You are a Jihadi , you just don't know it.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

I think the Muslim Community would get MUCH further with respect and understanding if the effort were to correct the misrepresentation BY MUSLIMS

While I seriously doubt my knowledge of the Muslim religion or the Middle Eastern cultures is on par with yours, I have to point out one thing: respect goes both ways.

In 1925 Iran, Reza Khan was declared Shah with the assistance of Western powers. He effectively overtook the democratically-elected ruling body of the majiles, countering many of their earlier attempts to improve the country. This overthrow eventually led to his son, Reza Mohammed Shah, being at the center of the 1970's Iranian Hostage Crisis.

We, along with the UK, overthrew a democratically-elected government to introduce a dictator, all because that democratically-elected government wished greater control of their oil, specifically more Iranian control and less by the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company who controlled Iranian oil with strictly Western influences at the time.

That is not respect. That is disrespect.

Respect must be a two-way street. A great deal of the problems we seem to see among extremist Muslims today has to do with almost a century of interference and abuse form the West. That does not, IMO, excuse these extremists groups; their targets are not their detractors, but rather those who are forced to live under the thumb of their detractors. It does not excuse those who would try to force their religious views on others. It does, however, do much to help understand the extremism.

Would that we could better understand each other; may this thread assist in that goal. Thank you OP, for your insights.

TheRedneck

reply to post by charles1952

Hey Charles!

I admit, I didn't carefully read every single entry in that list, and in fact, most that I clicked were duplicates or didn't work at all, and the remaining were from what were basically unsourceable blog websites. The only one that I found was an incident in the Maldives where a teacher was imprisoned for two weeks for having a Bible. Maldives is a bit funny in how it handles freedom of religion, though...despite Islam being the official state religion (to the level that to be a citizen you have to be muslim), even muslims are not allowed to hold public discussions on Islam, and the only sermons allowed are verified ones from the government.

So yeah, one country that imprisoned someone for having a Bible (your second link was about proselytising, which is pretty bad, I agree, but different from what butcherguy was saying). Still no country that beheaded someone for having one, though, which butcherguy was remarkably insistent on. I suppose hyperbole makes for interesting reading, but I don't go around talking about violent christian soldiers raping muslims like it happens every other day (and if anyone is going to retort with "but it does with muslims!" please, again, remember the meaning of "hyperbole", and then perhaps give me a nice couple of links to proper news sources).

Other stuff by butcherguy: his assertion that the people who are in gitmo are there because they participated in terrorist activities. The problem is...in many cases, they weren't, and aren't (but probably will be now, after being wrongfully imprisoned with no legal recourse). So yeah, essentially, many in gitmo are there simply because they happen to be muslim.

Also, linking the wiki page for "Honour Killing" is a bit disingenuous, considering the implicit presumption that it is a purely muslim thing. The most honour killings in the world happen in india (and the ones in the west often happen with south-asian people), involving Sikhs and Hindus and even Christians. Even in Africa and Latin America you get Christian honour killings.

And about that, it is a bit silly to compare the US with a country like Afghanistan...that has been the subject of repeated pummelling from wars (often involving the US itself) and extremism (helped and cemented in place by the US again).
Try comparing it to Christian Africa instead, and see how many barbaric stories you can pick out and find.

reply to post by babloyi


good point here.

While many people choose to separate religion and politic , they fail to see the separation of culture and religion and history.

I mean , look around the world and try to define Islam. You can not do it and you will fail to draw single boundary in many many cases.

Religion is affected by many properties of the people who believe in it.

Even in middle east , you find different version of truth and instructions. disregarding new sects like Wahhabism which are 300 years old.

Islam is affected by the culture of the tribes. And what is done is not according to instructions in many cases.

So , my point is that Islam is not one single ideology or instruction of living.

I knew it and started this thread to discuss how true Muslims think about fighting thieves and opportunist.

This is what common sense accepts and approaches while some members are going to point to this fact that I said.

Islam is affected by the culture of the tribes. And what is done is not according to instructions in many cases.

And maybe I can not get to agreement with thieves because they want resources and opportunities , but the truth should be discussed



You know what I think when I see someone who is claimed to be Muslim committing crimes ?

I think that he is paid good money to this and he must have been very desperate to do this.

