman times when the Roman soldiers took over Jerusalem and they invaded the Mostly Holy compartment of the temple of God. A disgusting thing standing in a holy place. To God man made governments are a disgusting thing when they assume the recognition and allegiance that should only belong to God. Today, the UN is posing to start one world religion, focused on a man made government. When what was discussed in Revelation happens, there will be yet again a disgusting thing standing in a holy place. At that time all would need to figuratively flee to the mountains or mentally and spiritually prepare themselves for the coming of the beginning of what Jesus describes as a, “great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.” – Matthew 24:21


I will not respond to inappropriate questions or insults on this thread. I merely felt an obligation to explain things. I believe that it’s time for all humans to put there personal agendas aside and prepare for things on a far greater, universal scale.