The Colorado River and the High Plains Aquifer are drying up.

Originally posted by Moshpet
The water needs of El Paso, Texas, are in large part supported by the desalination plant we have here.
...El Paso is a desert community and the Rio Grande isn't flowing like it used to, if at all in many areas. Pull up Google Earth and look at how dry the Rio Grande was in 2012, and note it is much drier than that, currently.
...If you have the luxury of having your own well, fine and dandy. But to preach about what you will and will not drink, is foolishness. Not to mention likely a misnomer, as the same water that is in the city system is also in your cola's, beers, foods and the like. Did you go to the movies recently & have a soda? Where do you think that water came from? Where was your beer made, and what water supply did they use? Have you made a can of soup lately?
...If there is water in any product you eat, drink and so on, and it says water on the label, it's not going to say, Water( May include chlorine, fluoride, trace minerals and heavy metals.) It is just going to say, WATER.
...So for all of anyone posturing on not drinking the 'fluoridated water or chlorinated water', you can now pat them on the head and say, "that's nice dear" in a Church lady voice. Because evidently they are just fooling themselves, and have not bothered to do a single bit of research.
...M.

Thanks for the education. (Whew!)
I read reports of those who did said research, many years ago -- [ pats itself on the head ] --

To most of your questions - the answer (for me) is "No".
But - that's neither here, nor there...as I don't speak for everyone.
I am well familiar with the woes of West Texas water supplies. I am also well aware that EVERYONE who has land...with a "fresh water spring" gurgling out of the ground, is trying to get investors - so they can become "the next" Evian or other such "bottled water" ga-jillionaire. I am also "well aware" that even those that have "water wells" in 'this' region are "hurting" with contaminated water... (you can probably guess at the origin of said contamination/s).

I am gathering from what you are saying - (if indeed, your answer actually spoke to this question) - that the desalination plants simply remove the "saline" from the water (or - is it the other way around? - remove the water from the saline...)...and then, the water is treated as in most other public water supplies...?

Originally posted by Mamatus



Oh well. the world is changing and it is changing rapidly. I am glad to be almost 48 years old now as I won't enjoy the world we will all be living in come another 20 years.

20 years??

I predict in 10 years we will all be living under a corporate fascist state with water and food as the controlling mechanism. The infrastructure will be trashed and private prisons will be filled to overflowing, with malcontents on trumped up "domestic terrorist" charges.

Originally posted by Hopechest
...I believe Saudi Arabia gets almost 70% of their water from these plants.
...Hasn't been any issues.
...My father has a solar powered one on his sailboat and although it doesn't produce as much as a chemical one, the water is absolutely delicious...straight from the ocean.
...The costs are extremely high but so is our defense budget and our social programs. Cut those and we have more than enough money.

As to your father's solar powered desalinator -
Does it work, primarily by evaporation and condensation...?

When you say "hasn't been any issues"...I'm guessing that you're referring to Saudi Arabia's use of ocean water?
Do you know how long they have been using such technology?

reply to post by olaru12

I was trying to be optimistic.......... There is a show on SyFy called "Continuum". Basic premise is terrorists from a very dark and scary future use time travel to return to our time and try to change the world before it gets to where it was in the future. Accidentally they brought one of the "Protectors" from the future with them and she is trying to prevent the terrorists from succeeding in any of their plans. The Future in Continuum is the very future we all fear.

I find myself rooting for the terrorists.........

Supose they just pumped theSEA WATER to Arizona,NMexico,etc....
The SUN could be used to desalinate the water for FREE!
TheSea Salt has a market as well,
who knows what else is in the sea water?
Theres gold for sure....which could be recovered after evaporation....
There other metals as well....
The process would actuallt PAY FOR ITSELF< and provide free water.

reply to post by stirling


My uncle was the Deputy Director of California Department of Water Resources prior to Arnold and his pro development Water Buffalo's taking control. He then went to Planning and Conservation League and is considered to be the top "Water Guru" in the Country.

Trust me when I say your plan won't work. The loss from evaporation alone would be huge. If it could be done and done at a rate taxpayers can afford it would already be in the process of being constructed. Desalinization is the way things are going to have to go as there is little to no other choice for some areas. However it is expensive as hell and you can expect to see your water bill double or triple to provide such plants.

Is this the very same aquifer which the rich guy in texas built a nuclear waste dump on top of?
just askin....

