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Jehovah's Witnesses believe UN will ban Religion

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posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 04:43 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



Whatever may have been the most dangerous heresy when these were written would have influenced what got included. Let's say Mark came first, then before another Gospel was written, people were running around denying whatever aspect of Jesus was not explicitly laid out in Mark. So, the next one written would have those things included to stop the deniers.
So, nothing wrong with that. You may be a little paranoid to think it was meant to control people in general. It is meant to keep people getting caught up by people telling lies about their faith.


I understand your reasoning. Except it was many years later and many of those writing about him did not even know him. As you already know, the Synoptic Gospels lose some credibility as scholars do not know who even wrote them.

And how many human sacrifices were a result of a religion gaining their feet and burdening their subjects with unholy ritual and beliefs? Was that a good thing? Would you have wanted to be burned on a stake if what you believed went contrary to the church? How many churches would burn people at a stake now, if one went against their rules? Now that is scary! They just don't have the power they once did, but there is little doubt that many religions would utilize this power even today, if it was given to them.

Being a peon during the feudal system was no joy. No, religion organizing & dictating to the masses is rarely a good thing.




posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 10:06 PM
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reply to post by MatrixProphet
 

I was talking about the Bible. Did burning at the stake come from the Bible?
You don't have to tell me. I am a Seventh Day Adventist and, if it is possible, we hate the old Dark-Ages Church more than Jehovah's Witnesses.
Feudalism is recommended by the United Nations as the best form of government, so you do not have to wait long for that. The UN study on biodiversity recommends re-instituting human sacrifice to keep the population down. So you may not need a nasty Christian Church to get the killing going. Molack seems to be the god of choice of the world elite.



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 11:33 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



The UN study on biodiversity recommends re-instituting human sacrifice to keep the population down. So you may not need a nasty Christian Church to get the killing going. Molack seems to be the god of choice of the world elite.


Yes, this does seem to be the case.

As far as human sacrifice what are you referring to? Or maybe I haven't heard it referred to in this way. Possibly similar to Eugenics only sterilizing or aborting? I am curious!



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 03:16 AM
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Originally posted by chickenshoes
What I have noticed is that all religions can defend their own particular stance from the bible. This is not unique to Jehovah's Witnesses.


my own experience has shown that that is not true. there are many doctrines that simply cannont be defended by the bible.


I would encourage you to sincerely pray to God for the truth to be shown to you. Don't take any person's word for it.


im not taking any person's work for it, thats the part you dont understand.


Just one last thing, does a man desperate enough to drink Listerene sound to you as if he is capable of making a sane decision, such as to check himself into rehab? (By the way, you do know that Listerene is mouthwash, right?) How is he still accountable according to you? And, does that in turn make my Mother accountable for him before God, since she is his spouse?


so what you are saying is that this man is a victim, obsolved of all responsibility?

i have an alcoholic friend who lives a normal life. he is no different from anyone i know because of his disease. at times i notice that people forget he's alcoholic and they offer him a drink. he simply says "no thank you"

yes i agree that it is a disease. but it's triggered after someone starts drinking. you can show an army of websites showing the lack of willpower the person has (which is true, i agree) but there is a mix of personal responsibility in there too.

if a person has a history of alcoholism in their family, arent they advised not to start drinking just in case? isnt that a choice?

web4health



How does someone become an alcoholic/alcohol addict? How does alcoholism develop? What are the stages of development of alcoholism. What are the causes of alcoholism?

Answer:
You don't get dependent on alcohol just like that. It often takes years and usually begins with drinking for the effect.

Drinking for the effect
The motor for alcohol dependence is drinking for the effect. The drinker wants to change his mood to get rid of tensions, anxiety or grimness or to get more appreciation. Most people drink every now and then to change mood, but the real drinker-to-be strives for a more intense change of mood. He wants to experience a real turn, and wants to feel good again. When he does this several times, the problem is not solved and he runs the risk that his body gets used to the alcohol.


that to me sounds like a person made certain choices. granted that they may reach a "point of no return" but it was still their choices that led to alcoholism.


Do you also believe that people who become schizophrenic chose to become that way?


schizophrenia is not the result of choices in your life.


Or does someone who has cancer deserve to get it?


same thing here


Is epilepsy a choice?



