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Paul contradicts Jesus

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posted on May, 30 2013 @ 11:25 PM
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Originally posted by Magister1
It is not hard to find contradictions in modern version of the text. It has been edited, had more than 1/2 of the books removed, and mistranslated so often that it would be surprising if it had any cohesion left. I have always been amazed that people will argue points in the bible, but not take the time to learn to read it in the Greek of the new testament. If you have not read the original version than you have to admit that you do not have a grasp of what it really said:

οὐκ ἔστιν θεὸς νεκρῶν ἀλλὰ ζώντων: πολὺ πλανᾶσθε. Mark 12:27

Part of your error is in the translation of νεκρῶν: destitute of a life that recognizes and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins.
The version that you have quoted translated this word as: the dead.

Also, the word ζώντων means: active, blessed, endless in the kingdom of God
had been translated as: the living. So, in the original Mark 12:27 really meant: He is not the God of the faithless, but the God of the blessed followers.


I just want you to become Catholic at the time God shows the world which Heaven says is "soon." What do you
mean "books removed?" St. Jerome did not agree with Pope Damasus' choices for the Canon but He still
translated them accepting Pope Damasus' God given authority.

The Canon hasn't changed since 382 A.D. when Pope Damasus decided which were the divinely inspired writings. The importance is not Greek or Hebrew but which writings were divinely inspired. When the
Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, they confirmed the Holy Father's choices.

It was only Martin Luther who threw out 7 books of the Canon. He said he was following the Palestinian
OT Canon, actually he tossed them because they showed his new teachings to be false. So not from
God, the Palestinian Jews rejected Christ.




posted on May, 30 2013 @ 11:38 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60


More like reconciling the other writers to Paul

Where does 1 John fit in order wise.

I'm still wrapping my head around the Logos in 1 John, and your idea of "revelatory world-view"

I think John is pretty convinced that Jesus was manifesting the Logos of Life. As for relevance of the person Jesus, I can pretty much bet that as far as John was concerned, he wasn't going to see that in anyone else in his lifetime. So for him, Jesus was it.



posted on May, 31 2013 @ 12:53 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by windword
 

Was Jesus playing dress up when he donned his man suit and sacrificed himself to himself?
No. Jesus did not retain his godhood.


I don't know what that means. I thought that Christians believe that Jesus IS God, or at the very least a piece of God, as in an angle of the trinity.



Are you playing dress up as a human man, when in reality you're a spiritual being?
No, God is a spiritual being. Before we became what we are now, we were not technically "beings". That was why we needed to create a universe, to be beings.

The natural world, or universe, is the physical manifestation of the spirit and is, in reality, a marriage of both.
No. It is the result of thought, but not a direct 'magical' manifestation, where such a thing is not necessarily possible when it comes to the material.

For you to say that God is a spirit and nothing else put limits on your God.
So? That was a choice, so it was a consensual "limit".

As we know it, the universe is without limit, making the universe greater than your God.
The universe is limited by certain physical laws which we may not be necessarily aware of at the moment


That is very Gnostic.



posted on May, 31 2013 @ 07:29 AM
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reply to post by pthena
 

I can pretty much bet that as far as John was concerned, he wasn't going to see that in anyone else in his lifetime. So for him, Jesus was it.
The explanation for my recent odd remarks is that a week ago, I started back up on my research on the whole "the word became flesh" thing in John 1:14, and it starts looking more to me that what it is describing was something that 'infected' a lot of people involved in the Gospel story, and not just Jesus, with his presence and recognition being the catalyst.
I very much agree, that to John, that was a one-off historical event, just like crossing the Red Sea was also, where in 1 John he is saying that you cannot repeat it by wishing.

As for the dating, I would think that it was written when John was the last surviving Apostle.
edit on 31-5-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 31 2013 @ 07:42 AM
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reply to post by windword
 

I don't know what that means. I thought that Christians believe that Jesus IS God, or at the very least a piece of God, as in an angle of the trinity.
Orthodox Trinitarianism is a product of Fourth Century thinking that would seem very ignorant and superstitious to us.
They thought that they were fighting polytheism, which to them seemed a real threat, maybe only because of its then current power and influence.
Paul in Philippians 2 describes Jesus as emptying himself of his god nature.
That would probably seem to contradict my other statement unless you were to believe that he made that choice before creation, to be a god up to a certain point to be later determined.

