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Morality Is Relevant

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posted on Nov, 6 2004 @ 01:44 PM
First of all thank you for your replying to my questions.

Originally posted by winker
First of all in respect to fertilized embryos The Brave new World you envision tampers with something Jehovah God intended mankind not to tinker around with. God makes no mistakes and is forever truthful in his dealings.

Hermaphrodites, sickle cell, etc. lead to me to conclude differently. Although I have no belief in a higher power - I like to think if there was one - our intelligence was also a gift and with that intelligence we have the capacity to great things, as well as destructive. Heart transplants, bone marrow therapy - you name it - a product of god's grace.

It should also be noted that if the bible teaches us anything it is that god is inconsistent and prone to flights of fancy from time to time - very human traits if you ask me.

Homosexuality has never been proved to be anything "BUT" learned behavior.

I have never seen any peer reviewed study to verify this claim. But let's hypothesize that it is - when does "free agency" come into play? It is beyond arrogance for anyone to force the supposed will of god on anyone when god himself provided for each to make his own choice and to follow his own path.

Marry for love and companionship, Children are a blessing to cherish not to discard like trash. Children teach you responsibility...

This part of your comment is almost verbatim of something a friend of mine, who happens to be gay and in a long-term loving relationship, said to me once. (We were reading an article about a couple who had killed their child.)

Nothing is higher than Biblical Law! My family structure is Jehovah God first Family second Constitutional Law third and job fourth

I know many who subscribe to this belief - personally, I can't even imagine putting a deity ahead of my children. But I do thank you for clarifying your early post for me. It does give me some insight into how and why you have the opinions you do.

For now we will agree to disagree. For me it is not that morality is relevant, because I think it is relevant, but it is also very subjective.


[edit on 11/6/04 by Bleys]

posted on Nov, 6 2004 @ 01:49 PM
Well winker, your "god" "Jehova" is not everyone elses "God" Running government based on someones personal religious belief system is called a theocracy.

[edit on 6-11-2004 by RedOctober90]

posted on Nov, 6 2004 @ 01:56 PM
Just curious here winker is other religions Muslims, Buddists, etc; gonna be allowed in your brave new USA? How about unbelievers? Will business be allowed to stay open on sunday?Will we burn witches and stone homosexuals like it says in the good book? Will we kill the rapist AND the victom too?

I will defend your right to whatever belief you want will you do the same for me? Or does only YOUR belief count?

posted on Nov, 6 2004 @ 02:15 PM
Ok, come on now guys.

There is a difference between wanting to have the government follow you specific religious beliefs before anything else, and wanting the government to change because of what you believe.

Because something is in line with certain religions does not mean we should steer clear of it. That is rather self-defeating to do the opposite of whatever religion says.

That'd be a pretty confussed country.

So why lump all of the latter in with the former?

posted on Nov, 6 2004 @ 02:23 PM

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
There is a difference between wanting to have the government follow you specific religious beliefs before anything else, and wanting the government to change because of what you believe.

So why lump all of the latter in with the former?

The ultra right religious wing of this country thinks that because Bush won they now have a mandate. Winker's comment that biblical law should supercede constitutional law is frightening to say the least.

CNN is reporting that certain groups are seeking to keep Specter from serving as Head of the Judiciary committee. I do not believe that the majority of christians or republicans for that matter share the same belief system as winker and seek to set aside the constitution.

Something to watch for in the coming weeks.


posted on Nov, 6 2004 @ 02:28 PM
I got the feeling that winker is just playing around we all of us, in his "extreme radical religious views"

posted on Nov, 6 2004 @ 02:28 PM
KJ unless I am wrong what winker is wanting is Biblical law as the law of the land and if you support that then you are wrong too.

This country has dozens if not hundreds of religions and NONE of them should be the law of the land.

As I said I would fight for your rights to believe as you wish should I have to follow yours?

They already have countries that religion and Government are the same, we are fighting a war with them right now.

And to come in and claim Bible law overides the Constitution is WRONG

[edit on 6-11-2004 by Amuk]

posted on Nov, 6 2004 @ 03:16 PM
Of course it's wrong. But things like pro-small government aren't really biblical at all, so most of the nuts and bolts are out.