Lucky you to have apparently never suffered the effects of this disease. Must be nice to sweep alcoholics under the same rug. Hope it never affects your life.


it wont, and i know it wont. i dont drink much at all. alcoholism is a disease of consequence. it a choice, if i dont drink heavy or at all, i wont get alcoholism. schizophrenica and epileptics and cancer patients unfortunatly cant say the same.



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 04:21 AM
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Originally posted by MatrixProphet
It explains why all Christians cannot agree on accurate truth and why all believe that "they" have it. An evangelical is just as convinced that they are right, as you feel you are. Too much control, so little open mindedness.


an evangelical preacher will drive around in a Royal's Royce. i think you are leaving out ill intentions too.

paul wrote timothy about appointing men who do not see the congregation as a means for dishonest gain. it was a problem back then and its a problem now.

and as ive shown in several threads, alot of these doctrines dont hold any water when the bible is brought into the discussion.

the sad fact is, some people believe what they want to believe even if the facts are staring them in the face. not everyone searches for truth.



The problem is; you can never be good enough!!

There are a lot of un-saids in these fundamentalist religions. If you haven't seen it yet, give it time. There is the unstated; yet drive, to strive for perfection, yet you are never able to attain it. The religion alone, will shame you! It sets you up to fail.


you blame religion for your disagreement with the bible.

first off, JW'S aside, the bible itself says that we are all sinners and we all die. so your "never good enough" problem is actually true. its the whole theme of the bible actually, the redemption of man through god's kingdom. from genesis to revelation. and please dont tell me we dont know that because we dont have originals. the logistics of altering the bible over 1600 years is mind-boggling. and there are enough transcripts (hebrew, arabic and greek) from enough time periods to attest to little change.

now the question is, if we are dirt, can we be good enough? and the bible says yes, as long as you keep trying.

just because you choose not keep up, doesnt mean that you couldnt.


Bart Ehrman makes complete sense in most of what he has written. It is a: take what you want and leave the rest - situation.


no he's not. i dont know if it was you or someone else that posted a thread about him. i thought is terrible.

the whole "more errors that words" argument is ridiculas. he points to little changes. 99% of these changes dont affect at all what the scripture is saying. its just semantics.

he presents his data like he discovered it, and most of his stuff has already been know for quite sometime. i love the way he presents 1 john 5:7,8. like he's discovered the trinity is not all its cracked up to be. we have known this since the 1800's.

then there are times when he just flat out lies. he explains how the earlier you go back with mark, the less you find the account of the resurrection. mind you everyone already knows this in fact most bibles include it in their commentary. after he makes the statement that the resurrection isnt found ANYWHERE in the bible. (he happily ignores the accounts of matthew, luke and john.)

i find it hard to find anything he says credible


You are incorrect if you think that there were only just a few copies in the second century and that the likelihood of there being less mistakes than there are, is just fantasy.


there are approximately 230 manuscript portions that a dated before 600 AD. 33 of them are translations of the greek NT. some of the copies such as Magdelene MS (of matthew 26) date back to about 60 AD. John Rylands (of the gospel of John) is dated back to 130AD. part of the qumran scrolls as been dated back to 68AD.

you say they arent originals. but one cannot deny the credibility of these manuscripts. especially since most secular manuscipts (like plato and homer) usually have a 750 - 1400 year gap between copy and date written.



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 04:26 AM
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I invited the Mormons and the Jehovas Witnesses over and told them if they fought a caged death match that the winners could save my soul.

I have heard this nonsense about the UN before, but I cannot see it happening. Religion is too entrenched. You could never get rid of it.



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 10:49 AM
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reply to post by MatrixProphet
 


As far as human sacrifice what are you referring to? Or maybe I haven't heard it referred to in this way. Possibly similar to Eugenics only sterilizing or aborting? I am curious!

In Bohemian Grove, where the power elite hang out, they promote this kind:



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 11:46 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


I appreciate all the research you have done.

A point to consider:

Alcoholism becomes a choice with the first drink, yes. But alcoholism can also be an inherited disease. Perhaps you did not know this. This person is not a bad person but is one that is sick. There are countless factors that enter the picture and it is not quite so cut and dried as you think.

Also, alcoholism is not determined by how much one drinks! This is a incorrect understanding and promotion. There are "stages" to alcoholism. Heavy drinking is attributed to late stage alcoholism. You can actually be an alcoholic way before you are a heavy drinker. It is not about frequency and quantity, other than diagnosing late stage!