That is very Gnostic.
I can't think of which variety it would fit.
edit on 31-5-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 31 2013 @ 11:40 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60


John 1:14, and it starts looking more to me that what it is describing was something that 'infected' a lot of people involved in the Gospel story, and not just Jesus, with his presence and recognition being the catalyst

Compare also John 1:9, must be the verse with the most Greek variants.



posted on Jun, 4 2013 @ 04:02 PM
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Perfect for this thread. Jesus speaks of His beloved Paul in this message to Father Melvin Doucette today, an excerpt.

June 4, 2013

ourladyofpei.com...

A reading from the Acts of the Apostles (23:23-35):
Then [the commander] summoned two of the centurions and said, "Get two hundred soldiers ready to go to Caesarea by nine o'clock tonight, along with seventy horsemen and two hundred auxiliaries. Provide mounts for Paul to ride and give him safe conduct to Felix the governor." Then he wrote a letter with this content: "Claudius Lysias to his excellency the governor Felix, greetings. This man, seized by the Jews and about to be murdered by them, I rescued after intervening with my troops when I learned that he was a Roman citizen. I wanted to learn the reason for their accusations against him so I brought him down to their Sanhedrin. I discovered that he was accused in matters of controversial questions of their law and not of any charge deserving death or imprisonment. Since it was brought to my attention that there will be a plot against the man, I am sending him to you at once, and have also notified his accusers to state their case against him before you." So the soldiers, according to their orders, took Paul and escorted him by night to Antipatris. The next day they returned to the compound, leaving the horsemen to complete the journey with him. When they arrived in Caesarea they delivered the letter to the governor and presented Paul to him. When he had read it and asked to what province he belonged, and learned that he was from Cilicia, he said, "I shall hear your case when your accusers arrive." Then he ordered that he be held in custody in Herod's praetorium.

-------------------------------------------------

Below you will find the message of Our Lord and Savior, the Son of God, given to Father Melvin. Jesus spoke to him these words,

"I bless you, My brother Melvin and all My brothers and sisters who accept Me as your Savior who suffered to redeem you. If you are My followers, then indeed I will give you the graces you need to walk with Me every day. Some days will be days of joy and peace, while other days will be days of suffering, both physically and spiritually. Look at Saint Paul. He did not do anything wrong, yet he suffered being taken from one place to another and he had to live in prison for a long time. Yet he accepted all this for love of Me and to join with Me in My suffering. You know at the end he suffered martyrdom in Rome and I welcomed him in Heaven, and now he lives with all the angels and saints. My Mother has a great love for Saint Paul for all that he suffered while on earth. He was a man of wisdom and that is why many of his letters are in the Bible. Read these and learn many things as he was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Ask him to pray for you all. I love you all."



posted on Jun, 4 2013 @ 04:47 PM
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The Canon hasn't changed since 382 A.D. when Pope Damasus decided which were the divinely inspired writings. The importance is not Greek or Hebrew but which writings were divinely inspired. When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, they confirmed the Holy Father's choices.
reply to post by colbe
 



Could you clarify how the dead sea scrolls confirmed the popes choices for the canon? Does your bible have all the different books that have been found included in it? Or are you simply making that assertion based on almost all the books were found and just writing off the rest as "just some literature" that was with them. That really isn't making any sense to me, if the pope was right and the find clarified it you would have either just found books in the bible and nothing more or a bible.



posted on Jun, 4 2013 @ 06:31 PM
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Originally posted by drivers1492



The Canon hasn't changed since 382 A.D. when Pope Damasus decided which were the divinely inspired writings. The importance is not Greek or Hebrew but which writings were divinely inspired. When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, they confirmed the Holy Father's choices.
reply to post by colbe
 



Could you clarify how the dead sea scrolls confirmed the popes choices for the canon? Does your bible have all the different books that have been found included in it?
Or are you simply making that assertion based on almost all the books were found and just writing off the rest as "just some literature" that was with them. That really isn't making any sense to me, if the pope was right and the find clarified it you would have either just found books in the bible and nothing more or a bible.