We are only really talking about social issues here. The Federal Government needs to have their hands taken off of most social issues besides the criminal ones (which might include abortion).

And yes, MOST christians do NOT follow the extreme Christians. Would you say it fair to say that Christians are responcible for killing abortion doctors, so we are all ypocritical killers?

No, unfair.

posted on Nov, 6 2004 @ 04:12 PM

Originally posted by KrazyJethro Would you say it fair to say that Christians are responcible for killing abortion doctors, so we are all ypocritical killers?

No, unfair.

Of course not even here in my hometown when I had my surgery and STILL havent been released to go back to work THREE different churches WITHOUT being asked took up collections, amounting to around a thousand dollars to help us out. Christians get a bad rap for the same reason Muslims get a bad rap, not speaking out against the extremeists in your group.

One of the churches that collected money for us also holds a book burning every year and are convinced that pokie man cartoons are spreading satans word. They also held a prayer gathering with all the blacks (and whites I am proud to say) when the KKK tried to have a rally in our town(the KKK was laughed out of town)

What I am trying to say is for the most part they are wonderful neighbors and are certianly free to there beliefs but I do not share them and as I should not tell them how to live neither should they tell me. I am not even saying people should not vote their beliefs I do every election why should you not vote your religious beliefs?

The issue is not as black and white as most would like to believe. They are idiots on both sides some have a fit if a religious theme is used during Christmas and some think every "heathen" should be stoned to death and the answer as always lies somewhere in the middle. A picture of Jesus is not gonna kill anyone any more than a statue of Budda, etc. But a Buddist child should not be forced to pray to a Christian God in school either.

Both sides seems to forget that they can be a middle ground, they need to lighten up a bit and understand we are all different and NO ONES beliefs should be forced on the other.

From either side

posted on Nov, 6 2004 @ 05:21 PM
Of course these views are a bit extreme.

But I do think we have a powerful chance to do something different than Europe and Canada. They chose the easier, make everyone happy, socialistic route; at the expense of morality. We here in the US with our divided country have held out longer than these other countries, we can see that thier way isn't the only way.

This thread will probably make me sound like a religious zealot, but let me assure you I'm not. I just feel that the way these other countries are doing things isn't the only or best way they could be done. They certanly aren't the best thing for a country as large and diverse as the United States.

posted on Nov, 6 2004 @ 05:47 PM
LostSailor - I think we agree on two things.

1) There is usually more than one way to do things in life, there are roads taken and roads not taken
2) What is good for a country is not necessarily good for another

However... you do raise two important points that I'd like to discuss.

1) Diversity. I think we all agree that there are basic rules of conduct that individuals must agree with in order to function in society. However, the challenge in a diverse country like the United States or even Canada is to decide what are the bases of morality. I'm a French Canadian, which means I'm of Catholic heritage, if not of creed and practice. My moral code is not the same as the moral code of someone living in Alberta, for example. How do we factor in regional differences?

2) What is morality? Is there a universal moral code? And how do we define what should be part of that moral code? How do we define when a person or a group is moral or immoral?

For example... I personally believe in not harming others, in any way, physical or emotional. I believe in generosity and charity. However, I do believe in sex before marriage and in letting homosexuals live their lifestyle as I enjoy mine. Does that make me a moral or immoral person?

Or is morality in the eye of the beholder?

posted on Nov, 6 2004 @ 06:12 PM
I disagree with that America is a good nation high in morals! It only has the morals it wants no homosexuals marrying, even though it seems to me they would like that a little better than living together without being married, no abortion, even though unwanted children are found in garbage bags, dumps and buried alive......all while they also want their pornography, drunken fun, sex without marriage, free music, cheating on taxes, ...I actually have an employee that told me she voted to not legalize same sex marriage because it's against the bible.....but this girl lives with her boy friend, gets drunk every weekend, they rent porn, she always lying to her least half of America is very hypocritical!

posted on Nov, 6 2004 @ 06:15 PM

"HOMOSEXUAILITY IS A LEARNED LIFESTYLE" ; the biggest lie of all is that you are born that way. This liberal hooey comes straight out of the "PIT OF HELL" and this is exactly where you are headed if you refuse to repent of your wicked and perverse lifestyle! Homosexuals destroy the quality of life for all of us by polluting the blood supply we all one day may need to depend on. Hepatitis follows closely as well as drug resistant tuberculosis that is prevalent in the adherants of this Sortid Festering Amoral Lifestyle they have chosen.