Because when west can bring it's favorite tribes on power , like in Saudi Arbia

When west can do coup all around the world to get it's favorite man to power , in many countries

Then it can find a desperate and brain washed man to commit crime against innocent people.

Originally posted by butcherguy
Ok. I just looked back. Crusades... Muslims and Christians killing each other, both sides committing atrocities.

Let us go to the present now. This is where we are and the time in which we can cause things in the future to be better.

Christians are not (today) going around committing acts of terrorism and backing their actions with what is written in the Bible.
Countries that still have a majority Christian population are not imprisoning Muslims for owning a copy of the Koran.

Try owning a copy of the Bible in some Islamic countries. Today.... not the 11th century!

I really don't care about any of that. The whole point of my post is that all 'organized' religions go prettymuch the same way. "Believe what I believe, or die." Also, you've been proven wrong by other members, so I really don't have much work to do.
As I said, people should quit trying to 'organize' a religion, and just believe what you believe in your heart. Just keep it to yourself, so it doesn't inhibit the belief's of others.

reply to post by jjsr420

As I said, people should quit trying to 'organize' a religion, and just believe what you believe in your heart. Just keep it to yourself, so it doesn't inhibit the belief's of others.

And that's what west wants.

To get us divided and steal our resources.

Sorry can't buy it even if it was true.

So Iran is trying to put a spin on the defination here on ATS, and as usual blame Saudi Arabia as the cause of terrorism when SA had been actively putting militants into prisons to rehabilitate them when the apostate Khamenei funds the Hizbollahs to terrorise and destablize our world, and hang their own iranian shia dissidents as 'american or jewish spies'???

How's the weather in Iran, OP?

1. For the misinformed and ignorant, if one wants to dig back to the only american involvement in Iran, it was back in 52, and PLEASE, cut the BS halftruths and lies, but be honest.

The democratically govt had sought to nationalize its oil. A noble aim for the country which none will deny. HOWEVER, the truth was that it was fully funded by corporations who did the research, built the infrastructure, gave jobs to thousands of iranians, paid up to the treasury of its share in the biz enterprise for years.

And when all was running along fine, some greedy son of a b*tch comes along and says 'NATIONALIZE' it, no negotiatiions, no reparitations. This is nothing more than OUTRIGHT DAYLIGHT ROBBERY, against all international law, human law and biz law. And you think anyone else would stand for it, except the beneficiaries roused up with greed deviously hidden by nationalistic slogans?

1952 iis now long over. Throughout that period, Iran saw tremendous progress and evolution from that oil wealth and stability alone from the Shah of Iran. UNFORTUNATELY, religion was and still is a great way to rob power, steal wealth and set oneself up as a god-on-Earth.

The secular shah of Iran did what he had to do to those thieves to ensure stability and a secular way of life, and by today's enlightened standards, the methods he used would seem repressive.

The thieves won through the fooled iranian masses. Apostate Khomenei made himself a god-on-Earth, with ultimate supreme power whereby no one can challenge him except death, MISUSING a religion that outside Iran, ALL muslims declares there are NO other gods except ALLAH. Iranians today are claimed to be living in paradise, as the dogs of Khamenei would tell you and want you to believe.


2. The concept of Islamic Jihad is born within Islam, and is not something that the west had taught as you OP falsely claimed, yet again to lay blame on others than your god Khamenei.

By itself, Jihad is not a worry, for to declare Jihad, it must come from the community, and not one man alone, as the prophet had taught. Those who screamed Jihad, expacially violent Jihad, had acted on the own and have no support from the muslim community, and thus the condemnation for these lone or few wolves.

There will be a real jihad for sure. It is already building up. In the Middle East. No western nation is involved in it right now, except for Russia. It is all very plain for all to see who are the culprits. Best your apostate Khamenei call off his dogs - the hizbollahs and the disguised revolutionary guards...oops typo...'shia pilgrims' out of Syria now before it is too late, if it is not already is.