There were many early writings, someone had to decide which were divinely inspired. The 73 books decided remain the same today. The Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran contained the book of Tobit. A confirmation in our times that Pope Damasus was correct in his choices for the Canon back in 382 A.D.

There are two Old Testament Canons. The Alexandrian and the Palestinian. The Palestinians, afraid of Christianity thew out books Our Lord quoted from most often. Luther followed the Palestinians, his excuse. Those books prove his new heresies are not of God. Tobot was one of them. And well known, Luther threw out Maccabees because Judaism believed in a place of purgation which is Purgatory.

Read a word for word English translation of the first Bible, the Latin Vulgate called the Douay-Rheims Bible. http:/www.drbo.org/ I would buy a paperback of the Douay-Rheims, we will not have the Net forever.

God bless you drivers,

+ + +

St. Jerome considered the seven Deutero-Canonical books to be NOT inspired by God, but he was commissioned by Pope Damasus to translate all 73 books into Latin. Pope Damasus considered the 7 DC books to be inspired by God. Later in 1946, after the finding of the dead-sea scrolls, it was discovered that these 7 DC books were used by the Jews in Alexandria, even in their services. This verifies that Pope Damasus was correct.

It is interesting to note that the Palestinian Jews did not accept the 7 DC books for their version of Holy Scriptures and neither did they accept any of the New Testament. Unfortunately, the Protestants base their Bible on this version which comes from a people who did not accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah.



posted on Jun, 4 2013 @ 08:12 PM
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reply to post by colbe
 


Ok I get where your coming from. I think where we differ would be here



There were many early writings, someone had to decide which were divinely inspired.


I do agree with you on that statement, someone did have to decide. But, unlike you I don't see the amazing feet or gift attributed to this individual to be "the one" to make that decision. Thanks for the clarification of your stance.



posted on Jun, 4 2013 @ 10:54 PM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 


Yes. Paul has a whole different religion than Jesus.



posted on Jun, 4 2013 @ 10:56 PM
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reply to post by NotThat
 


I'm just glad I'm not the only one who sees it.

Looking back, I find it hard to believe that I used to accept this mans word as fact. The differences in teachings are so glaring!



posted on Jun, 6 2013 @ 09:44 PM
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Originally posted by drivers1492
reply to post by colbe
 


Ok I get where your coming from. I think where we differ would be here



There were many early writings, someone had to decide which were divinely inspired.


I do agree with you on that statement, someone did have to decide. But, unlike you I don't see the amazing feet or gift attributed to this individual to be "the one" to make that decision. Thanks for the clarification of your stance.


I don't understand, history shows St. Jerome translated the original writings and holy as he was/is, he
didn't agree with Pope Damasus' choices but accepting humbly the Pope's authority and went ahead and translated the 72 books.

They turned out to be the correct writings.

Who then, show your confirmation, who decided the Canon?

It's historical, Protestant ministers agree and see, it was Damasus.


thanks for your kind reply,


colbe



posted on Jun, 9 2013 @ 06:26 AM
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reply to post by colbe
 





I don't understand, history shows St. Jerome translated the original writings and holy as he was/is, he didn't agree with Pope Damasus' choices but accepting humbly the Pope's authority and went ahead and translated the 72 books. They turned out to be the correct writings. Who then, show your confirmation, who decided the Canon? It's historical, Protestant ministers agree and see, it was Damasus.