Homosexuality can be a result of sexual abuse. Although, there are genes or tendencies that can also be attributed to the "sins of our fathers." Another words; inherited. A form of a mutant but not a negative one. Yes, the Bible is clear on homosexuality and also drunkenness. With divine help and at times outside help - a person can then know they have choices. But what can enter into homosexuality is; sexual addiction. This complicates the situation, as it does with a heterosexual. Then you bring alcohol into the picture and you have a cross addicted person. You cannot pray it away!!

As far as your disgust towards Bart Ehrman and what you feel is discreditable I will have to leave to you. I do not have at my access any of the earliest copies nor do I believe you do. Understanding human behavior as I do, and dysfunction, with alterior motives, you have a catastrophe waiting to happen, in recording accurate information. Plus, if it was that important to Jah - he would have had everything recorded immediately to prevent his words from getting twisted, and from the scribes literally changing words and texts to promote their teachings. HIS TRUTH would not need the heretical scribes to form the canon that would then lead eventually to the NWT! This is not debatable!

To me, much of what he says makes sense, but as with all authors (I am one myself) you have to take what "feels" right to you and disregard the rest. He is obviously disenchanted with the whole thing and to some extent has possibly thrown the baby out with the bathwater!

I have always had the understanding of: "The light will grow brighter as the day draws near."

I look to many authors for new light as I know that it is not beyond Jah to reveal knowledge through anyone whom he chooses to!

I find that religion has become stale with no new enlightenment (which is a sure sign that Gods spirit is not on them). You are on the outside, not on the inside of that organization. I was on the inside for most of my life for over 40 years (and I understood many things you will not see because of my connections to higher levels). I was an old-timer and walked away, a member in good standing. I left loving friends and family behind because I could no longer be part of "The Lie!"

I will leave you to your own experience, but I doubt you will forget the insight I have tried to prepare you for, right, wrong or indifferent.

Normally I do not go into anything this far on ATS. But there are others "listening" and are also searchers who are looking for accurate truth. I bid you good-day!



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 11:46 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Yes, now I see what you are referring to. Thanks!



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 11:53 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566


my own experience has shown that that is not true. there are many doctrines that simply cannont be defended by the bible.


You know, it's funny, but in my 24 years of going door to door, every single personwho had a particular belief to defend could find a scripture to defend it. How long have you been going out in service, Miriam?


im not taking any person's work for it, thats the part you dont understand.


Pretty sure Jehovah's Witnesses founder was a man.

en.wikipedia.org...'s_Witnesses


Jehovah's Witnesses is a restorationist[1], millenialist[2] Christian denomination. The religion emerged from the Bible Student Movement, founded in the late 19th century by Charles Taze Russell, and underwent significant change between 1917 and the 1940s as its authority structure was centralized and its preaching methods brought under greater regimentation.[3][4] The religion today claims an active worldwide membership of 7.0 million.






so what you are saying is that this man is a victim, obsolved of all responsibility?


If he's sick enough to drink Listerene then hell, yes that's what I'm saying. Have you ever used Listerene? It's not even fun to rinse your mouth out with, it hurts. Now, again, do you really think someone capable of making a sane decision would drink Listerene?


i have an alcoholic friend who lives a normal life. he is no different from anyone i know because of his disease. at times i notice that people forget he's alcoholic and they offer him a drink. he simply says "no thank you"


Well, here again, lucky for you this disease has not truly touched your life. If you had any experience with a truly sick alcoholic, you would not be so flippant about it.

If anyone has a reason to hate a man for being alcoholic, it's me. I grew up with the guy for god's sakes. He wreaked havoc on our lives for years and years, and the elders did nothing but quote scriptures. Oh, and professional help was completely out of the question, according to them. They "preferred we resolve the problem amongst ourselves".

It was only after I got away from JW's and began doing my own research on alcoholism that I was able to understand that he really didn't have control over what was happening.


yes i agree that it is a disease. but it's triggered after someone starts drinking. you can show an army of websites showing the lack of willpower the person has (which is true, i agree) but there is a mix of personal responsibility in there too.


Ok, suppose a person who has an allergy to something takes it, not realizing that he has that allergy. The sensitivity to that particular thing has been triggered with the first ingestion of said substance, although the reaction may not be life threatening. However, the next time, or the fifth time,or the hundredth time, the reaction may be more severe or prove fatal. Are you saying that the person who innocently ingests something that he is allergic to is responsible for his own allergic reaction? That does not make sense.


if a person has a history of alcoholism in their family, arent they advised not to start drinking just in case? isnt that a choice?


