Why Buddha says true freedom is freedom of desire...

reply to post by Damsel

Yes, but as has been mentioned many times now, the desire for freedom from suffering is something that one will become detached from as well. That doesn't mean you create a new desire to be free from the previous one, it just means you become detached from that first desire.

It's not a paradox like you seem to be suggesting. It's a normal part of the process. Of course a desire for freedom from desire must come first, only then can anything be done about it.

I understand what you are trying to say. But in my opinion it makes little sense.

You are saying that once the desire for freedom of desire is satiated, all desire will disappear. Then what is compelling one to remain free of desire?

I am playing devil's advocate. Feel free to disregard these arguments. Everyone just seems so blind in their convictions.

Desires can only be found in the Mind. Desire is there, in the Mind. If you wake up to the moment and reside in the moment, you will find that many of your desires loosen their grip on your life. It's pleasant, peace, satisfaction and joy is often felt or experienced (for lack of a better term) when you're in this state of presence.. And if you did not live or dwell within the projections of your Mind, you would not be held hostage by your Desires. They would not suffer you, Nor would you feel the need/urge to desperately entertain them.

So when you tire of playing this mind trick of desire-less desiring.and your unsatisfying life gets to the point when you can not hide it from others or yourself. You can become fertile ground for Truth. Many sages used that koan, as a means to purposely send his devotee on an endless quest. And by tiring and wearing him completely out, prepares him for higher seeing. In that moment of desperation ONLY, can they realize the Nervana of being freed from that bondage and Untruth.

A koan is an effective method of teaching, it's goal is to reveal your non-sense, so that you can find the answer behind the question. And find it within yourself. But it has to be taken seriously, and you have to devote yourself to it 100% if there's any chance of it working. You can't just debate it on a forum and then get up and go back to your everyday mental nonsense. In the early days, Devotee would spend Decades with a master, on a koan like this.

reply to post by soulwaxer

I can honestly say that I am happy and I am free from the desire to live, and even exist.

I call bull. You possess the desire to live, otherwise you wouldn't go through all the effort required to sustain your existence. I don't believe you for a second, otherwise you'd be dead.

It's all about perspective. If you perceive the 3D reality as the only thing there is, you will always end up disappointed and frustrated. But when you are able to see beyond that, you won't have a care 'in the world'.

Your physical incarnation exists in this three dimensional reality, and you are bound by its laws. Wherever else your existence may extend to, you don't know that for a fact. What you do know is that you are in this reality and subject to its physics. Even if some part of you can get away with immaterialism, there is a part of you that can't. And that's the only part of you that can be proven to exist. If I were to cut off your head (as repulsive a prospect as that is) you stop existing as a person and commence your existence as a mundane pile of meat with no voice, no mind, and no soul.

However you see this world, you must interact with it according to its nature, and you must live by its laws, otherwise your body will suffer for your ignorance. It's a wonder you are still alive at all when you feel that way. Do you believe you can fly without wings, as well?

This is all about FEAR! When you have faced the worst of your fears, you will be free from desire.

Being unafraid of fire will not stop it from burning my flesh.

Originally posted by Damsel

Originally posted by Manula
How can you know what joy is if you haven't felt sad?
How can you know what love is if you haven't felt hate?
How can you know what self-esteem is if you haven't felt like the worst person in the world?

We live and learn in the dance of duality, that's how it is, its highly illogical to say otherwise,

Get used to it.

Can you be happy in a world where joy and sadness exist? Of course you can, but you have to accept this world first. as it is.

Then you will be happy, when you learn to love life with its black and white floor, like the masonic pavement.

The first line and last line of this post are complete contradictions. By your admission, you only can be happy if you know suffering. It is not guaranteed. It is not permanent. It is fleeting. Thus, it is not true happiness.

Don't fool yourself into thinking Buddhists want to shut out the bad and only let in the good. That's not the case. We aspire for detachment from all things. To reference a previous post of yours, we do not want "light" nor do we want "dark."

Freedom from suffering is permanent, unending, peace and happiness. How can anything be better? Please answer this question, because I've asked you many times now and you continue to avoid it. To what end should one continue to suffer in order to "grow" or "become strong" or "become wise"? What is the purpose, if not to be free from suffering? What goal is there that is greater than this?

I dont mind some suffering, all the suffering that ive been through made me who i am, it teached me a lot, without it i would be a dumb superficial prick.

I am glad i suffered and i will suffer again,

I love to step the black once in a while it makes me value the white and vice versa.

