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Are Native Americans Considered Foreigners in America?

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posted on May, 29 2013 @ 09:44 PM
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Originally posted by intrptr

The second is a million "Cowboy and Indian" movies and TV shows that fed us biased information when we were growing up in the 60's in America.

I mean growing up in white, middle class America. Children's toys were repeating rifles, six guns, and knives. We emulated John Wayne and slew the "savages". Nobody wanted to be the Indians and the cowboys always won.

Since we didn't talk about the Natives much in school and all the history lessons that were imparted were one sided, it was easy to let that information vacuum be filled with John Wayne slaughtering the "Heathens" or "Red skins" or "cut throats".


it is very true that the Wild West was romanticized by the writers of the time. Then proceeded by Hollywood.

All the more reason to remeber the real history.




posted on May, 29 2013 @ 09:44 PM
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Originally posted by ParanoidAmerican
reply to post by frazzle
 


No you are right the native population at that time likely drove out the first settlers and history repeated itself. Now if you want to talk about the practices used for taking over a nation look to Spain for brutality. We were civil compared to them. I don't claim that what white Europeans did was right in anyway, but we know now that there were others here before Columbus, before the Vikings, and before our Native populace.


That is classic "passing on the guilt". They did it to someone else so it was only right for us to do it to them. If we were to return all the land back to the original owners ~ well how would that work?

But I agree that no one could hold a candle to the Spanish for being unmitigated barbarians and actually the holiday most American Indians hate the most is Columbus Day.

I think its the Mandan that had blue eyes and are said to have interbred with the Vikings in the far distant past.



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 09:45 PM
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reply to post by KeliOnyx
 


The English settlers however brought with them the idea of individual property ownership and exclusive control of the resources therein.

Not only was the idea of land "ownership" foreign to the natives, so was the idea of money as exchange for goods or services. Why would anyone save up more than they need? "Greed" was unknown to them.

Another was the idea of "rent". In the tribes, no one is homeless, or hungry. Within the "tribe" those needs were provided for.

Living off the land and the animals that grazed it. It was the "Settlers" (what a gentile euphemism) that cut down the forests and killed all the animals. Up until that point there was enough for all the Natives that lived here.

Sure they fought, but they didn't "wipe each other out". Thats Insane.



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 09:48 PM
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reply to post by XaniMatriX
 

Evidence shows that tribes waged war regularly and were not as peaceful as once thought...

www.nebraskastudies.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink">The Crow Creek Massacre
My sister dug this sight all were killed in combat or executed with blows to the head including women and children. There is even evidence that the women were in combat as well.

edit on 29-5-2013 by ParanoidAmerican because: (no reason given)


Pic of the mass grave here
edit on 29-5-2013 by ParanoidAmerican because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 09:49 PM
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reply to post by intrptr
 


The concept of land ownership was also foreign to the English - until the 'rulers' stole common land during enclosure.

The English lived off the ' common land' which meant communal/

The process of enclosure done by force, by th e 'rulers' caused violence and bloodshed, and remains among the most controversial areas of agricultural and economic history in England

Many of the early 'americans' the english colonists - came from villages where common land was used by all - it was not individually owned at all.

But I do agree the settlers did murder the wolfs and buffalo - but most of this happened in the 1800s.

It was not done by the early English settlers in the original colonies.


edit on 29-5-2013 by HelenConway because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 09:50 PM
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reply to post by HelenConway
 


I think that part of the reason why there may be confusion is difference in worldview. I will do my best to explain this as I had it explained to me. Tribes did exist in territories in which they inhabited. However, they did not "own" the land and land ownership is still considered to be kind of a gross thing to many Nat Am. Even those that "own" homes feel like they "own" the home but not necessarily the land that the home rests upon. The land, itself, belongs to no single thing but is merely "used" by them and all other things inhabiting it. Another issue is that not all the tribes are the same in their belief systems and living arrangements. For instance, before Scorched Earth and the Long Walk, the Hopis resided in pueblos atop mesas and the Navajo (Dine) were migratory. And yes, they'd fight each other. That's why the US government put the Hopi on pueblos in the center of the Navajo Reservation. Joke was out there that they probably did it in the hopes that the two tribes would kill each other off (Nat Am humor). The point is, every tribe has their own customs, beliefs, and practices but the view of land ownership, by the tribe or by an individual, was something that was entirely foreign for nearly all the tribes to the best of my knowledge. They either shared it or fought over resources. In a way, it's precisely that outlook that burned them when we arrived.