I think your misunderstanding my position. I'm not arguing who decided the canon or any of the history concerning it. My questions and concerns stem from your statement that the dead sea scrolls confirmed the canon was correct. Like I pointed out there were more books discovered there than exist in the bible. In order to have that find as proof then everything found should have been in the canon without exception. The texts that are in that find that are not included in the bible.....what are those to you and how do they figure into the confirmation?
My other concern was the acceptance that the particular pope was the one to make the decision of what was the true "divinely inspired" writings.



posted on Jun, 9 2013 @ 07:04 AM
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Originally posted by drivers1492
reply to post by colbe
 





I don't understand, history shows St. Jerome translated the original writings and holy as he was/is, he didn't agree with Pope Damasus' choices but accepting humbly the Pope's authority and went ahead and translated the 72 books. They turned out to be the correct writings. Who then, show your confirmation, who decided the Canon? It's historical, Protestant ministers agree and see, it was Damasus.


I think your misunderstanding my position. I'm not arguing who decided the canon or any of the history concerning it. My questions and concerns stem from your statement that the dead sea scrolls confirmed the canon was correct. Like I pointed out there were more books discovered there than exist in the bible. In order to have that find as proof then everything found should have been in the canon without exception. The texts that are in that find that are not included in the bible.....what are those to you and how do they figure into the confirmation?
My other concern was the acceptance that the particular pope was the one to make the decision of what was the true "divinely inspired" writings.


We disagree friend, I mean friend. God would guide whoever in the choice of the correct writings. It was Pope Damasus. Now who do you believe decided the Canon?

The 72 books the Holy Father chose, have not changed. Fact, not all the writings or "books", the earliest or later discovered as you say...were/are divinely inspired. Holy Scripture is inerrant because it is the written Word of God.



posted on Jun, 9 2013 @ 08:00 AM
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reply to post by colbe
 





We disagree friend, I mean friend. God would guide whoever in the choice of the correct writings. It was Pope Damasus. Now who do you believe decided the Canon? The 72 books the Holy Father chose, have not changed. Fact, not all the writings or "books", the earliest or later discovered as you say...were/are divinely inspired. Holy Scripture is inerrant because it is the written Word of God.


Not sure why you keep asking who decided the canon since I told you I agreed with the history of it.

Let me pose my response a different way so perhaps you will understand my questions better.
1. What made you decided that Damasus was right in his decisions.
2. How does a find of a group of writings that include more than the canon prove the canon is right.



posted on Jun, 9 2013 @ 10:25 AM
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I have read the whole bible, and I am sure there are contradictions.

That's why people cannot take the bible so literally as they do. Yet they can still believe in some things.

After historically reading the book over a month of two and seeing the contradictions I have come to the conclusion that the Hebrews were the people of the true God, and that the record was written as to preserve the history.

But there are two things - the bible was written when the Hebrews were enslaved in Babylon, and some of the stories written are proved to come from ancient civilization before the Hebrews. Even these ancient civilizations suggest the stories go back far in ancient history through written word.

So to think that Noah was in a localized region and doesn't go far back to the last ice age just means that the world of religious falsification has persuaded them to the point of not wanting to do any research about past history before the bible.



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 03:18 AM
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Originally posted by drivers1492
reply to post by colbe
 





We disagree friend, I mean friend. God would guide whoever in the choice of the correct writings. It was Pope Damasus. Now who do you believe decided the Canon? The 72 books the Holy Father chose, have not changed. Fact, not all the writings or "books", the earliest or later discovered as you say...were/are divinely inspired. Holy Scripture is inerrant because it is the written Word of God.


Not sure why you keep asking who decided the canon since I told you I agreed with the history of it.

Let me pose my response a different way so perhaps you will understand my questions better.
1. What made you decided that Damasus was right in his decisions.
2. How does a find of a group of writings that include more than the canon prove the canon is right.


#1 What made you decide the Canon of Scripture is wrong?

#2, Parts of the book of Tobit were found in the DSS. Tobit has always been part of the Canon. Damasus was correct and Martin Luther wrong for pretending to be following the Palestinian Canon.

Here, to better understand...

+ + +

The deuterocanonical books, such as Tobit, Sirach, Baruch, etc, were part of the Scriptures used by the very early first century Christians.

The current Jewish canon that EXCLUDES the deuterocanonical books may very well have been a reaction against the use of these books by Christians.