I wanted to be free from suffering forever, it didn't work, i was on Buddhism, yongey mingyur rinpoche taught me a lot, but iam not on it anymore.
.
I love the concept of flow and adaptability though
I love the compassion
I love the fact that we create our emotions by the way we think of life events

I love Buddhism its the best religion but it detaches people from real life.

Real life is black white and all the colors, there is diversity and if we love it like it is, we stabilize emotionally but still live it with no self imprisoned dogmas

I can suffer and feel pain , now that i doint want to end it anymore, its not scary anymore...
. It feels good to finaly accept that there is no white without black...

reply to post by Itisnowagain

This is existence and until you actually see it end, it is just an idea that it will.

Quit blowing smoke up my dress. "You can't prove I'm wrong, so there!" You are the one making the preposterous and bogglingly whimsical claim that existence is just an idea. Are you just an idea? Are you the meaning, or the physical expression of that meaning? Is your essence simply the thought behind the body, or the body portraying the story? Where do you end and your body begin? Everything your body experiences, you do as well. There is nothing your body has not experienced that does not affect you, and nothing you remember that does not affect your body.

Again, ego is a survival mechanism. A form of self-recognition that allows you to register the activities of your vessel and react accordingly to sustain your survival. Without your vessel, you are nothing to this world. An idea as quickly forgotten as billions who have died before you. Your body is the product of your existence, and your desires will determine how your story ends. Without your ego, you are nothing more than a blank book.

Are you gonna finish writing it, or just sit there and think about how awesome it is to have a blank book that no one cares about and no one will be able to fill in?

I have wanted to not have life but it did not stop it. The desire for the end or the desire for it to never end is a pointless exercise.

That's an insensitive statement. You've obviously never had a friend or family member who committed suicide. Your grasp of reality is woefully incomplete - I keep hoping you'll realize that, and I am consistently disappointed.

What this is never began and will never end.

Let's stick to actual rational conversation and leave the cryptic nonsense to people who aren't interested logical discourse.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
I understand what you are trying to say. But in my opinion it makes little sense.

You are saying that once the desire for freedom of desire is satiated, all desire will disappear. Then what is compelling one to remain free of desire?

The desire for freedom of desire is never actually satiated because it is discarded before it can be satiated. It's an impossible desire to satiate, which is fine because it's purpose is not to be satiated. It's purpose is only to motivate one to discard all desires.
There really isn't anything compelling one to remain free of desire once they get there. It's more of a matter of there's nothing compelling whatsoever in their previous habits of craving and clinging. The idea is that once you don't want anything and are perfectly at peace in the present moment, why would you ever turn away from that?

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
I am playing devil's advocate. Feel free to disregard these arguments. Everyone just seems so blind in their convictions.

I understand, and by all means, continue to play devil's advocate. There's a lot of context that isn't really being discussed yet. I am certainly not enlightened or free from desire myself, and am merely repeating the ideas of others, but I find the ideas quite flawless and worth pursuing and supporting.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by Damsel

 

Yes, but as has been mentioned many times now, the desire for freedom from suffering is something that one will become detached from as well. That doesn't mean you create a new desire to be free from the previous one, it just means you become detached from that first desire.

It's not a paradox like you seem to be suggesting. It's a normal part of the process. Of course a desire for freedom from desire must come first, only then can anything be done about it.

I understand what you are trying to say. But in my opinion it makes little sense.

You are saying that once the desire for freedom of desire is satiated, all desire will disappear. Then what is compelling one to remain free of desire?

I am playing devil's advocate. Feel free to disregard these arguments. Everyone just seems so blind in their convictions.

That's not really an argument. It seems like you're just making up questions to try and throw us off.

That dream of an eternal joy on earth is even selfish, why not share some of the pain and suffering with other mortals?

Eternal light is not here....

You people come to earth and want to live here like you live in the spirit world.

This is world of pain sorrow, pleasure and joy

It has got it all, isn't it wonderful?

Love it like it is and you will feel much better.

Infants cant stand pain and suffering, why don't you grow up?

reply to post by Manula


Buddhism has turned into a fruitless religion and dogma. But don't blame Buddhism...blame the teachers of it. Buddhism's purpose is to bring you to a state of being FULLY present in every moment of your life. Which is a far stronger and more intense version of life, than merely experiencing life through the limited filter of the mind. More alive and intense than experiencing life through the images of "thought-ifcation". (Sorry, had to create a word). It's truly a flowering of life.. and a method of waking up. Sadly, I think most of the Western versions of Buddhism, have completely missed the point of it.

