How to Rethink Thoughts!

Originally posted by Astrocyte
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Rethinking thoughts is still thinking - and thinking is dualistic - it can never make it's mind up. One minute it says good then next it says bad. Can you trust words to help you find the true answer?

You're getting to philosophical about it.

You have to think in order to correct your thinking. The paradox is - your new way of thinking draws you away from over thinking. The problem isn't thinking persay, but over-thinking.

Using the same system to cure the system will not work. The system is corrupt and you believe that you can use the same corrupt system to correct it - honestly - it does not work.
What one must do is step outside the system and study the system. One must just be aware of the thoughts as they arise and just watch them - become the observer of thought and don't identify with them. Notice how the thoughts just appear, they just bubble up out of nowhere.
Thoughts can be very disturbing if you do not realize that you are not doing them - thoughts just happen and if the thoughts are taken personally they will disturb.
Just notice the space the thoughts appear in.

When you discover that you are the space - you will be peace itself.

Morpheus say - "There is no spoon"

reply to post by Astyanax

If your response above is truthful, I urge you to alert the medical profession right away. It appears that over a century of research into the aetiology and treatment of mental illness, as well as the testimony of sufferers, is misguided and wrong. We can cure ourselves of mental illness merely by thinking ourselves better.

Sarcasm noted. But, why you're being sarcastic, as if there aren't research professors at leading universities conducting studies on writing books on this subject, eludes me.

Perhaps you should read into it.

The basis of the claim is in the brains plasticity. It's a two way street. Experience sculpts the brain - this can be outward-inward i.e. environmentally driven, or conversely, it can generated by a motivated mind.

It will probably sell well; there are plenty of desperate people out there looking for relief – or even the hope of relief – from the misery of mental illness.

I'm sorry that you're struggling still. Motivation and belief can do wonders.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Using the same system to cure the system will not work. The system is corrupt and you believe that you can use the same corrupt system to correct it - honestly - it does not work.

Right now you're using the "system" to convey your insights to me. How do you reconcile this fact with your disapproval of "dualism"?

I guess you misunderstood what I meant by "too philosophical". I wasn't deriding your insight. In fact, in a earlier post, I mentioned your trenchant statement that its as if we all walk around with an image of ourselves in mind - that's true, and that's a prime source of the conflict.

But I don't think it's necessary to go further and make dogmatic statements like it is all caused by "dualism". All science is based upon the appreciation of "the system". We take it seriously enough to structure our thoughts - and in the process condition our brains - in analysis. Our brains are structured to handle finite logical issues. We can carry both perspectives in mind when we act, whether morally, or spontaneously.

For example, all morality proceeds from an analysis of context, which is a finite, logical analysis of variables. If for instance my wife wakes up after a hard nights sleep, and I don't take this fact into account for her irritability, I am not acting correctly, because this piece of information justifies her change in mood. Since I'm feeling better, I'm the one in a unique position to tolerate her grouchiness. All of this involves breaking down the picture into relevant "packets" of information. She's being a bitch, but she didn't sleep well, which explains her feelings. With this information in hand, I can adjust my response. If on the other hand there were no conceivable reason for her being rude, I would be tempted to upbraid her, or at the very least, return the sentiment.

What I've suggested in this thread is that it is helpful to take a few steps back, analyze yourself as a living system, peer beneath the surface of the thoughts in order to reach the ground of feeling. You're essentially saying the same thing, so essentially, were in agreement on that.

What I've noticed is, in the case of anxiety, there's oftentimes a thought which is carried in mind without the minds even being aware of it. It's like a notation of the emotion, an emissary to consciousness - but consciousness on the whole is distracted from the king who sent it. This is why it is is crucial to depersonalize. The thought is the personal content - it is the "facts" and "data" we live by. This is why I appreciated your comment about walking around with your self image in mind, or a mirror, as it were. This jibes with my experience. When you're in a uncomfortable social setting, the external setting rockets associations into consciousness in a split second. Now, you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. The thought stimulates the feeling which in turn excites the thought. This is all due to the self reflection reflex. Instead of holding to your previous feeling, the self reflection reflex reminds you of your "objective" presence. The setting spurs a thought with it's unique feeling tone. Now, instead of being settled in a feeling, you are anchored to a thought which chains you to a feeling. The way to reverse this process is to "be in yourself". Return to the simplicity of the emotion, to the state of feeling good. Feeling good produces all sorts of thoughts, expressions, behaviors and styles, but it do so with a certain disassociation. You're inward focused, instead of outwards. You're stabilized in a emotion, a feeling tone, instead of being tethered to an obsessive thought.

Originally posted by Astrocyte
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Using the same system to cure the system will not work. The system is corrupt and you believe that you can use the same corrupt system to correct it - honestly - it does not work.

But I don't think it's necessary to go further and make dogmatic statements like it is all caused by "dualism".

I can't find where I made the dogmatic statement - 'it is all caused by dualism'.
However, until oneness is realized there will always be conflict because the mind is dual. Only when the space around thought is found will true peace be known.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

I can't find where I made the dogmatic statement - 'it is all caused by dualism'.

It's the logical inference from:

Rethinking thoughts is still thinking - and thinking is dualistic - it can never make it's mind up.

No offense, but you have to work on clarifying your position. One second, you say all thinking is dualistic, yet you can say:

The trick is to not believe what the thoughts say.

Now, isn't the act of "not believing what your thoughts say", a type of thought? When the thought enters your mind, an internal dialogue occurs which advises you "not to listen to the thought". This is a type of thinking, albeit, a different and more self-supportive one.

But then you confuse your thinking again by saying:

Using the same system to cure the system will not work.

But isn't THINKING i.e. "I will not think that thought" itself a feature of the "system"? If the system "is corrupt", as you say, the only logical solution, then, is to kill yourself, or, on a less dire note, accept catatonia.

This is what happens when you mix your philosophical beliefs ("the problem is dualism") with psychological insights. The psychological insights are legitimate. It's true that we need to withdraw from the first person experience and analyze ourselves impersonally. But when you start making metaphysical claims that it is the "system" which is corrupt, and anything which relies upon the "system" is doomed to failure, you contradict yourself. Because THINKING is a mechanism of the "system". Advising yourself is an act of thinking. You are in fact RETHINKING your thinking.

As I said, the problem isn't so much participating in life, and thus, engaging thoughts, feelings and actions, but rather, becoming so involved in these experiences that you lose your orientation. It's no longer the self looking down upon the self (the acting, participatory part), but the self inextricably involved in it's own reality, without an outer perspective to turn to "correct" any disorientation.