Funny, no one ever told my dad not to drink. And, no one has ever told me not to drink.


web4health



How does someone become an alcoholic/alcohol addict? How does alcoholism develop? What are the stages of development of alcoholism. What are the causes of alcoholism?

Answer:
You don't get dependent on alcohol just like that. It often takes years and usually begins with drinking for the effect.

Drinking for the effect
The motor for alcohol dependence is drinking for the effect. The drinker wants to change his mood to get rid of tensions, anxiety or grimness or to get more appreciation. Most people drink every now and then to change mood, but the real drinker-to-be strives for a more intense change of mood. He wants to experience a real turn, and wants to feel good again. When he does this several times, the problem is not solved and he runs the risk that his body gets used to the alcohol.


that to me sounds like a person made certain choices. granted that they may reach a "point of no return" but it was still their choices that led to alcoholism.


While there is some truth in this article, it is highly oversimplified. It's not as quite how you and the article make it sound. I lived with my dad for 23 years. I know what I'm talking about.


Here's some interesting information for you on alcoholism.

www.webmd.com...

Researchers Identify Alcoholism Gene

May 26, 2004 -- A new study links a gene to alcohol addiction -- backing up a long-recognized pattern showing that alcoholism runs in families.

The finding also provides evidence that an inborn high level of anxiety is part of this picture. The study appears in this week's issue of the Journal of Neuroscience.

Research has shown that alcohol addiction is a complex disease, with both genetics and a tendency toward anxiety playing "crucial roles," writes researcher Subhash C. Pandey, PhD, a psychiatrist with the University of Illinois at Chicago.

"Some 30% to 70% of alcoholics are reported to suffer from anxiety and depression," Pandey says in a news release. "Drinking is a way for these individuals to self-medicate."

Pandey's research focuses on the CREB gene, so-named because it produces a protein called CREB -- cyclic AMP responsive element binding protein. The CREB gene regulates brain function during development and learning. The gene is also involved in the process of alcohol tolerance, dependence, and withdrawal symptoms, writes Pandey.

A section of the brain -- called the central amygdala -- is another piece of this puzzle. Both the CREB gene and the central amygdala have been linked with withdrawal and anxiety. When there is less CREB in the central amygdala, rats show increased anxiety-like behaviors and preference for alcohol. Pandey's newest study puts it all together: It is "the first direct evidence that a deficiency in the CREB gene is associated with anxiety and alcohol-drinking behavior," Pandey writes.


You see, I can do it, too. For every article you post seemingly justifying your position, I can find one that justifies mine even better.


[edit on 31-

[edit on 31-10-2008 by chickenshoes]



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 01:14 PM
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ON ALCOHOLISM:

the both of you seem intent on double teaming me on this subject so im going to reply without quoting so its easier to keep track of. the impression i get from the both of you is that the elders were wrong. and im not exactly sure on what...

- are you saying they should have just kept their mouths shut and pushed it under the carpet? wouldn't that have prolonged the suffering of the alcoholic and those affected by him? don't alcoholics have "interventions" with their friends who love them and are concerned for them? im not sure how an elder trying to counsel someone from the bible is so horrible.

- if the alcoholic refuses to do anything to help themselves, are the elders suppose to sit back a watch? even when the bible says disciplinary action is required?

- is it that you upset that they didnt recommend professional help? i took the liberty of doing some research (my friend has the watchtower and awake indexes) to see what the watchtower organization says about alcoholism. and it says pretty much what you have stated here, except it advises people to be careful when drinking because it could lead to alcoholism. none of the articles from 1950 up said that one shouldn't consult professional help, infact one in 7/8 1982 awake said that sometimes hospitalization and rehab is needed.

i digged deeper about whether JW's are told not to receive professional help. watchtower 9/1 1996 says that it is the person's personal decision, it only tells them to be careful and make sure that the doctor has good credentials.

even the recent awakes have some information. taken from awake 10/08/05



When someone begins to abuse alcohol, he or she is not worthless or beyond hope. Some even manage to break free on their own. However, individuals who are alcohol dependent may need professional help to become abstinent. For some people outpatient treatment works, but when withdrawal symptoms are severe, hospitalization may be necessary. Once the initial physical withdrawal symptoms have passed—between two and five days—medication may be prescribed to reduce craving and to continue abstinence.


so what happen? elders counsel someone and you didnt like the way it was handled so you left?

did an elder tell you that you couldnt get professional help? isnt this information available to you too, couldnt you have done your own research?

this doesnt sound like righteous indignation, it sounds like bitterness.