Originally posted by Visitor2012
reply to post by Manula

 

Buddhism has turned into a fruitless religion and dogma. But don't blame Buddhism...blame the teachers of it. Buddhism's purpose is to bring you to a state of being FULLY present in every moment of your life. Which is a far stronger and more intense version of life, than merely experiencing life through the limited filter of the mind. More alive and intense than experiencing life through the images of "thought-ifcation". (Sorry, had to create a word). It's truly a flowering of life.. and a method of waking up. Sadly, I think most of the Western versions of Buddhism, have completely missed the point of it.

It would seem that the teachings from the Master's went no further than 20 feet. The rest is false interpretation and manipulative hog-wash.

Buddhism is a body of great wisdom and knowledge but its not perfect and i still think for myself so there are some things i dont like. One of it is the supression of the true will of the person

Originally posted by Manula
That dream of an eternal joy on earth is even selfish, why not share some of the pain and suffering with other mortals?

Eternal light is not here....

You people come to earth and want to live here like you live in the spirit world.

This is world of pain sorrow, pleasure and joy

It has got it all, isn't it wonderful?

Love it like it is and you will feel much better.

Infants cant stand pain and suffering, why don't you grow up?

edit on 29-5-2013 by Manula because: (no reason given)

You don't seem to get Buddhism. We're all with you on the whole "accept things as they are, accept the 'good' and the 'bad' with equanimity, etc" thing. That's great. But then you throw in "keep suffering" and that's where the disagreement is.

So, for the last time: WHY KEEP SUFFERING IF WE CAN BE FREE OF IT FOREVER?

Certainly if you truly accepted everything with equanimity, you would not have suffering. But you still have craving and you still have clinging.

reply to post by Damsel

The idea is that once you don't want anything and are perfectly at peace in the present moment, why would you ever turn away from that?

I just think it's dishonest. It's like we're trying to stamp out a part of ourselves for this "peace in the present moment". It achieves nothing but self-contempt. Anytime we try to achieve certain altered states of being we are still "craving and clinging" to reach those goals.

I don't see anything wrong with desire. In fact it's a part of being human and I find it quite beautiful. But we shouldn't deceive ourselves into thinking it is desire that causes evil and suffering, because, as we've talked about, desire can also lead to "the good" things such as "freedom of desire" and other such noble goals. Only reason can teach us what we should and shouldn't desire.

Why should we change ourselves if there's nothing that needs changing? That's detachment. (of course, all of this is opinion.)

I am certainly not enlightened or free from desire myself, and am merely repeating the ideas of others, but I find the ideas quite flawless and worth pursuing and supporting.

Is that honesty I see? You are a rarity around here. Nice to cross your path.

Originally posted by Baddogma
reply to post by arpgme

 

So the height of existence we can expect in this life is to lose all want? Isn't that, technically, death?

In thought losing, but in reality re-connecting to the WHOLE & remembering (what are the phases of Life and Death within existence but experiences in one or more planes of EXISTENCE that YOUs are part of) the mortal & immortal yous or Higher Self-Selves)

Originally posted by Baddogma
I see the meaning, but carried through it leads to the above thought. Isn't will, or desire, our prime motivator for keeping our biomass chugging? Without it we would just literally curl up and die... and I'm not saying that's definitely a bad thing... but am I incorrect?

replace desires (want based) with ambitions (survival based) perhaps this helps...

NAMASTE*******

Originally posted by Manula
That dream of an eternal joy on earth is even selfish, why not share some of the pain and suffering with other mortals?

Eternal light is not here....

You people come to earth and want to live here like you live in the spirit world.

This is world of pain sorrow, pleasure and joy

It has got it all, isn't it wonderful?

Love it like it is and you will feel much better.

Infants cant stand pain and suffering, why don't you grow up?

edit on 29-5-2013 by Manula because: (no reason given)

That's dreadful advice.

Originally posted by Manula
That dream of an eternal joy on earth is even selfish, why not share some of the pain and suffering with other mortals?

What's selfish about 'eternal joy on earth'?

Eternal light is not here....

Yes, it is. Eternal light is everywhere and nowhere. It is that which the universe is composed of. If it's not here now, where and when else could it be?

You people come to earth and want to live here like you live in the spirit world.

What makes this world any less of a 'spirit world'? There is no 'you people', there is only you. Only one consciousness exists, and you have it. You are God, experiencing God as God. If you choose to suffer, so be it. But it would be wise if you knocked it off.

This is world of pain sorrow, pleasure and joy

And I choose not to feel any more pain or sorrow. I've already gone through millions and millions of lives of suffering. This is my last.