Originally posted by stirling
Is this the very same aquifer which the rich guy in texas built a nuclear waste dump on top of?
just askin....

That would be yes. The waste dump is in Andrews county which is adjacent to the SE corner of New Mexico.

Originally posted by MuzzleBreak

Originally posted by stirling
Is this the very same aquifer which the rich guy in texas built a nuclear waste dump on top of?
just askin....

That would be yes. The waste dump is in Andrews county which is adjacent to the SE corner of New Mexico.

And if you will notice; the aquifer runs directly underneath the WIPP dump in New Mexico.

www.npr.org...

Originally posted by MuzzleBreak

So what are we going to do when there isn’t enough water to irrigate our crops or run through our water systems?

In any animal population that experiences a drastic shift in its natural habitat, the intelligent ones, and the adaptable ones (usually the intelligent), survive, or move on. The stupid and rigid ones die out, killed by their own inability to change with nature.

Perhaps thats the best solution here. Allow nature to take its course, have the smart animals adapt and survive, strengthening the species, and allow the dumb ones who cannot adapt to die, also strengthening the species, weeding out the weaker individuals and producing stronger and generally more intelligent ones down the line.

Unfortunately, allowing that to happen would probably result in massive population reductions, as most people know very little outside of how to work a "smart" phone while driving.

Or would that be a fortunate thing?

The future will favor those who are preparing now, probably not for themselves, but for their children, who will really be in the thick of it say 30 years from now.

Hell maybe 10 years from now. Major shifts can happen very quickly.

Originally posted by WanDash

Originally posted by Moshpet
The water needs of El Paso, Texas, are in large part supported by the desalination plant we have here.
...El Paso is a desert community and the Rio Grande isn't flowing like it used to, if at all in many areas. Pull up Google Earth and look at how dry the Rio Grande was in 2012, and note it is much drier than that, currently.
...If you have the luxury of having your own well, fine and dandy. But to preach about what you will and will not drink, is foolishness. Not to mention likely a misnomer, as the same water that is in the city system is also in your cola's, beers, foods and the like. Did you go to the movies recently & have a soda? Where do you think that water came from? Where was your beer made, and what water supply did they use? Have you made a can of soup lately?
...If there is water in any product you eat, drink and so on, and it says water on the label, it's not going to say, Water( May include chlorine, fluoride, trace minerals and heavy metals.) It is just going to say, WATER.
...So for all of anyone posturing on not drinking the 'fluoridated water or chlorinated water', you can now pat them on the head and say, "that's nice dear" in a Church lady voice. Because evidently they are just fooling themselves, and have not bothered to do a single bit of research.
...M.

Thanks for the education. (Whew!)
I read reports of those who did said research, many years ago -- [ pats itself on the head ] --

To most of your questions - the answer (for me) is "No".
But - that's neither here, nor there...as I don't speak for everyone.
I am well familiar with the woes of West Texas water supplies. I am also well aware that EVERYONE who has land...with a "fresh water spring" gurgling out of the ground, is trying to get investors - so they can become "the next" Evian or other such "bottled water" ga-jillionaire. I am also "well aware" that even those that have "water wells" in 'this' region are "hurting" with contaminated water... (you can probably guess at the origin of said contamination/s).

I am gathering from what you are saying - (if indeed, your answer actually spoke to this question) - that the desalination plants simply remove the "saline" from the water (or - is it the other way around? - remove the water from the saline...)...and then, the water is treated as in most other public water supplies...?

I do not know exactly the process they use it's not my field, though the web address indicates it is reverse osmosis. That said, I do know the salts and such that are removed from the water are returned to a 'safe' injection site, processed to a hefty concentration, and then returned to a deep repository. Most likely a brine cavern / salt dome.

web site Link

An inland desalination plant presents significantly more challenges. For the El Paso facility, test wells were needed to find a stable and consistent supply of brackish water. Hydrogeological studies were needed to determine the flow of the brackish water in the Hueco Bolson. Considerable testing, studies and pilot projects were performed to determine the most economically and environmentally sound means of disposing of the concentrate. The desalination plant uses reverse osmosis to obtain potable water from brackish water drawn from the Hueco Bolson. Raw water from new and existing wells is pumped to the plant and filtered before being sent to reverse osmosis membranes. Through a pressurized process, raw water will pass through fine membranes that separate salts and other contaminants from the water. Approximately 83% of the water is recovered while the remainder is output as a concentrate. At the conclusion of the reverse osmosis process, the permeate, or desalted water, is piped to a storage tank and the concentrate is routed to a disposal facility. The permeate will be blended with water from new wells. Following pH adjustment and disinfection, the finished water is sent to the distribution system.