2.

reply to post by babloyi

Dear babloyi,

I was wrong. I committed several sins against my own posting values, and I have no excuse for it. The only reason it happened was because I was tired and lazy. I wish I could take my post back. I was over-generalizing and throwing out walls of information which I hadn't checked and were only occasionally on point. I had not considered the series of posts which led to your comment. All in all, it was a seriously bad job and I apologize.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by mideast

This instruction tells Muslims that although this world is not stable and we will travel from this world , but we(Muslims) should stand up for the rights that god has granted us. The rights like our soil and our resources.

What is your "soil" and resources?
What countries are the "soil"?

If somebody converts to Islamism, and a month or so later they are fighting as Al Qaeda insurgents against Muslim-led governments, does that also make them "occupiers"?

Other people then also have the right to struggle for their soil and resources (and the mental freedom of their daughters and sons), and against a perceived foreign take-over.

Originally posted by mideast
Salam and peace to all ATS members.

It has been a long time that western MSM govts has been launching programs to stop rich oil region nations from fighting invaders and thieves.

I started this thread regarding a recent thread that is trying to follow the same line that western media is going

I didn't expect to see this on ATS.

Main idea

The main idea of this thread is to explain how false you have been informed about Jihad.

Jihad is a name for an instruction. This instruction tells Muslims that although this world is not stable and we will travel from this world , but we(Muslims) should stand up for the rights that god has granted us. The rights like our soil and our resources.

It has been a year I have been on ATS and I was informed about this site before.

I have seen many western members that say "I will fight if some one attacks America , or UK , or...But I won't go to fight and kill in Iraq"

I am telling you people that Muslims think the same way and that is all that Jihad wants us to do. And despite the name , the idea is functioning the same everywhere and all the time.

But your govt and MSM tells you that killing innocents and without warning in masses is Jihad , while it is not.

We are not what your govt tells you we are.

peace , M.E.

I have read the Quran and I will tell you that Jihad in the sense that Islam holds it is the struggle to dominate and eventually rule the world under a total Islamic government and religion (which is one and the same).

In the Quran, they are instructed to go into the lands of the enemy (all who are not muslim) and wait until such time as you have sufficient numbers to wage Jihad. Live among them, grow in number, eat their sustenance and then fight and overtake them.

In Islam, there is no peace except in the grave. It's all about war, death, and destruction, and to that end, the world is the enemy until it is totally subdued.

What they do is pretend to be sheep and docile people. Law abiding patriotic citizens of the nation they desire to take as a spoil. They will live next door to you, eat dinner with your family, your kids will play with their kids. But when the call for holy war comes they will kill you and take your women (whatever your right hand possesses) and kill the men. The war will not end until they are taken and subjugated.

Bottom line, no matter how much you try to put a happy face sticker on it, the truth always finds a way to testify to the reality of the times in which we live. If anyone out there wants to believe the peaceful sheep among us song and dance, go for it, but I'm not buying it. It all reminds me so much of the movie "They Live".

reply to post by Fromabove

Bottom line, no matter how much you try to put a happy face sticker on it, the truth always finds a way to testify to the reality of the times in which we live

Agreed , no matter how bitter it is , it will come out one day.

But I disagree with rest of your comment because

1- you used your own interpretation of Islam
2-You ignored the truth about Iraq and Afghanistan and played victim of these wars while you are not.
3- You neglected all of my posts through the thread and just focused on the OP

If anyone out there wants to believe the peaceful sheep among us song and dance, go for it, but I'm not buying it.

As I said before , we are not dancing kind of people

here is the dancer





In the OP and in other posts , I discussed about Jihad and war that is necessary in Islam.

reply to post by TheRedneck

Would that we could better understand each other; may this thread assist in that goal. Thank you OP, for your insights.

Thank you ,too.

Your reply is about 100% accurate and explains why we think how we think today.

In fact , that former dictators of Iran which were supported and installed by UK and US were all fighting Majlis (Iranian parliment) because they were afraid about their monarchy and their puppeteers.

I am sure you have read about project Ajax and how they toppled Iranian prime-minister who fought for the oil of Iran and returned the favors to the nation.

We celebrate the anniversary ,still.

And there are many other events that shows how US govt is still trying to keep Iran retarded and dependent country. Just like Saudi Arabia , Kuwait , Jordan , Libya , Iraq and Qatar.

These countries lack many infra-structures to achieve scientific developmental and independence. They buy everything they want from west and that is why west wants to keep them their friend.