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 09:54 PM
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reply to post by WhiteAlice
 


I understand this - but thank you for sharing clarifying it,
What I was trying to say is that - the early English [ normal] people undertood these concepts.

Most of the land grabs of Indian lands was not done by the early colonists in New England,- talking 1500s and 1600s.

Most happened in the 1800s, did they not ?



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 09:54 PM
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Originally posted by HelenConway

I realise that the more I know through study - the truth is the more I come to realise that I know nothing.


I have felt the same exact way.

This is what I do enjoy about this website. If you can understand how to separate the meat from the potatoes, so to say, you can find enlightenment on so many things you were previously oblivious to which will open more possibilities for your mind to help further your individual growth and development.



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 09:57 PM
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reply to post by IntrinsicMotivation
 


This is sad but true, Luckly i grew up in a place where native americans havent forgotten their old traditions.

This is no suprise since the American government denies everything they do. They didnt even apologize when they stoped discriminating on African-Americans. and till this day NO ONE! in the government has admitted and taken the blame for such discrimination or gone to trial for crimes against humanity. So you really think they care about the Native Americans?

But thats what they do and thats what they've put in the system. Pretend like nothing ever happened, brainwashing us into thinking that the US debt does not exist and everything is ok.
Trying to make us forget the past or find some excuse to forget what horrible things they did so that nobody takes the blame Its all propaganda, but the people that suffered and still suffer will never forget what they've done to them



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 09:58 PM
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reply to post by frazzle
 

No no that is not it...all I am saying is that this is how human history has been (and likely will stay somewhat), we only more recently have recognized displacement of native population as terrible act it is act as a society.

In my State we have Native American Day not Columbus Day..

Mandan I have not studied them much as we have Sioux here mainly I would have to research more about them...I would not find it hard to believe though as we have good evidence the Vikings made it to Minn..

edit on 29-5-2013 by ParanoidAmerican because: (no reason given)


From the Mandan Wiki page....I know Wiki please...
"18th-century reports about characteristics of Mandan lodges, religion and occasional physical features among tribal members, such as blue and grey eyes along with lighter hair coloring, stirred speculation about the possibility of pre-Columbian European contact. Catlin believed the Mandan were the "Welsh Indians" of folklore, descendants of Prince Madoc and his followers who emigrated to America from Wales in about 1170. This view was popular at the time but has since been disputed by the bulk of scholarship.[13]

Hjalmar Holand had proposed that interbreeding with Norse survivors might explain the "blond" Indians among the Mandan on the Upper Missouri River,[14] but in a multidisciplinary study of the Kensington Runestone, anthropologist Alice Beck Kehoe dismissed, as "tangential" to the Runestone issue, this and other historical references suggesting pre-Columbian contacts with 'outsiders', such as the Hochunk (Winnebago) story about an ancestral hero "Red Horn" and his encounter with "red-haired giants".[15] Archaeologist Ken Feder has stated that none of the material evidence that would be expected from a Viking presence in and travel through the American Midwest exists.[16]"
edit on 29-5-2013 by ParanoidAmerican because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 10:00 PM
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reply to post by IntrinsicMotivation
 


All the more reason to remember the real history.


You cannot imagine the shock to my system when I found out everything I had been taught was lies. The struggle in my mind was enormous. We deny and minimize the written "History" of the "Wild West", The "Pioneers" and "Manifest Destiny".

Especially how that relates in regard to the native populations that existed here before the arrival of the Europeans.

They spread disease, lies, false religions and murder everywhere they went. They destroyed the resources and killed the people. I can say that because I am an American from European decent and I am ashamed of most of my heritage or whatever you call it.

Bah! Phooey! intrptr spits repeatedly at nothing, logs off and runs screaming into the woods.