Then the water is treated in the same manner as normal wells / river water are. Much as I am sure people would wonder why, there are hundreds if not millions of miles of pipe in a city; and those pipes are like any other, subject to breaks, leaks, and contamination. The chlorinated water helps to keep the diseases and other viru down, it is not like those pipes are sterile by any stretch of the imagination.

I know our water systems are fragile, I'll try and dig up an article where thieves filled their truck with diesel; and then left the nozzle running all night long. Because of the storm drain system goes to the river, and the river goes to the water plant... Mostly automated, mind you. It was bad enough, the water if let to sit in your glass, light refracted off the oil. Took several days to flush it out of the city water system.

M.

Originally posted by Moshpet
...I do not know exactly the process they use it's not my field, though the web address indicates it is reverse osmosis. That said, I do know the salts and such that are removed from the water are returned to a 'safe' injection site, processed to a hefty concentration, and then returned to a deep repository. Most likely a brine cavern / salt dome.
...
web site Link
...
Then the water is treated in the same manner as normal wells / river water are. Much as I am sure people would wonder why, there are hundreds if not millions of miles of pipe in a city; and those pipes are like any other, subject to breaks, leaks, and contamination. The chlorinated water helps to keep the diseases and other viru down, it is not like those pipes are sterile by any stretch of the imagination.

I know our water systems are fragile, I'll try and dig up an article where thieves filled their truck with diesel; and then left the nozzle running all night long. Because of the storm drain system goes to the river, and the river goes to the water plant... Mostly automated, mind you. It was bad enough, the water if let to sit in your glass, light refracted off the oil. Took several days to flush it out of the city water system.

...

My favorite - "Recycled Sewage"!
Oh My God!
That's what they're doing in Big Spring...
I don't recall how many stages 'til it returns to the "tap"...but - !!!!!!
People living downwind of one of the earlier stages have been crying like babies (like I would) when those vats get 'turned over'.
Wonder how many municipalities are using this method/process/source? Wonder how many citizens know.

The lack of rainfall is being predicted and will be dealt with by geoclimatologists in the future. Seawater will be converted to fresh water and pumped inland or increased rainfall in Canada will be sent south via a series of aqueducts all the way down to Mexico if necessary. The bill will be paid by the future Confederation of North America. Thank you and next post please. My best,

I know if I was wanting to do bulk desalination, vacuum (flash) distillation would be the way to go. Primarily as a co-gen process using the waste heat of a multi-megawatt steam turbine system supplying the electrical grid. (Because a lot of that heat from power production is just that, wasted.) However with a lot of people leaning away from nuclear or fossil fuel based systems, it makes it a bit more difficult to plan around in the future. (Likely why desalination is used more per-population in developing countries than developed ones.)

RO is a neat high-tech process and uses much less space, but tends to be more expensive and fiddly to deal with and there's still material waste from all the spent filters. Vacuum distillation is pretty stupid-simple in comparison once in a steady state, only hard part is keeping mineralization on the brine side under control. The heat energy can be expensive if just for distillation, but it can be very cheap if from another process where you want to get rid of it.

I suppose there could be other things besides power production that need bulk evaporative cooling that could act as a heat source, but who would put something like a large datacenter out in the ocean?

Anyhow the tech and engineering knowhow to make freshwater from the oceans is there and well-known, it's just the economics limiting where and how it happens. This would definitely help the coastal regions stay wet, but I'm still not sure if it'd help the aquifer users a whole lot - depends on how much any large pipelines would pay off.

I doubt it would work on a grand scale, but if you're in an area that gets dew in the morning or fog, look into fog nets:

akvopedia.org...

Im sittin here reading all the poor me's about no water in the desert....Thinking.......Move where the frikin WATER is,... look around.....its a desert...you know what it will be a 1000 years from now...It'll be a frikiin desert!!!

Just a joke people jees... i wonder why they dont pump a few percents of water from the Mississippi River into these critical resevoirs?

Major Rivers in North America are exporting millions of gallons of fresh water into the ocean every year.

Something intelligent ought to be done about that.

Reading the Wikipedia article on Death Valley is very interesting. Back in time, the area was much wetter.

en.wikipedia.org...