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 01:31 PM
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Originally posted by MatrixProphet
Homosexuality can be a result of sexual abuse. Although, there are genes or tendencies that can also be attributed to the "sins of our fathers." Another words; inherited. A form of a mutant but not a negative one. Yes, the Bible is clear on homosexuality and also drunkenness. With divine help and at times outside help - a person can then know they have choices. But what can enter into homosexuality is; sexual addiction. This complicates the situation, as it does with a heterosexual. Then you bring alcohol into the picture and you have a cross addicted person. You cannot pray it away!!


yes, and the watchtowers say sometimes professional help is needed, so whats the conflict?


I do not have at my access any of the earliest copies nor do I believe you do. Understanding human behavior as I do, and dysfunction, with alterior motives, you have a catastrophe waiting to happen, in recording accurate information. Plus, if it was that important to Jah - he would have had everything recorded immediately to prevent his words from getting twisted, and from the scribes literally changing words and texts to promote their teachings. HIS TRUTH would not need the heretical scribes to form the canon that would then lead eventually to the NWT! This is not debatable!


its not debatable because you dont want to debate it. you'd rather take Mr. erhman's word for it.


To me, much of what he says makes sense, but as with all authors (I am one myself) you have to take what "feels" right to you and disregard the rest. He is obviously disenchanted with the whole thing and to some extent has possibly thrown the baby out with the bathwater!


what im trying to say regarding him is that i havent really come across anything that "feels" right with him. even when he blasts the trinity (which i dont believe in) he isnt saying anything new. its all old information


I look to many authors for new light as I know that it is not beyond Jah to reveal knowledge through anyone whom he chooses to!


but why? if we have to take what "feels" right and disregard the rest wouldnt that mean going through garbage? why would god make us sift through garbage to get our spiritual food? what about matthew 24:45?



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
now this was the discussion i was having, i was talking about this belief and whether or not they have a point. honestly im not interested in listening to you ramble about an organization you have a problem with for god knows what reason.

You obviously haven't read the thread you are now filling with all your words.

Do you feel that the JW church is the right one and that their collaboration (and the hiding of that fact) with the UN and the FBI is the solution to Earth's problems? If you are confused, please read my previous comments on this thread, because you are burying truth with your incessant and loooooong posts.




its not a stubbed toe, the world is in the ICU, in its death throws. im surprised that a person like you being on a site like this who can turn on the news anytimes they like doesnt see this. never before has the world been in danger in so many ways.

so if the bibles idea of wiping out everyone who contributes to the wickedness of this world in order for it to be "fixed" repulses you, then stop complaining and offer an alternative.

I fear you are feeling hopeless, and yes, that will always work out well for any doorknockers like the JWs, who seek weak and sad people.

You are placing the burden of a "solution" on my shoulders while advocating the mental darkness of the Watchtower? Truly funny, but that's what Jws do. Thinking and reasoning on the numbers are not pssoible for them, because the SITUATION IS SO GRAVE that only JEHOVAH can resolve it. Your posts are such a perfect example of a person being trapped in a corner.

Yes there are many solutions, but who can propose them when mutil-million dollar corporations like the Watchtower control our country while FAKELY pretending to be anti-government... THERE IS NOBODY MORE INTERESTED IN GOVERNMENT than the Watchtower! The just want a more repressive form of Government.

If you think the UN and The watchtower have not worked together, then please do read this thread, which you are burying under a mass of empty words. Don't you think people get enough of this jiber-jabber at their doors??




actually jesus did specifically send his disciple out door to door. in fact, from the looks of it, the JW's, and the Mormons seem to be the only ones actually walking in jesus' footsteps

These two corporations you mention are the two with a real zest for aggressively finding members, --but I'd say the JW's are the whores when it comes to ambushing people at their doorsteps.

When I was a JW I talked to lots of Mormons who came to MY door an I found them to be generally much mcuh nicer and less militant about the propagada they were pushing. JW's just want to get the propaganda in people's hands. This waqs when I myself was carrying out my parent's rules to be a good "Witness" while also obeying all other Watchtower mandates.

Let me ask you a very simple question: Do people like having their door knocked on? ...The answer is NO. Yet the JW robot sees his/her goal as being to A: Preserve their righteousness by being a public spectacle, and B: To give the householder a chance to damn himself.

