Simple question re: homosexuality

Originally posted by deadeyedick
I very much agree with seabag and i disagree with the op somewhat because i have found the spiritual reason for all the problems with it. GOD created homosexuality as a form of punishment from past life going against him. I have been having visions of my pre life and i seen that on a spiritual level all soul mates were male and female but we are at the culmination of our human existence before GOD'S return and most vessels were already taken. So many soul mates went into same sex vessels. That does not take away from the fact that is is a form of punishment that many have to suffer and no pride should be taken in that but what do i know.

Another one in the column of religious fear.

This is going just about as I expected. Fundies are ruled by religious fear. Not logic.

Originally posted by Iamschist
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

The scary part is that homosexuality will become accepted as 'normal' by society. The erosion of traditional values is threatening for many. Homosexuality is condemned in the Bible, to accept gay marriage, is to accept the 'sin' and bring down the wrath of God. I am guessing that is another scary part.

How does telling a minority group to start living up to those traditional values erode them?

And accepting the 'sin' of homosexuality will bring down the wrath of God, but a sin like say, I don't know, straight men visiting prostitutes won't? Or how about straight people committing adultery? Sexual immorality is something that the 90% of the people who are straight are every bit as good as the 10% who are gay at partaking in you know.....

The bible is a thinly veiled way to back up people's prejudices and make them 'okay' because 'God said so, so there' At least the Atheist folk who don't like the issue are honest enough to say they don't like it, because well now, they just don't like it.

Originally posted by OpenEars123

Originally posted by markosity1973

Originally posted by OpenEars123
I would say that a lot of people who are anti gay marriage or anti gay, are in fact themselves gay. Whether they know it or not is a different subject.

Good question, and good luck when the god squad arrive.

That's certainly an interesting perspective. What sources can you provide to back this claim up though?

It's just something I've noticed through life in general. I know a lot of gay people, and a good handful of them are over 60.
It's just my opinion of course.

Opinions are of course always welcome, but I also know a lot of gay folk who would dearly love to marry. I know couples who have gone ahead and got engaged in the hopes that one day they will be able to marry.

Originally posted by markosity1973

Originally posted by OpenEars123

Originally posted by markosity1973

Originally posted by OpenEars123
I would say that a lot of people who are anti gay marriage or anti gay, are in fact themselves gay. Whether they know it or not is a different subject.

Good question, and good luck when the god squad arrive.

That's certainly an interesting perspective. What sources can you provide to back this claim up though?

It's just something I've noticed through life in general. I know a lot of gay people, and a good handful of them are over 60.
It's just my opinion of course.

Opinions are of course always welcome, but I also know a lot of gay folk who would dearly love to marry. I know couples who have gone ahead and got engaged in the hopes that one day they will be able to marry.

Yes i do too. Many many gay people would rather be straight and would love to marry and have children, this is very common.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by deadeyedick
I very much agree with seabag and i disagree with the op somewhat because i have found the spiritual reason for all the problems with it. GOD created homosexuality as a form of punishment from past life going against him. I have been having visions of my pre life and i seen that on a spiritual level all soul mates were male and female but we are at the culmination of our human existence before GOD'S return and most vessels were already taken. So many soul mates went into same sex vessels. That does not take away from the fact that is is a form of punishment that many have to suffer and no pride should be taken in that but what do i know.

Another one in the column of religious fear.

This is going just about as I expected. Fundies are ruled by religious fear. Not logic.

I basically just stated that many gay couples are soul mates and you call me a fundie.
Do you deny the existence of your spirit or the punishment part to much for you?

reply to post by captaintyinknots

Another one in the column of religious fear.

This is going just about as I expected. Fundies are ruled by religious fear. Not logic.

Fundies??

So you have a name for the VAST MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY who disagrees with you??

Interesting….

Why didn't you title your thread " I want to know why you disagree with me on gay marriage so I can call you names and dismiss your response because I disagree"??

I think it will have a negative impact on our society, esp. on the minds of children. our society is already pretty messed up. I can't see how this won't worsen things.

We just need to give them something where they have the same tax deductions and stuff, but call it something else.

reply to post by seabag


While I agree his term is dumb, and he's being rude....

So you have a name for the VAST MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY who disagrees with you??

That's just not true. The vast majority are not religious fundamentalists. The majority are not religious fundamentalists. Most Christians are CINO.