During the Pleistocene ice age, which ended roughly 10,000–12,000 years ago, the Sierra Nevada was much wetter. During that time, Death Valley was filled with a huge lake, called Glacial Lake Manly, that was nearly 100 miles long and 600 feet deep, the end-basin in a chain of lakes that began with Mono Lake in the north and continued through multiple basins down the Owens River Valley through Searles and China Lakes and the Panamint Valley to the immediate west.[23] Remnants of this wetter period can still be seen in the region today, including the presence of several isolated populations of pupfish that still call the region home.[24]

Being 282 feet below sea level in places, Death Valley presents a possible opportunity to siphon water from the Pacific Ocean into a large inland containment area where desalination plants could be set up and natural evaporation of lake water might possibly alter the rainfall pattern of the Southwest. (I'm not an engineer or climatologist. This stuff would have to be studied carefully.)

Art Bell should start investing in recreational development properties near the edge of the valley.

Originally posted by MuzzleBreak
So what are we going to do when there isn’t enough water to irrigate our crops or run through our water systems?

The same as with all problems, hope you be gone by then and leave it to your grandchildren to sort those problems out. Or people could start building huge irrigation systems running from east to west draining from the ocean and desalinizing/purifying it even though it would cost more.

I have always loved the desert. One sits down on a desert sand dune, sees nothing, hears nothing. Yet through the silence something throbs, and gleams. ANTOINE DE SAINT-EXUPÉRY, The Little Prince
A desert is a place without expectation. NADINE GORDIMER, Telling Times
I had to live in the desert before I could understand the full value of grass in a green ditch. ELLA MAILLART,
Forbidden Journey And all around is the desert; a corner of the mournful kingdom of sand. PIERRE LOTI,
Egypt In the desert, the only god is a well. VERA NAZARIAN, Dreams of the Compass Rose
Anything built here, an unrelenting desert, was an act of sheer will imposed on territory unsuited for habitation. DAVE EGGERS, A Hologram for the King

reply to post by StumpDrummer


The desert is a microcosm, where subtle or drastic changes give the warning signs of the dangers ahead for the rest of the planet. There is a balance in the desert and it is easier to note the effects of environmental impacts. Ironically, the biggest threat to the desert is that man is disrupting the natural water cycle. As evidenced by the Rio Grande, or by the water shortages which are not the historical norm for the state, if you look at the 200+ years of its existence.

As for why live in a desert or desert community?

Tornadoes are rare, hurricanes are non existent. Flooding occasionally happens, but not the prolonged flooding that happens in the midwest. Dust storms are annoying, but not a real hazard if you stay out of them or cover your face as needed. Snow or extreme cold, at least where I live, is minimal. Yes it gets hot, duh. But it is a dry heat

People have lived in deserts for thousands of years, and the people have adapted to living in the desert; after all you can't force the desert to adapt to the people. The desert does not care who you are, how strong or how weak, rich or poor; it only knows one real rule. Endure, or die.

Why stay in a desert city or the desert itself, even with the threat of climate change and mass stupidity caused by people not willing to see the change ahead of them? Security and education, anyone who does not understand how to live in the desert under its rules will die or adapt. If you survive the lessons of a desert, you are stronger, more patient and you know the importance of water.

Given the risk of another Great Dust Bowl, which is ironic since poor farming practices had a direct impact on it; within the next 5-10 years. (Hello Monsanto, and your insecticide resistant super bugs, and wasteful farming techniques.) Not to mention the growing severity of storms due to climate change. I'd say my choice of place to live is sound.

M.

Originally posted by Moshpet
...Tornadoes are rare, hurricanes are non existent. Flooding occasionally happens, but not the prolonged flooding that happens in the midwest. Dust storms are annoying, but not a real hazard if you stay out of them or cover your face as needed. Snow or extreme cold, at least where I live, is minimal. Yes it gets hot, duh. But it is a dry heat

...The desert...only knows one real rule. Endure, or die.
...Why stay in a desert city or the desert itself...? ...If you survive the lessons of a desert, you are stronger, more patient and you know the importance of water.
...

Have to give some thumbs-up for NO tornadoes & hurricanes.
The dust is GREAT!
Personally - I love the wildlife (horney-toads , lizards, javelinas, roadrunners, and all kinds of birds)...and the vegetation (many varieties of cactus & sage). Almost no humidity!!!!...or humility (tangent)...
But - nowadays, if you're not prepared...it can be a loooonnnngggg walk between drinks of water.