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Why Buddha says true freedom is freedom of desire...

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posted on May, 29 2013 @ 11:00 AM
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Originally posted by mideast
Buddhism is a religion ?

Who is the messenger ?

Buddhism is what western govts want people to be.

And that is one reason that it is not right.


Buddhism or Spirituality are the right choice in this day and age.... most other Religions or Ideologies are False and outdated!




posted on May, 29 2013 @ 11:19 AM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 



Life is alive. The one who believes in death is the one fighting.


You make it look like you're answering my post, but you're not really answering. You didn't address any of my argument regarding the essential nature of ego and its relationship with desire. Try again.
edit on 29-5-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 11:27 AM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


Right on OP!

I had to go through a serious depression in my late twenties to early thirties to figure that out.

"Freedom is having nothing left to lose."
Janis Joplin



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Itisnowagain
 



Life is alive. The one who believes in death is the one fighting.


You make it look like you're answering my post, but you're not really answering. You didn't address any of my argument regarding the essential nature of ego and its relationship with desire. Try again.
edit on 29-5-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Oh - I did but I will elaborate.
The one fighting to stay alive is ego - there is no need for it because ego is life thinking it can die - so it fights.
There is no separate identity called ego - there is fear/contraction.
There is just one energy - when it contracts it is fear - when it is relaxed it is love.

Try to comprehend.
edit on 29-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 11:41 AM
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Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by arpgme
 

Isn't freedom from desire also a desire? What if I desire health? What if I desire creativity? We should perhaps not get rid of desire, but desire the right things—that which is healthy. No?


No, freedom from desire is not a desire. It is a state of being. I think you're missing the point.

It takes a healthy body and mind to be free from desire. And a healthy body and mind will attract the right things, including creativity. Call it "being in the flow".



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 11:43 AM
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desire!
Buddhist monks desire to be monks.
to desire to end desire is desire.
desire to be enlightened.
to live is to have desire.
to die is to have desire.



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 11:46 AM
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reply to post by soulwaxer
 



No, freedom from desire is not a desire. It is a state of being. I think you're missing the point.

It takes a healthy body and mind to be free from desire. And a healthy body and mind will attract the right things, including creativity. Call it "being in the flow".


Freedom from desire...does that include the desire to live? The desire to be happy? The desire to exist? The absence of desire is the absence of movement. You cease to live. Does a comatose man live? Is a comatose man happy? Is he fulfilling some kind of agenda by sucking air through a plastic tube and being sustained purely through the efforts of those who are not comatose, those who are alive to desire his continued existence?

You make no sense. Either you are alive and desiring, or you are dead and free from desire. DESIRE IS NOT A BAD THING. Just like anything else, its value is determined by how it is used.
edit on 29-5-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 11:55 AM
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reply to post by Damsel
 


The Buddha did arrive at his philosophy through experience though.

Western Buddhism likes to focus a lot on his meditation beneath a bodhi tree, but they seem to forget, ignore, or simply aren't aware that the Buddha's philosophy was in response to experiences he had as a young prince.

Specifically, it was in response to seeing a sick man, an old man, and a dead man (if I recall correctly --- it's been quite some time since I explored Buddhism).

Not only that, but, after the Buddha observed and experienced age, decay, and death he tried to find the answer to life's suffering through a variety of philosophies, like Asceticism. It was only after the Buddha had concluded that those other approaches to life were not complete that he meditated beneath the tree and became enlightened.

So, while the Buddha simplified his experiences into the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eight-Fold Path, and the Dharma for escape from the wheel of Samsara and reincarnation, he did not arrive at that without experiencing the opposite of each thing he taught his followers to release as a discrimination, attachment, or clinging.

None-the-less, my position is still the same. Experiencing everything life has to offer---good and bad---and then choosing to let ALL of that go is the best way to really, fully, truly complete your detachment from the chain of dependent origination.

As for not being able to experience all life has to offer in one go... why do you think the Buddha still included the possibility of reincarnation among his Dharma?

Why do you think there are different "levels" when it comes to being a Bodhisattva? Some Bodhisattva actually reject sublimation with the Universe, in favor of reincarnating again, and again, and again until every atman---soul---on Earth has been freed from clinging, craving, and desire.

You're not able to experience all of life in one go?