We like to be developed and independent and free from no-colonialism.

What is wrong with that , really ?

reply to post by halfoldman


You shifted my attention to Syria , while I don't have a solution for it. People are fighting each other there.

But in Afghanistan , Iraq and Libya situation is like what I discussed about.

What countries are the "soil"?

My city , my country is my soil.

reply to post by mideast


I used my interpretation of what the Quran said because what it says it says plainly, and that's the interpretation.

As for the wars, we should have just destroyed their countries for their involvement in 9/11 and walked away. I don't believe in nation building, and you can't change those people because they are what they are. They don't care about peace, or the western nations, but they'll take whatever you have to offer and let you think they appreciate it.

reply to post by Fromabove

Originally posted by Fromabove
I used my interpretation of what the Quran said because what it says it says plainly, and that's the interpretation.

Originally posted by Fromabove
I have read the Quran and I will tell you that Jihad in the sense that Islam holds it is the struggle to dominate and eventually rule the world under a total Islamic government and religion (which is one and the same).

In the Quran, they are instructed to go into the lands of the enemy (all who are not muslim) and wait until such time as you have sufficient numbers to wage Jihad. Live among them, grow in number, eat their sustenance and then fight and overtake them.

You must have a very creative mind and active imagination, then, because the Quran says none of that.

Originally posted by Fromabove
As for the wars, we should have just destroyed their countries for their involvement in 9/11 and walked away. I don't believe in nation building, and you can't change those people because they are what they are. They don't care about peace, or the western nations, but they'll take whatever you have to offer and let you think they appreciate it.

Supporting the wanton slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocents? So you're a jihadi not only in the sense that mideast meant it, but also in the sense that you probably take it. Cool.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by Fromabove

 

Originally posted by Fromabove
I used my interpretation of what the Quran said because what it says it says plainly, and that's the interpretation.

Originally posted by Fromabove
I have read the Quran and I will tell you that Jihad in the sense that Islam holds it is the struggle to dominate and eventually rule the world under a total Islamic government and religion (which is one and the same).

In the Quran, they are instructed to go into the lands of the enemy (all who are not muslim) and wait until such time as you have sufficient numbers to wage Jihad. Live among them, grow in number, eat their sustenance and then fight and overtake them.

You must have a very creative mind and active imagination, then, because the Quran says none of that.

Originally posted by Fromabove
As for the wars, we should have just destroyed their countries for their involvement in 9/11 and walked away. I don't believe in nation building, and you can't change those people because they are what they are. They don't care about peace, or the western nations, but they'll take whatever you have to offer and let you think they appreciate it.

Supporting the wanton slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocents? So you're a jihadi not only in the sense that mideast meant it, but also in the sense that you probably take it. Cool.

edit on 3-6-2013 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

I'm not even going to rebut you on what the Quran says because you know what it says, and it says kill the Christian and the Jew and overcome them and all of the infidels, and do it by the sword.

And no, I don't support the killing of innocents because they are and were not innocent. They are innocent by Islamic standards so in your eyes and the eyes of Islam they are innocent. But to the west they were terrorist harboring nations that sought to harm the United States and so punishing them for that effort was justice.

Bush somehow got the idea that they were really followers of the religion of peace, but then he only heard of the stuff that was speaking good of neighbors and how allah has no compulsion of religion. But he doesn't understand abrogation so that all of the things about killing and taking what your right hand possesses take precedence over what was said and is in force. So he thought we'll just spend a trillion dollars, give'em all of our sophisticated weaponry and all the food they can eat and even rebuild what we destroyed for them, then perhaps they'll like us and be our friends. All of it was nonsense. In Islam you can't be the friend of the infidel. But the Quran does teach that it's ok to deceive them into thinking they are and to lie to them in order to achieve the final goal of domination and rule of the world.

Those bearded rag headed extremists ready to blow themselves up,are in no way representing Muslims or Islamic ideologies...They are just a bunch of payed ignorant fanatics who do different missions for different clients,they have nothing to do with real Islam, jihad or Hezbollah ,etc...The overall image that the west has portrayed of Islam is been overly exaggerated to say the least....The same thing is happening in the eastern media when they evilize almost anything west does and paint Americans/British with blood dropping out of their claws while biting into an oil refinery with people still falling down from it...The fact is that the governments and media like to fabricate enemies and bad guys to sell arms,redirect peoples attention from real problems and unite them under one flag and to keep masses busy watching news and entertainments while consuming their products and feeling guilty, confused! and afraid of big bad bearded terrorists.