The JW never thinks that they are victimizing people at the doorstep because of the emotions you are displaying here which I'll summarize in this quote: "The world is so bad, these people NEED ther doors knocked on!" ....But what you don't get is that the JW doorknockers do not talk to the householder about THEIR OWN FAITH they just push the magazines and "books" which are the most slickly published and distributed propaganda on earth at this time.

Do you ever, ever see any "How to Preach" demonstrations at your Kingdom Hall where they teach you to talk with the householder about your own feelings? No, they put a "Pioneer" on the stage, and they show you how to subtly invade the householder's life and mind, but MOSTLY to get the propaganda into their hands.



lets say hypothetically god will destroy this world. what type of person would he preserve?

The type who has a large library of Non-Watchower approved reading, that's who.



But the all-seeing "Watchtower" really just a mirror form of Catholicism, if you look at it. The Watchtower may have rejected the pomp of the Catholics, but not the inquisitionary spirit, and not the piousness. I think both the Catholics (Rome) and the Watchtower (Jewish B'nai Brith front) are the same kind of poison. They seem to be two sides of the larger dialectic, so clearly opposed, yet so clearly in agreement. also both sides wouldbe happy to eliminate half of the world's population and then fight for the survivors.



inquisitionary spirit? lol

door to doo ministry and the inquisition are 2 completely different things

If you don't know what I mean, then you have never been in the Watchtower and experienced an inquiry as to your personal, private behavior. Yes, they have inquisitions, why do you think three elders are required if your boyfriend, for example, puts his hand up your skirt? Try it an see how they react. See if you can detect any lip-smacking or drool as they ask for the details of your sexual past.

Oh wait, I know you'll come back with the standard lame answer. Let me save you three poorly formed paragraphs by summarizing your response here:

"Oh but Jehovah has to keep his organization clean so only humble and sheeplike ones can join!"

...But the "elders" in the JW church do surely get a nice little story told to them when Sister Sheeplike Hotpants can't keep her skirt down, right? Almost like Catholic confession, isn't it? But of course you'll spend three paragraphs telling me it's different because of yadda-yadda-yadda...

Although you are supposedly ignorant of the Watchtower's back-room interrogations of their member's private behavior, can you possibly be ignorant also of the idea that JESUS NEVER INTERROGATED ANYBODY? How did Jesus deal with a whore, as opposed to how your JW Elders would deal with that same whore in their congregation?

Do you really actually know anything about what it is like to live in the Watchtower? ..Now I guess there'll be a thousand more words so you can make your point in response. But really, just spare us.



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 01:51 PM
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Originally posted by chickenshoes
You know, it's funny, but in my 24 years of going door to door, every single personwho had a particular belief to defend could find a scripture to defend it. How long have you been going out in service, Miriam?


never. but i do have experience dealing with debates, here on ATS too.

being able to pop up a scripture that eludes to your belief doesn't mean that you have successfully defended it. if you want to see an example of this, just look at the thread i had on the trinity. i made one awhile back (which is accessible through my profile) and there is a more current one floating around. trinitarians pull out scripture all the time to support their view. this doesn't mean they prove it.

most of the scriptures they show can be taken 2 ways (i say most because one of them is completely made up.). if you take the meaning one way, it conflict with the rest of the bible, if you take the meaning the second way, they you find it agrees with the rest of the bible.

i am an idiot who literally has never gone to school and i can see that, im surpised that a person like you who has 25 years experience cant see that.



Pretty sure Jehovah's Witnesses founder was a man.


yes he was, but i dont take his work for it. i dont want to be a JW because they asked me to be, i want to be one because i agree with them. ive studied on my own and i actually agree with them



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 02:00 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
ON ALCOHOLISM:


the both of you seem intent on double teaming me on this subject so im going to reply without quoting so its easier to keep track of. the impression i get from the both of you is that the elders were wrong. and im not exactly sure on what...


When my mom approached them for help, and they gave us a Shepherding Call their response was to A: hurl insults at my dad, I suppose in an attempt to shame him into "behaving".

B: discourage any kind of professional help. My Mom even wrote to the Governing Body regarding our problems, after the local Elders weren't doing squat. Their response was similar, only put in a nicer way.


- are you saying they should have just kept their mouths shut and pushed it under the carpet? wouldn't that have prolonged the suffering of the alcoholic and those affected by him? don't alcoholics have "interventions" with their friends who love them and are concerned for them? im not sure how an elder trying to counsel someone from the bible is so horrible.