Now I have no proof, but here's my take on HOMOBLAHBLAHBLAH:

We, meaning human beings, are ALL bi-sexual by nature. A strange silence enters the thread

I know I'm not the first person to suggest this. Everyone is attracted to everyone on some level. Obviously it is more pronounced in some more than others. There is no way in hell it is learned.
I'm to lazy myself, but I thought that pretty much every species on the planet has gay in it. Gay geese? Gay Llama? Gay shrimp? Okay that was to far. Just trying to make ya'll smile.

Seriously, homosexuality is part of who we are. Then again I have been labelled a loser by the Terminator, so I could be all wrong.

Sound to me sir you a making judgements all on your own. Are you the supposed Jehovah? Maybe you should check out my sig.

posted on Nov, 6 2004 @ 06:16 PM

Originally posted by Otts

Or is morality in the eye of the beholder?

That is your answer, we interpret thing in the way we like them and individual interpretation is diferent individual by individual.

Religion is not bad is how people used religion what is bad.

God is not bad is what people does in his name to harm others what is bad.

posted on Nov, 6 2004 @ 07:52 PM
Being a veteran had more to do with how I viewed this election than the other social issues did. The Anti-American aspect of Kerry's actions were of such gross amoral activities that I could never abide his treatment of prisoners held captive by your liberal heroines Mary McCarthy and Jane Fonda plus all the lies he soundly told while they could not defend themselves. This is probably 85%of the reason for the Red Map. This is the moral Imperative people made their decision on!

posted on Nov, 6 2004 @ 07:54 PM
Stop. Just stop right in your tracks. The moment in time that we dragged God into this mess we are in was the moment that we failed.

What exactly have we failed?

Democracy, freedom, liberty, justice, oh, and of course, we failed God too.

Sure, demons walk on earth, but honestly, how many gays have you met whose supreme priority is to burn Christians and slash the name of God?

We're supposed to be running a country here, not policing the morals, values, and dreams of everyone around us according to a God you fear and a book we will never understand.

America was supposed to stand for freedom, but by the looks of it, all it seems to stand for now is a fighting chance to destroy someone who has never harmed you and to make them just as afraid as you are.

I hate the fact that I live in a nation who fears everyone around them so much, the only option is to oppress them, that I live in a nation who God might as well have turned away from.

Morality IS relevant, but whose "morality" are you living by? When was the last time that calling someone else disgusting, and ripped straight from the 'pits of hell' moral in any way whatsoever? Maybe I'm not up to date on this "politcal" agenda, I'm plenty up to date on politics. But that's not what this has to do with, is it? That's not what this country is used for any more, huh? Our candidates aren't praised or slandered because of their political agenda, all we seem to care about is how f******* often they go to church and how many hail marys they say before they go to bed. All we care about is how many gays they want to lock up, how many muslims they want to sacrifice, and how "clean" and "moral" they want to make my country. Yeah, you self-righteous, IMMORAL, hatred-ridden bastards, ITS MY COUNTRY TOO. Its all our country. America should be just as beautiful and liberated for me as it should the transexual who lives next door, and the conservative across the street.

Basically, I am disgusted. I'm sorry I became heated, cursed, and threw some mud. I am just....dissappointed.

posted on Nov, 6 2004 @ 07:59 PM
You have voted Scat for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

posted on Nov, 6 2004 @ 08:06 PM
The moral imperative comes from the Moral Majority; yall just happen to be on the losing side and know this also winning does not make me right it just points out the fact that large turnouts do not equate to a large liberal vote anymore. Face it and deal with it you lost!

posted on Nov, 6 2004 @ 08:07 PM
scat you have my vote too, you sumarized it the way it is, this nation has given their vote not for the better of the nation but for an idiology and that will not fix our economy or will take care of our nation, faith will not put food in the table.

posted on Nov, 6 2004 @ 08:09 PM

What you said about faith putting food on the table is very true. Sadly, it seems as if we keep letting someone else's God run our "free" land, it could end up that way.

And it seems as if too many of us will be going hungry.

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