That's alright, you've got more chances. And, as with most spiritual schools of thought, your soul will know when you've experienced and released everything.

Then you'll be ready.

~ Wandering Scribe



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 12:00 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by soulwaxer
 



No, freedom from desire is not a desire. It is a state of being. I think you're missing the point.

It takes a healthy body and mind to be free from desire. And a healthy body and mind will attract the right things, including creativity. Call it "being in the flow".


Freedom from desire...does that include the desire to live? The desire to be happy? The desire to exist?

Do you have to desire to exist? Really?
Existence is - life is. There may be a desire to not die or not exist but existing is happening.
There may be a thought that says 'I can cease to exist' but that thought is existence.
edit on 29-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
Then it would seem freedom from desire is also freedom from joy and life. It seems like the desire for an ending of suffering is a desire for an end of the human experience and life, which includes, and not is absent of, suffering. One who doesn't desire health, health for his friends, to avoid bodily pain, love for others, to be creative, to be happy, is on the fast-road for more suffering.

Therefor, craving and clinging are not the causes of suffering. They are the result of suffering.

I don't see how one who doesn't desire those things is on a fast-road for more suffering. If you don't desire anything, you can't be disappointed; you can't be anything except content and at peace. What would cause suffering?



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 12:12 PM
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reply to post by Wandering Scribe
 

Hey, great reply on the Buddha. You actually called me out big time. I tend to focus on Buddha's Enlightenment primarily more so than what led up to that. In my own case, I also had to experience a large portion of what life here in this world has to offer, before I was done with it all and began to seek the reason why we exist and for what reason, and ho to detach from all of this, after personally experiencing various sufferings, health issues, and seeing others suffer as well.

it is good to experience the opposites, however one can get addicted to grasping the 10,000 things



You're not able to experience all of life in one go? That's alright, you've got more chances. And, as with most spiritual schools of thought, your soul will know when you've experienced and released everything. Then you'll be ready.

If you are wise, you can experience a fragment of it, and conclude from the fragment, that the rest is also similar and empty, causing insatiability.



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 12:15 PM
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reply to post by Wandering Scribe
 

But the followers of the Buddha became Arahants without having to go through the same experiences that the Buddha did. Some people who came into contact with the Buddha became Sotapanna by merely listening to his teaching directly. One does not need all of these experiences for enlightenment. As you point out with the topic of rebirth, by being alive today it means we've already experienced many other lives previously, so why do we need to continue to have experiences in this one in order to become enlightened? I say we don't. We don't need to live a full life in this life to become enlightened.



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 12:27 PM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 



Do you have to desire to exist? Really?
Existence is - life is. There may be a desire to not die or not exist but existing is happening.
There may be a thought that says 'I can cease to exist' but that thought is existence.


Existence doesn't just happen. You have to struggle to maintain it or you'll die. We can choose to self-destruct, or choose to continue living and creating. But our choices are a result of our desires. Without ego, what choice is there to make? Nothing matters. Exist until your body perishes from lack of nutrients because you had no desire to feed yourself, or is mauled and torn apart by wild beasts because you had no desire to defend yourself. Maybe you'll freeze to death, because you have no desire to shelter or clothe yourself. Or maybe you'll die of a broken heart because you have no desires, and therefore care about nothing.


There may be a thought that says 'I can cease to exist' but that thought is existence.


Until you decide to end it. Just as with a car that someone blows up or totals, that car is no longer meaningful. It is a broken heap of metal and plastic and vinyl and whatever else. And should you choose to force your own vacancy, your body becomes a pile of meat and bone. Nothing more. The purpose of ego is to create autonomous direction. Autonomous direction is a survival mechanism. The core of our autonomy is the ego.

And the key to autonomy is desire. If you no longer care to make your own decisions or make your own meaning in life, then I suppose forfeiting your ego and your desires is the way to go. But that, to me, is a pitiful existence that barely counts as living at all. And I think that opinion would be vindicated with your eventual failure to continue existing as a living, breathing, thinking person. You would waste away until you finally died.



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 12:44 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by soulwaxer
 



No, freedom from desire is not a desire. It is a state of being. I think you're missing the point.

It takes a healthy body and mind to be free from desire. And a healthy body and mind will attract the right things, including creativity. Call it "being in the flow".