Originally posted by shapur
Those bearded rag headed extremists ready to blow themselves up,are in no way representing Muslims or Islamic ideologies...They are just a bunch of payed ignorant fanatics who do different missions for different clients,they have nothing to do with real Islam, jihad or Hezbollah ,etc...The overall image that the west has portrayed of Islam is been overly exaggerated to say the least....The same thing is happening in the eastern media when they evilize almost anything west does and paint Americans/British with blood dropping out of their claws while biting into an oil refinery with people still falling down from it.

..The fact is that the governments and media like to fabricate enemies and bad guys to sell arms,redirect peoples attention from real problems and unite them under one flag and to keep masses busy watching news and entertainments while consuming their products and feeling guilty, confused! and afraid of big bad bearded terrorists.

I know what you mean. It was amazing at how the media was able to pull off the 9/11 attacks, hollywood couldn't have matched that (I'm joking). As far as I'm concerned, If the man next to me is about to attack some innocent woman and rape her and kill her and I only stand there and watch and do and say nothing, I am just like the man next to me because I helped him do his evil deed by my inaction. So as far as I'm concerned they're all the same. When I see Christian churches and people having the same freedoms afforded to muslims in the western lands I might change my opinion, but don't wait for it because it will never happen.

Originally posted by mideast
Jihad is a name for an instruction. This instruction tells Muslims that although this world is not stable and we will travel from this world , but we(Muslims) should stand up for the rights that god has granted us. .

Like the 'right' to force others to be Muslim or be treated as second class citizens (dhimi) .. or even to die? You are sugar coating 'Jihad'. It's a heck of a lot more dangerous to civilization than you are trying to make it out to be.

"Jihad' - the personal struggle to do right - no problem. Excellent.
'Jihad' - the rest that builds off that - MAJOR problem. Not okay.

Originally posted by mideast
No one said Islam is a religion of being stillness or surrendering.
It values are based on logic and common sense.

The way it treats women is not logic or common sense.
The way it treats homosexuals is not logic or common sense.
The way it treats those who are not muslim ... like in Saudi Arabia where the rosary and bible are banned ... is not logic or common sense.
etc etc etc

I don't find much logic and common sense in the Old Testament ... nor in the Qu'ran.
The illogic outweighs the logic. IMHO

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

The Ajax project 1952 was the only involvement in Iranian affairs that the US has publicly admitted....But since then,there were numerous occasions of CIA,Mossad,Mi6 interferences and sabotages in Iran from terrorist activities and espionage to drones and cyber attacks,,not to mention the use of non stop international propaganda against Iran...Islamic Ideology is much larger than Khamenei or anybody else...He is not a god,,he is just trying to do what any patriotic leader would do for his country...What!,,you expecting him to bow down to your desires and shake his tail while you are throwing him a bone, much like a lot of other puppets?...It is just not gonna happen my friend..I am sure he doesn't want to end up like,Saddam,Ghaddafi,Mobarak,Ordogan... or other "friends"of the west.neither do the people of Iran want to head on to that direction.

reply to post by Fromabove

Originally posted by Fromabove
I'm not even going to rebut you on what the Quran says because you know what it says

I do, yes, and you apparently don't.

Originally posted by Fromabove
And no, I don't support the killing of innocents because they are and were not innocent. They are innocent by Islamic standards so in your eyes and the eyes of Islam they are innocent. But to the west they were terrorist harboring nations that sought to harm the United States and so punishing them for that effort was justice.

Yes, just kill all the farmers and sheep-herders and peasants and city dwellers and nomads and businessmen and engineers and builders and miners and carpenters and their spouses and their children. KILL KILL KILL and then walk away. Destroy "their" country for "their" involvement in 9/11, as you said, and "nation-building" can go to hell, because "those people" are what they are, and that can't be changed.
I'm trying my best to be restrained in my language right now, so....Congratulations on providing your amazing perspective!