Originally posted by OpenEars123

Originally posted by markosity1973

Originally posted by OpenEars123

Originally posted by markosity1973

Originally posted by OpenEars123
I would say that a lot of people who are anti gay marriage or anti gay, are in fact themselves gay. Whether they know it or not is a different subject.

Good question, and good luck when the god squad arrive.

That's certainly an interesting perspective. What sources can you provide to back this claim up though?

It's just something I've noticed through life in general. I know a lot of gay people, and a good handful of them are over 60.
It's just my opinion of course.

Opinions are of course always welcome, but I also know a lot of gay folk who would dearly love to marry. I know couples who have gone ahead and got engaged in the hopes that one day they will be able to marry.

Yes i do too. Many many gay people would rather be straight and would love to marry and have children, this is very common.

edit on 27/5/13 by OpenEars123 because: (no reason given)

Which leads back being yet more anecdotal evidence that sexuality is not a choice. If they have such strong wishes and sexual attraction able to be chosen, they would simply be able to choose to find a mate of the opposite gender, presumably marry them and start a family.

But they don't because they can't find the opposite sex attractive. In exactly the same manner most heterosexual people can't find someone of the same sex attractive.

Originally posted by markosity1973

Which leads back being yet more anecdotal evidence that sexuality is not a choice. If they have such strong wishes, they would simply be able to choose to find a mate of the opposite gender, presumably marry them and start a family.

But they don't because they can't find the opposite sex attractive. In exactly the same manner most heterosexual people can't find someone of the same sex attractive.

I'll clear this up because it relates to my first post.

There is no evidence at all whether people are born gay, or environmental factors turn them gay. In almost every case of nature vs. nurture it's usually a mixture of both. That's why I think it's likely that legalizing gay marriage will confuse the minds of children. But if we can call it something different, any potential impact will be severely dampened.

Originally posted by Ghost375
I think it will have a negative impact on our society, esp. on the minds of children. our society is already pretty messed up. I can't see how this won't worsen things.

We just need to give them something where they have the same tax deductions and stuff, but call it something else.

Like civil union maybe, that's where NZ started. It caused bit of a furore at first, but then people got over it and realised that apart from at the registry office and unless you were invited to a ceremony, you had no idea that it was happening at all. i.e. Most gay couples remained fairly invisible in every day life.

In the end, NZ has just changed the law and made it marriage, the same as a straight couple would have because the impact was so unnoticeable.

Don't forget, these families you speak of will already right here and now have contact with gay people through gay Uncles and Aunts etc.

For once, I'd tend to agree with Ghost here. If it doesn't matter what it's called as Gays insist Christians shouldn't care as much as they do, then give a little on both sides and split the difference.

Most people I know and have talked to have no problem with civil unions and let it be for Heterosexuals who don't desire the religious side of the Marriage vows and ceremony as well. Even a Justice of the Peace has some religious ceremony to the wording, if nothing else at all and there should be a 100% secular option. Achieving that does not mean forcing people of Faith to change traditions which predate the founding of our nation by scores of years.

That leaves Marriage to the Church as it has traditionally been and should really remain, while giving a legal device TOTALLY removed from the Church..(any Church)...for those who desire it.

Let each have their own, as long as legal protections read equal. That can be handled inside a few pages, even in Legalese, IMO.

Originally posted by deadeyedick

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by deadeyedick
I very much agree with seabag and i disagree with the op somewhat because i have found the spiritual reason for all the problems with it. GOD created homosexuality as a form of punishment from past life going against him. I have been having visions of my pre life and i seen that on a spiritual level all soul mates were male and female but we are at the culmination of our human existence before GOD'S return and most vessels were already taken. So many soul mates went into same sex vessels. That does not take away from the fact that is is a form of punishment that many have to suffer and no pride should be taken in that but what do i know.

Another one in the column of religious fear.

This is going just about as I expected. Fundies are ruled by religious fear. Not logic.

I basically just stated that many gay couples are soul mates and you call me a fundie.

Do you deny the existence of your spirit or the punishment part to much for you?

I didnt call you a fundy. I said fundies are controlled through religious fear. If you took that personally, perhaps you ought to ask why.

I am an atheist. So the idea that anyone else's religion should be the basis for the laws I have to live by is downright asinine.

Really, all prejudices (and yes, saying being gay is a punishment is a prejudice) are too much for me.

reply to post by deadeyedick


You shouldn't judge others or take aways other's rights based on delusions.