Among the scrolls, were the writings and records of a community of Jews with strong messianic and apocalyptic expectations that were active from about 150 B.C. to 68 A.D. and who many believe were Essenes.

In addition to scrolls reflecting the life of the Essene community, among the Dead Sea Scrolls were many biblical scrolls, , many copies of books used by Jews as scripture.

Parts of every book of the the Jewish and Protestant Old Testament are included, with the exception of Esther and Nehemiah. In addition, some other books now included in Roman Catholic Bibles were found at Qumran [the site of this Essene community]: Tobit, Ben Sira (also known as Sirach or Ecclesiasticus), and the Letter of Jeremiah (also known as Baruch 6).

All of these deuterocanonical books or parts of books (Tobit, Sirach, and the Letter of Jeremiah) are also found in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures made by Jewish scholars prior to the time of Christ that was used by the early Church and which is the basis for the current Old Testament canon of the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox churches.
It is clear that the Septuagint, which included the deuterocanonical books, was the Bible of the early Christians.

In addition to the evidence from the Septuagint, the biblical scrolls among the Dead Sea Scrolls also testify to the fact that Jews considered some of the deuterocanonical books as Sacred Scripture prior to and during the life of Christ on earth. In fact, the editors of The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible claim that their translation "presents the remains of the books for which there is good evidence that Jews at the time viewed . . . as Sacred Scripture"

All of which brings us to the irony that many Protestants who apply the razor of reform to cutting away the alleged corruptions of medieval Catholicism have in the case of the deuterocanonical books also applied the razor of reform to cut away the practice of the first century Christian Church. Luther's reformation thus extended to targeting practices at the very origin of the Church.



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 04:39 AM
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reply to post by colbe
 


Thanks for expanding on that I think I do understand your position much better. To answer your first question, I don't believe the canon is wrong or right either way really since I don't believe the bible to be an inspired work. I could very well be wrong but at this point I don't believe that I am. Being raised in the protestant church the history of the christian religion still fascinates me and I love to discuss it and get ones views on beliefs though. I appreciate your patience in my questioning of the subject.



posted on Jun, 10 2013 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by drivers1492
reply to post by colbe
 


Thanks for expanding on that I think I do understand your position much better. To answer your first question, I don't believe the canon is wrong or right either way really since I don't believe the bible to be an inspired work. I could very well be wrong but at this point I don't believe that I am. Being raised in the protestant church the history of the christian religion still fascinates me and I love to discuss it and get ones views on beliefs though. I appreciate your patience in my questioning of the subject.


Thanks for your kind reply.

drivers,

The main reason I post at ATS is to share the messages from Heaven. The daily current "private revelation."

I post non-Catholic Christian messages too. Why? There is one end time and we're in it. I was converted/reverted by a message from Heaven so I know they are true. God has and would tell us, warn us, strengthen our faith by speaking through various messengers.

About your thinking the Bible is errant. The same as the messages, why would God create us and NOT
reveal the reason why or explain His plan? That would be quite cruel. Believe. And believe ALL of God's
revelation, the Bible is only the "written Word" of God. There is much more, a list. You realize, everything
was first passed down ORALLY so not everything divinely revealed is found in the written Word. Scripture says this even... Jesus established the faith, the faith, Roman Catholicism gave the world the Bible.

The folks who follow the heresy of "Bible Alone" actually accept the oral teachings called Tradition.
They believe in the Trinity and the Incarnation, as example. Neither words are written in Scripture.

Trust me, no trust Our Lord in prophecy, God is "soon"...I do not know when, His timing but in our lifetime, personally going to show the entire world Roman Catholicism is the faith and ask you to become Catholic. This is going to happen before the anti-Christ and his evil men try to destroy the faith. Watch and see... Look to the Heavens. This "awakening " is to happen when the world is at its worst and Communism comes again. A
prophecy from over 50 years ago. Given before the Berlin Wall fell.


God bless you,

colbe



p.s. daily Catholic messages - www.catholicbinder.com... Yahoo Groups - Seers 2
daily Protestant messages - ft111.com... www.the-christians-forum.com...

bookmark them...




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