Intelligent first cause: WHY IT IS IMPOSSIBLE

Originally posted by jiggerj

Yeah, An intelligence that has always existed, outside of space and time.

reply to post by dusty1

 

How does anything operate where one minute does not move into the next minute? How can there be a progression of thought without time? It takes 2 seconds to think "I will create the universe." Without time, that thought could not have occurred.

Time is an illusion - there is only movement happening presently.
Look at your watch now and keep looking at it - notice that you are always in the present and the watch hands are moving.
Thought is what leads you to believe in time. Thought is really just a word appearing presently that says 'tomorrow' then you think there is something outside of the present - but everything concept arises presently.

Originally posted by alfa1

Originally posted by jiggerj
and the scientific belief that the Big Bang started from nothing.

Straw man.
The energy / matter equivalence isnt allowed for here. Your "nothing" makes no reference to the starting energy.

If I say that a wash cloth is not dry, would it be a fallacy to accept that the cloth is in some state of wetness? In this analogy I am claiming that if a state of absolute nothing could not exist, then by default something MUST exist even if we don't know what that something is.

reply to post by jiggerj


Science is telling us that atoms are 99.9999% empty space.
When you move your hand you do not push empty space out of the way - the hand is empty space. Empty space appears as an image. Like a rainbow appears on/as empty space.
There is nothing here now - but it appears as this.
Emptiness is forming.

reply to post by TheMagus

that the BIG BANG was preceded by the HUGE FART

You have no idea how many hours I've put in to that thought. Why would the process of a Big Bang be any different than the process of creating a fart?

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by TheMagus

 

that the BIG BANG was preceded by the HUGE FART

You have no idea how many hours I've put in to that thought. Why would the process of a Big Bang be any different than the process of creating a fart?

There is only God - and God is smelling his own fart.

Originally posted by HarryTZ
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

It is not a paradox. Everything is nothing.

I invite you to give examples of how something (anything) can be reduced to nothing.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by HarryTZ
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

It is not a paradox. Everything is nothing.

I invite you to give examples of how something (anything) can be reduced to nothing.

Some thing is not true. Things are not true. There is only what is happening presently. Can the happening be called a 'thing'?
The present happening is all there is - is it a 'thing'. This moment is passing/changing - but what knows it is passing/changing?

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Time is an illusion - there is only movement happening presently.
Look at your watch now and keep looking at it - notice that you are always in the present and the watch hands are moving.
Thought is what leads you to believe in time. Thought is really just a word appearing presently that says 'tomorrow' then you think there is something outside of the present - but everything concept arises presently.

That movement and that thought is energy being processed from start to finish. So whether we call it 'time' or anything else, the energy had to be there first in order for that movement and thought.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Time is an illusion - there is only movement happening presently.
Look at your watch now and keep looking at it - notice that you are always in the present and the watch hands are moving.
Thought is what leads you to believe in time. Thought is really just a word appearing presently that says 'tomorrow' then you think there is something outside of the present - but everything concept arises presently.

That movement and that thought is energy being processed from start to finish. So whether we call it 'time' or anything else, the energy had to be there first in order for that movement and thought.

Energy is moving presently.
Energy never goes anywhere.
Energy is not a thing.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Science is telling us that atoms are 99.9999% empty space.
When you move your hand you do not push empty space out of the way - the hand is empty space. Empty space appears as an image. Like a rainbow appears on/as empty space.
There is nothing here now - but it appears as this.
Emptiness is forming.

edit on 29-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

I wish science would take the time to explain empty space. Is it like an empty closet, yet an empty closet still has air or something in it.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Science is telling us that atoms are 99.9999% empty space.
When you move your hand you do not push empty space out of the way - the hand is empty space. Empty space appears as an image. Like a rainbow appears on/as empty space.
There is nothing here now - but it appears as this.
Emptiness is forming.

edit on 29-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

I wish science would take the time to explain empty space. Is it like an empty closet, yet an empty closet still has air or something in it.

Scientists have taken everything (particles etc.) out and made a vacuum and then watched it very closely with strong magnifying cameras and watched as virtual particles appear out of - nothing. But a vacuum is pure energy but it cannot help but start appearing.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by HarryTZ
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

It is not a paradox. Everything is nothing.

I invite you to give examples of how something (anything) can be reduced to nothing.

Some thing is not true. Things are not true. There is only what is happening presently. Can the happening be called a 'thing'?
The present happening is all there is - is it a 'thing'. This moment is passing/changing - but what knows it is passing/changing?

edit on 29-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

'Some thing' as you put it, and the action of 'happening' takes energy. Therefore it takes energy to create and maintain all things and actions.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Energy is not a thing.

Explain how energy is nothing.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Scientists have taken everything (particles etc.) out and made a vacuum and then watched it very closely with strong magnifying cameras and watched as virtual particles appear out of - nothing.

No, no, no. lol They've watched particles appear from somewhere.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by HarryTZ
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

It is not a paradox. Everything is nothing.

I invite you to give examples of how something (anything) can be reduced to nothing.

Some thing is not true. Things are not true. There is only what is happening presently. Can the happening be called a 'thing'?
The present happening is all there is - is it a 'thing'. This moment is passing/changing - but what knows it is passing/changing?

edit on 29-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

'Some thing' as you put it, and the action of 'happening' takes energy. Therefore it takes energy to create and maintain all things and actions.

There is just the one energy - which is not a thing.
That one energy is all there is - it is appearing presently as an image (one image) - this image. Then there is an idea arising as the one energy that says there is something other than this - there isn't -but this gives rise to more than one. This is what makes 'things' - the idea that says there is more - there isn't, this is it - this is all there will ever be.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Scientists have taken everything (particles etc.) out and made a vacuum and then watched it very closely with strong magnifying cameras and watched as virtual particles appear out of - nothing.

No, no, no. lol They've watched particles appear from somewhere.

Where? What somewhere else?
No - the vacuum is pure energy, like the ocean is the source of the waves.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Energy is not a thing.

Explain how energy is nothing.

It is not a thing - not a particular - it is the whole.
Name it.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Scientists have taken everything (particles etc.) out and made a vacuum and then watched it very closely with strong magnifying cameras and watched as virtual particles appear out of - nothing.

No, no, no. lol They've watched particles appear from somewhere.

You saw the programme with Brian Cox rubbing the diamond - the atoms are all just moving about in the one huge energy system - they have no choice they all move together.

This is the first chapter of the Tao Te Ching translated by S. Michelll.
See the bit where it says 'the unnameable is the eternally real'. Naming (labelling/wording) is the origin of 'things' (the particular) - words arising presently give the impression that there is some 'thing' other that the present image that is appearing - this image is whole - there s nothing outside of it. But the mind (wording) is deceptive - it makes 'things' up - out of no thingness.

The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Scientists have taken everything (particles etc.) out and made a vacuum and then watched it very closely with strong magnifying cameras and watched as virtual particles appear out of - nothing.

No, no, no. lol They've watched particles appear from somewhere.

Where? What somewhere else?

Probably from just outside of the vacuum they created, I don't know. We aren't talking magic here. Those particles had to come from somewhere.