Originally posted by markosity1973

Originally posted by OpenEars123

Originally posted by markosity1973

Originally posted by OpenEars123

Originally posted by markosity1973

Originally posted by OpenEars123
I would say that a lot of people who are anti gay marriage or anti gay, are in fact themselves gay. Whether they know it or not is a different subject.

Good question, and good luck when the god squad arrive.

That's certainly an interesting perspective. What sources can you provide to back this claim up though?

It's just something I've noticed through life in general. I know a lot of gay people, and a good handful of them are over 60.
It's just my opinion of course.

Opinions are of course always welcome, but I also know a lot of gay folk who would dearly love to marry. I know couples who have gone ahead and got engaged in the hopes that one day they will be able to marry.

Yes i do too. Many many gay people would rather be straight and would love to marry and have children, this is very common.

edit on 27/5/13 by OpenEars123 because: (no reason given)

Which leads back being yet more anecdotal evidence that sexuality is not a choice. If they have such strong wishes, they would simply be able to choose to find a mate of the opposite gender, presumably marry them and start a family.

But they don't because they can't find the opposite sex attractive. In exactly the same manner most heterosexual people can't find someone of the same sex attractive.

I couldn't agree more, different horses for different courses.

reply to post by markosity1973

How does telling a minority group to start living up to those traditional values erode them? And accepting the 'sin' of homosexuality will bring down the wrath of God, but a sin like say, I don't know, straight men visiting prostitutes won't? Or how about straight people committing adultery? Sexual immorality is something that the 90% of the people who are straight are every bit as good as the 10% who are gay at partaking in you know..... The bible is a thinly veiled way to back up people's prejudices and make them 'okay' because 'God said so, so there' At least the Atheist folk who don't like the issue are honest enough to say they don't like it, because well now, they just don't like it.

You're not gonna get an argument from me. I agree with you. Useless fear, after greed is the cause of most of societies ills, imho. No question religious fundamentalists are hypocrites and use the Bible as a convenient club, when it suits them.

Originally posted by Ghost375

That's just not true. The vast majority are not religious fundamentalists. The majority are not religious fundamentalists. Most Christians are CINO.

“Religious Fundamentalist” is a liberal buzz word.

Call gay unions something else and move on!! @250 MILLION Americans identify as Christians. That is a VAST MAJORITY!

Look, I know the tide has turned. I’ve even been persuaded to change my stance.



However, the OP asked a specific question. He asked:

What is so scary about gay marriage?

I answered:

Nothing is scary about it.

Marriage is a religious ceremony. Those who oppose gay marriage seek to preserve the sanctity of Holy Matrimony.

Call it something else and the resistance will fade!

reply to post by seabag

Fundies?

Is this a new term to you?

So you have a name for the VAST MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY who disagrees with you??

Please, back that statement up with numbers (and no, fundies is not my term, nor is it a new term)

Why didn't you title your thread " I want to know why you disagree with me on gay marriage so I can call you names and dismiss your response because I disagree"??

Because I asked a question. One that, thus far, has only been answered with religious fear.

I am not dismissing any response, but you're darn sure right Im going to call out a lie when I see one. To say marriage is solely religious is a lie.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
Even a Justice of the Peace has some religious ceremony to the wording,

Id argue with this. I am an ordained agnostic minister. I have not spoken a single religious word in any of the marriages I have performed. And they are still legal.

Originally posted by Ghost375

Originally posted by markosity1973

Which leads back being yet more anecdotal evidence that sexuality is not a choice. If they have such strong wishes, they would simply be able to choose to find a mate of the opposite gender, presumably marry them and start a family.

But they don't because they can't find the opposite sex attractive. In exactly the same manner most heterosexual people can't find someone of the same sex attractive.

I'll clear this up because it relates to my first post.

There is no evidence at all whether people are born gay, or environmental factors turn them gay. In almost every case of nature vs. nurture it's usually a mixture of both. That's why I think it's likely that legalizing gay marriage will confuse the minds of children. But if we can call it something different, any potential impact will be severely dampened.

Or perhaps it may simply lead to a society where the importance is placed upon love and loyalty, no matter who you end up with. Even if it were a nurture thing, I still don't think it's that cut and dried.

Early studies on gay parenting has shown there is no more likelihood of the children raised under their roof turning out gay. If one were to argue the case of nurture, gay parents are surely the first place one would look because the child is immersed completely in a gay environment.