No, I'm not, but insults and indifference were completely out of line. I realize they are just humans, but this simply underscores my point that they are not qualified to help a person who is ill, and should not be put in that position. And, the advice to avoid professional help was extremely detrimental.


- if the alcoholic refuses to do anything to help themselves, are the elders suppose to sit back a watch? even when the bible says disciplinary action is required?


No, and discipline they did, after insults and faulty advice didn't work. My dad was disfellowshipped for several years. And, a fat lot of good thatdid. My mom finally had to take matters into her own hands and had him kicked out.


- is it that you upset that they didnt recommend professional help? i took the liberty of doing some research (my friend has the watchtower and awake indexes) to see what the watchtower organization says about alcoholism. and it says pretty much what you have stated here, except it advises people to be careful when drinking because it could lead to alcoholism. none of the articles from 1950 up said that one shouldn't consult professional help, infact one in 7/8 1982 awake said that sometimes hospitalization and rehab is needed.


All I knew was the congregation elders recommendations. I was a kid at the time, so I didn't think to research. My mom just dutifully did as she was told by her congregation and the governing body. In her mind, to do research on the subject after she'd been encouraged to not seek professional help would have been kin to apostasy. She and I were only trying to be good Witnesses.

All I can say as to your research is that sometimes, what the gov. body sees fit to publish changes from one moment to the next. That info was from 1982, and I'm sure it was quite different before then. There is little consistency except on the main points, but of course, that's just the light getting brighter, right?


i digged deeper about whether JW's are told not to receive professional help. watchtower 9/1 1996 says that it is the person's personal decision, it only tells them to be careful and make sure that the doctor has good credentials.


Well, here again, that's from 1996, Miriam. Information conveniently changes from time to time with the gov. body. Apparently, Jehovah has trouble making up his mind quite frequently.


even the recent awakes have some information. taken from awake 10/08/05



When someone begins to abuse alcohol, he or she is not worthless or beyond hope. Some even manage to break free on their own. However, individuals who are alcohol dependent may need professional help to become abstinent. For some people outpatient treatment works, but when withdrawal symptoms are severe, hospitalization may be necessary. Once the initial physical withdrawal symptoms have passed—between two and five days—medication may be prescribed to reduce craving and to continue abstinence.


so what happen? elders counsel someone and you didnt like the way it was handled so you left?

did an elder tell you that you couldnt get professional help? isnt this information available to you too, couldnt you have done your own research?

this doesnt sound like righteous indignation, it sounds like bitterness.


Actually, no, my dad's problems go back almost as far back as I can remember. I didn't leave JW's till I was 24. As I said before, I was a kid at the time, I didn't think to research it on my own, I just accepted what was on my plate, for the most part.

I think you are mixing me up with another poster, I never said anything about righteous indignation.

Bitterness? You have no idea.



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 02:14 PM
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As far as the UN banning religion, I agree with many posters that it won't happen. However if one digs into the charters and mandates of the UN's theosophical society, you will find that they are trying to blend all religions into one big hodge podge of worship, thus destroying the fundamentals of any one particular faith.



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566


never. but i do have experience dealing with debates, here on ATS too.

being able to pop up a scripture that eludes to your belief doesn't mean that you have successfully defended it. if you want to see an example of this, just look at the thread i had on the trinity. i made one awhile back (which is accessible through my profile) and there is a more current one floating around. trinitarians pull out scripture all the time to support their view. this doesn't mean they prove it.

most of the scriptures they show can be taken 2 ways (i say most because one of them is completely made up.). if you take the meaning one way, it conflict with the rest of the bible, if you take the meaning the second way, they you find it agrees with the rest of the bible.

i am an idiot who literally has never gone to school and i can see that, im surpised that a person like you who has 25 years experience cant see that.



Obviously you don't get that talking to someone with relative anonymity over the internet does not equate with standing on the doorstep of an irate Southern Baptist who is thumping on a Bible. Had you ever done that, you might understand.

I'm from what's called the Buckle on the Bible Belt

en.wikipedia.org...

In the town where I grew up there were 3 bible colleges (not to mention 2 more in the surrounding area) as well as Assembly of God World Headquarters.

If you think I haven't been intimidated in a debate with a bible college student, a Southern Baptist, or a Pentecostal, then think again.