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 10:05 PM
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reply to post by IntrinsicMotivation
 


Wow, quite the read. Excellent information. Very detailed.

I have often had questions myself about the Native Americans. They were here first, but, the white man came in and Molested and Pillaged Everything they stand for. They let their guard down by giving an Inch and losing a mile. They were seriously taken advantage of like a drunk prom date and left out to dry.

It is the epitome of a Greek Tragedy. It is sad that they lived here for 10,000 years or more and was left with "Allotted" Reservations in less than 200 years. Like you, it makes me mad when I hear someone talking trash about the Native Americans. Well, they may have lost the war, but, they sure as hell Slaughtered the White Mans @$$es at the Little Big Horn. Yea Team ! !

In any event Thank You for posting this as it helps to raise awareness of a time and people long forgotten.

On a side note:

I hate to be a stickler but. .. . . you mentioned
"Thanksgiving-------- Has nothing to do with Natives/ it is a celebration of harvest".
Correct me if I am wrong but American History in schools teach that the first thanksgiving was basically a union of Pilgrims and Natives Americans to gather and give thanks. Now I might agree as to the Celebration of Harvest, however, when I think of Thanksgiving, I always think of the Native Americans coming together with the Pilgrims for Damn Good Feast that can't be beat.



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 10:07 PM
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Not that I am trying to promote my music, but I feel music is a powerful tool to reach the people and I write my life through it.

If you listen to my lyrics you will see that I have no hard feelings to others, but want to help shed light on that which people do not want to look at.




posted on May, 29 2013 @ 10:13 PM
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Originally posted by ParanoidAmerican
reply to post by frazzle
 

No no that is not it...all I am saying is that this is how human history has been (and likely will stay somewhat), we only more recently have recognized displacement of native population as terrible act it is act as a society.

In my State we have Native American Day not Columbus Day..

Mandan I have not studied them much as we have Sioux here mainly I would have to research more about them...I would not find it hard to believe though as we have good evidence the Vikings made it to Minn..

edit on 29-5-2013 by ParanoidAmerican because: (no reason given)


I don't know what state you're in but I remember a huge story several years ago about a farmer in Minnesota who was using a rune stone as a stepping stone into his milk house. IIRC, some college student saw the marks on it and took it t his college. It became a big deal. And as you'd guess, the "experts" tried their darnedest to disparage both the farmer and that stone. It had to be FAKE, dontchaknow!! I just wish we knew what happened to those Vikings, though, whether they went back home or simply blended into the milieu of the people over time.

ETA: just saw your edit on the Mandan and I've gotta ask, should we be surprised that any such stories would be officially "debunked"? If it doesn't fit the official narrative that Columbus discovered America its got to be wrong ~ not that he did.
edit on 29-5-2013 by frazzle because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 10:18 PM
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reply to post by frazzle
 


Well they probably crossed across from the Bering Straits - they walked.

I doubt the long boats would have made it - they just about managed to navigate the north sea,

If they survived they probably assimilated or went the same way as the Roanoke Colonists.

The DNA of many american Indian tribes is actually from what is modern day called Russia / Siberia [ I know this is controversial to some].
edit on 29-5-2013 by HelenConway because: (no reason given)

edit on 29-5-2013 by HelenConway because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 10:19 PM
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reply to post by frazzle
 


I look at it like this the trip over here would have taken months and likely cost some lives. I think returning would have been a terrible decision. Likely the assimilated into the cultures and produced offspring like those you mentioned. It seems most 'academics' dispute that claim however.



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 10:19 PM
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Originally posted by ShadellacZumbrum

I hate to be a stickler but. .. . . you mentioned
"Thanksgiving-------- Has nothing to do with Natives/ it is a celebration of harvest".
Correct me if I am wrong but American History in schools teach that the first thanksgiving was basically a union of Pilgrims and Natives Americans to gather and give thanks. Now I might agree as to the Celebration of Harvest, however, when I think of Thanksgiving, I always think of the Native Americans coming together with the Pilgrims for Damn Good Feast that can't be beat.


No offense taken. I guess that depends on your experience growing up. That is why I asked for member opinions


I pointed out Presidential Declarations and Proclamations; can you remember them actually being put into effect?