It has got it all, isn't it wonderful?

Yes, it really is.

Love it like it is and you will feel much better.

If you love the suffering, you're not suffering (at least not emotionally). Get it?

Infants cant stand pain and suffering, why don't you grow up?

Nobody can stand suffering. If they could, they wouldn't be suffering. Get it??

Originally posted by mideast
Buddhism is a religion ?

Who is the messenger ?

Buddhism is what western govts want people to be.

And that is one reason that it is not right.

Western governments certainly don't want people to feel free from desire.
Desire is the west's forte...you need stuff, you want stuff, more stuff, upgraded stuff, your stuff is not the right color or model, get more stuff..you need it, you want it, you desire it.

Ya..bit of a opposite message. Your speculation is false.

Originally posted by Damsel

Originally posted by Manula
That dream of an eternal joy on earth is even selfish, why not share some of the pain and suffering with other mortals?

Eternal light is not here....

You people come to earth and want to live here like you live in the spirit world.

This is world of pain sorrow, pleasure and joy

It has got it all, isn't it wonderful?

Love it like it is and you will feel much better.

Infants cant stand pain and suffering, why don't you grow up?

edit on 29-5-2013 by Manula because: (no reason given)

You don't seem to get Buddhism. We're all with you on the whole "accept things as they are, accept the 'good' and the 'bad' with equanimity, etc" thing. That's great. But then you throw in "keep suffering" and that's where the disagreement is.

So, for the last time: WHY KEEP SUFFERING IF WE CAN BE FREE OF IT FOREVER?

Certainly if you truly accepted everything with equanimity, you would not have suffering. But you still have craving and you still have clinging.

edit on 5/29/2013 by Damsel because: (no reason given)

Free from suffering forever?

Why would i want it? I don't want to much of it but i don't mind to feel it once in a while.

I never suffered forever and i never will. It comes and goes.

I try to find reasons to like events of life. Thats my way. I like to see the positive side of things but i don't want to be free from negative forever like it is some kind of disease.

Like i said, i find a lot of positivism in pain and suffering, it taught me a lot, made me a better person, more wise, more wisdom, more compassionate, more sensible...

I honestly don't want to eradicate it, i can see the good in it. Obviously i don't advocate to much of it, just the right amount.

You cant see any good in it, but i can, maybe thats the difference between us...

Originally posted by Manula
You people are attached to a certain way of living, calm, peaceful, no up and downs, be free, do what you want, desire one day, let go the day after, you can live the white if you can live the black.... you people are putting a leash on yourselves...

Oh and about freedom, freedom is... being able to choose what is important at any given moment, its being able to do what you want and be brave enough to live with the consequences. Just a definition, there are plenty...

We're not talking about petty freedoms. When a seeker refers to Freedom, he is desiring to live and experience the boundless nature of himself. This is a freedom of GODLY proportions, not this nonsense about "freedom to do what you want and when you want" that's just childish.

Originally posted by HarryTZ

Originally posted by Manula
That dream of an eternal joy on earth is even selfish, why not share some of the pain and suffering with other mortals?

What's selfish about 'eternal joy on earth'?

Eternal light is not here....

Yes, it is. Eternal light is everywhere and nowhere. It is that which the universe is composed of. If it's not here now, where and when else could it be?

You people come to earth and want to live here like you live in the spirit world.

What makes this world any less of a 'spirit world'? There is no 'you people', there is only you. Only one consciousness exists, and you have it. You are God, experiencing God as God. If you choose to suffer, so be it. But it would be wise if you knocked it off.

This is world of pain sorrow, pleasure and joy

And I choose not to feel any more pain or sorrow. I've already gone through millions and millions of lives of suffering. This is my last.

It has got it all, isn't it wonderful?

Yes, it really is.

Love it like it is and you will feel much better.

If you love the suffering, you're not suffering (at least not emotionally). Get it?

Infants cant stand pain and suffering, why don't you grow up?

Nobody can stand suffering. If they could, they wouldn't be suffering. Get it??

Your last life here? Maybe when you learn to like it, with all its black and white emotions and situations, maybe you are ready to leave for good.

You must be realy tired of this world, it shows you still have work to do here.

what if the suffering is will related to the disconnect or LACK. and so some try to remind other CREATOR Creation Family to remember... and nothing more no force no this religion if viewed that way being better then the other just remind as to assist or provide a Service To Others S.T.O who may of forgotten the WHOLE/SOURCE THEMSELF(S)