And what good does just telling me that a lot of scriptures can be taken two ways? Do you have an example?



yes he was, but i dont take his work for it. i dont want to be a JW because they asked me to be, i want to be one because i agree with them. ive studied on my own and i actually agree with them


Hey, no problem. After all, it's your decision ulitmately. The fact remains that Russel was still just a guy, and a very flawed one at that.

Understand, I have many, very good reasons for feeling the way I do, and I'm not just blowing smoke here. They all come from my own research and personal experience of 24 years.



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 03:29 PM
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reply to post by chickenshoes
 


ON ALCOHOLISM

the problem with your statements is that the watchtower doesnt discourage professional help when needed. like i said, even with watchtowers back to the 50's there was no mention of professional help.

i sorry to hear about your father. but the fact is, he cannot be absolved of his responsibility in the matter.

as for your mother not doing research, i feel bad. because they are constantly encouraging people to do personal study. to find things out for themselves.

on the other subject

sure russell was imperfect. but so was moses, so was abraham, so was job.

imperfection doesnt mean that god wont use a person to fulfill his will. the preaching work has to be done. if you have chosen to leave because of people in that imperfect organization, then so be it. that is your decision.



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 03:44 PM
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Rather than talk about the Watchtower anymore, I'd like to propose a much more interesting book for their weekly "Bookstudy"

Please, all JWs who are reading this here, ask your "Bookstudy" conductor to spend at least 10 minutes discussing the greatest Novel of our Time, I am speaking of Watchmen, by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, presented by DC comics...

I am here going to begin what I hope will become a tradition of responding to JWs and Watchtower folks with this book, which so finely parodies them, below.

Now understand that this is not a pardoy, per se, because when you read the bok, you will understand exactly what role the "smiling JW" plays, in what is coming. Isn't it brilliant how these authors merged the two religions you mentioned?? ...Mormons ride bikes and dress like this, wheres a JW would say "That is nothing like us! Look how different we are!" Yet clearly their role, in this story which is told in this very fine and prescient novel, can be deduced from this single page of images, which I have presented here?

Oh yes, each page of Watchmen is a work of art. Watch for the movie coming next year!!!

wiki/Watchmen
wiki/Watchmen_(film)





...Really, everything discussed here in this thread, is summed up in this fine book, so far superior to all Watchtower propaganda. ...And I am also speaking about alcoholism.

In this book, which I encourage all JWs and other humans to read, immediately, you find the answers to this thread, and so much more, though it is a comic book and it is meant to be very darkly disturbing.

One of the main characters in this book does have a serious alcohol problem, but what that has to do with this thread, I have no idea. Watchmen, however, will make all JWs stronger, if they can see themselves through the world's eyes.



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by smallpeeps
Do you feel that the JW church is the right one and that their collaboration (and the hiding of that fact) with the UN and the FBI is the solution to Earth's problems? If you are confused, please read my previous comments on this thread,


yes, so the organization is enrolled with no inclusion or special status and suddenly they are collaborating. i believe the paperwork says "Please note that association of NGOs with DPI does not constitute their incorporation into the United Nations system, nor does it entitle associated organizations or their staff to any kind of privileges, immunities or special status."

stretch the truth some more.


because you are burying truth with your incessant and loooooong posts.


not burying anything. dont like my long posts? tough.


You are placing the burden of a "solution" on my shoulders while advocating the mental darkness of the Watchtower?


yes, yes i am. if relying on god to solve our problems is stupid, then suggest something smarter.



door to doo ministry and the inquisition are 2 completely different things

If you don't know what I mean, then you have never been in the Watchtower and experienced an inquiry as to your personal, private behavior. Yes, they have inquisitions, why do you think three elders are required if your boyfriend, for example, puts his hand up your skirt? Try it an see how they react. See if you can detect any lip-smacking or drool as they ask for the details of your sexual past.

Oh wait, I know you'll come back with the standard lame answer. Let me save you three poorly formed paragraphs by summarizing your response here:

"Oh but Jehovah has to keep his organization clean so only humble and sheeplike ones can join!"

...But the "elders" in the JW church do surely get a nice little story told to them when Sister Sheeplike Hotpants can't keep her skirt down, right? Almost like Catholic confess


first off... the inquisition was the church torturing and killing people of different faiths.

with all due respect, GET REAL.

a person going door to door preaching about something they believe in is not the inquisitionary spirit.

second, where the heck is all this sexual tension you have coming from?




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