Bush said the whole month of November is supposed to be to honor Natives, followed by Obama 2 years ago stating the same thing and declaring November 26th to now be Native American Heritage Day.

The gov seems confused with this subject, yet still no official day.

Can anyone tell me that November 26th 2012 was referred to or referenced as Native American Heritage Day? At your child’s school play, in the news, Thanksgiving day parade etc?



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 10:23 PM
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reply to post by IntrinsicMotivation
 


What would the USA look like if the Native Americans were asked to form a govt - were back in charge ??
What would be different ?



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 10:25 PM
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Haho - I Greet you!
(Haho is a word used in a form of greeting and spoken by men, like Hello!)

I really enjoyed this post and apreciate what the message is or how i saw it for myself being a full blooded Hočąk Nation(Wisconsin Ho-Chunk-Gra) of the Hųwą Hik’ik’arajera (Elk Clan), its customrarily respectful to say who you are and where you come from and i do not expect others to recognize and i am explaing why the introdction and not some kind of pissing contest.

I grew up living in my parents home who were full blooded as well(blood quantum due to Bureau of Indian Affairs(formlerly of the War Department) within the Department of the Interior of the United States of America, I am from a federally recognized Indian Tribe and by Federal law, we have to be at least one quarter of Indian Blood to qualify as a member of a Indian Tribe such as the Tribe I come from, the Ho-Chunk Nation of Wisconsin.

We have Tribal Enrollment Cards and they have a number and letters and even lately a bar code that is magnetic and this all explains who I am, what tribe is am from, and is used mostly for land held in trust by the United States Of America, through the Department of the Interior and execute all actions by the Bureau of Indian Affairs B.I.A., which through my Father, who has past on. Me and my siblings split up what land he had held in trust, and he recieved Lease money from non-tribal members using the land for whatever purposes since we are not told what is done nor do we have the power to ask for a fee, they give a portion of the money they made from the land use, and we do not know nothing bout that process. Even though technically this is my land(some of it has many owners and they(the United States Government) call that fractionated land and soon to be bought at their rate and we have no say again, to even selling the land, if you do not like this and refuse money at current market value-it goes to a fund and used at the United States Governments discretion, in case a fractionalted landowner refuses to acknowledge the act of selling the land, at current market value.

Technically, I am a prisoner of war. Even though we was granted citizenship in the re-organization act from congress and be a tax payer, many of my freinds i went to public school with(non tribal members) they always thought we paid no taxes, lived in teepee's and howled at the moon , waiting for the chance to scalp someone.

Same time, everyone speculates and creates theories of who i am and where i come from, even though they are not even close or warm, if i did explain, it would not be believed nor understood. Granted though, the act to assimulate wonk-shiks(Tribal people or Native americans or the Indigenous to this land) and the attempt to enforce genocide on me or my people has almost succeeded. I thank God for that everyday that we are still here.

I often wonder, what would it be like if them that wer sent to explain how to be here, and what is expected of them as they are here. Sad thing, they never even got close, the unseen force(I think is the disease and even the common cold was to much) killed every last one, they never made it and they were the only ones who were responsible for the arrival, like in the past, it happened before. Would we be living in harmony? Would there be a relationship of trust and mutual respect, i mean if someone come to my home, no where to go, nothing to eat. Come on in and sit at the best place in my lodge, eat till you cannot eat no more, and how can i help you.

What does that say?
edit on 29-5-2013 by chachonee because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 10:26 PM
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Originally posted by HelenConway
reply to post by frazzle
 


Well they probably crossed across from the Bering Straits - they walked.

I doubt the long boats would have made it - they just about managed to navigate the north sea,

If they survived they probably assimilated or went the same way as the Roanoke Colonists.

The DNA of many american Indian tribes is actually from what is modern day called Russia / Siberia [ I know this is controversial to some].
edit on 29-5-2013 by HelenConway because: (no reason given)

edit on 29-5-2013 by HelenConway because: (no reason given)


If the stories are true, I'm leaning toward assimilation. Of course Small Pox decimated the Mandan people so we'll never know.



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