Freedom from desire...does that include the desire to live? The desire to be happy? The desire to exist? The absence of desire is the absence of movement. You cease to live. Does a comatose man live? Is a comatose man happy? Is he fulfilling some kind of agenda by sucking air through a plastic tube and being sustained purely through the efforts of those who are not comatose, those who are alive to desire his continued existence?

You make no sense. Either you are alive and desiring, or you are dead and free from desire. DESIRE IS NOT A BAD THING. Just like anything else, its value is determined by how it is used.
edit on 29-5-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)


I can honestly say that I am happy and I am free from the desire to live, and even exist.

It's all about perspective. If you perceive the 3D reality as the only thing there is, you will always end up disappointed and frustrated. But when you are able to see beyond that, you won't have a care 'in the world'.

This is all about FEAR! When you have faced the worst of your fears, you will be free from desire.



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 12:48 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


This is existence and until you actually see it end, it is just an idea that it will.
I have wanted to not have life but it did not stop it. The desire for the end or the desire for it to never end is a pointless exercise.
What this is never began and will never end.



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 12:53 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 
Hi,

Just on a personal note;

Shopping on the net is pretty fun! Sites let me maintain a wish list...

Then I get sad because I want something on my wish list.

I've since learned it's easier to scrap any wish lists; and since then, my ability to obtain necessities has increased.



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 12:53 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Until you decide to end it. Just as with a car that someone blows up or totals, that car is no longer meaningful. It is a broken heap of metal and plastic and vinyl and whatever else. And should you choose to force your own vacancy, your body becomes a pile of meat and bone. Nothing more. The purpose of ego is to create autonomous direction. Autonomous direction is a survival mechanism. The core of our autonomy is the ego.


When someone totals their beloved car, the car will continue to exist in their mind. This is the point that you are missing. When one of your family members dies, they live on in your memory. You may choose not to find that meaningful, but I personally find it more meaningful than the things you shared in this life. Think about what your memory really is, and what it is worth to you. Is it not meaningful?



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 12:55 PM
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Originally posted by Damsel
reply to post by Wandering Scribe
 

But the followers of the Buddha became Arahants without having to go through the same experiences that the Buddha did. Some people who came into contact with the Buddha became Sotapanna by merely listening to his teaching directly. One does not need all of these experiences for enlightenment. As you point out with the topic of rebirth, by being alive today it means we've already experienced many other lives previously, so why do we need to continue to have experiences in this one in order to become enlightened? I say we don't. We don't need to live a full life in this life to become enlightened.

I agree completely!!!!

I think scribe is just saying that Buddha having experienced the suffering and death of others, and seen into the nature of being human, understood existence and what we will all eventually go through. Old age and death.

So it was a motivation to seek the Truth.

I agree we don't need all those experiences for Enlightenment. If you are wise, you will realize that all experiences are empty and insatiability stems from constant desire for more.

Also funny you mention sotapanna. I was at a philosophy meeting man years back, and was sitting next to a Buddhist, who leaned over to whisper something into my ear. His close proximity to mine, sparked the lighting up of the center of my awareness, like one candle lighting the other, and for the next few weeks/months there after, I was privy to realizing how all the internals of the ego and awareness operate and entering off and on into the Source.

All that just from sitting next to someone who themselves were deep into it all. Go figure!!!! And I've since met others who have experienced the same realizations/awakenings from close proximity to those who had it.



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 01:10 PM
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So many times have I thought to myself how much more peaceful I could be if I could stop wanting things.

I realized months ago that my desire is actually powerful curiosity. Being curious is all fine and well, but the actual motivation to experience what I want to produces a great deal of inner turmoil. In me, anyway.



posted on May, 29 2013 @ 01:37 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 



Without desire you are free of control.


Very true.

Equally true.

Without desire, there is no love. (romantic love)
Without desire, there is no reward.
Without desire, there is no motivation.
Without desire, there is no hope.

Extremism does not work in the real world. Even though no Christian, I'm often reminded of one of my favorite parts of Oh God, Book II, when the little girl asks God, why he made bad things happen. His answer was as simple as it was beautiful. (not exact quotes)

"I never learned to make anything with just one side."
"What do you mean" the girl replied.
"Well, *holds up a coin*, can't have a front without a back, light without dark, happy without sad, etc."

So true....




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