Spirituality & Becoming What We Aren’t.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
One cannot transcend over anything he already is. We cannot simply remove aspects of ourselves, call ourselves spiritual, and be a completely new person. No, we're the same person no matter what we think or how we act. This needs to be addressed by all who claim themselves spiritual, or somehow paradoxically more human (our true nature) than what they already are.

To try to eliminate anything is more futile seeking. Simply find out if what or who you think you are, is all that you are.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
Why do they tell us to stop thinking? Why do they tell us to meditate? Why must we pray? Why must we believe a certain doctrine or other? Why must we go to church? Why should we run from our reason? Why must we follow commandments? Why must engage in strange rituals?—they sell to us the idea that we need to escape ourselves, become something else, become like them! That is what modern spirituality amounts to these days: fear of oneself.

You don't have to do any of those things. However, you will likely want to meditate on occasion when you tire of constantly seeking to stay active and distracted from being simply who you are without all the bodily seeking to become something else.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
I think the first step is honesty. A "yes, this is what I am" accepting of oneself, to finally meet oneself in the flesh. From there we become sovereign over ourselves rather then executioner. That's it. Honesty is all spirituality calls for. Finally embrace oneself instead of transcend oneself.

Yes, definitely honesty is completely necessary. You must be real - but the real person will also see that the body-mind is inherently seeking to become, regardless of whether that is called spiritual or religious or something else.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
Finally embrace oneself instead of transcend oneself.

Yes, embrace our whole reality and participate in it fully, free of seeking to become something else! Only then will we discover the truth of the body-mind, whatever that is altogether.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope

“Spiritual but not religious”—a strange statement, somewhat contradictory, but psychologically interesting; because despite its supposed banishment of religion, it is still a religious practice, mainly the worship of divinity.

I would disagree with you there. I consider myself a spiritual person, but I "worship" nothing. I think it would help if you were to clarify what your definitions of "religion" and "spirituality" are. My personal understandings are as follows:

Religion: A formalised, structured set of beliefs centred around the deification of a supernatural being / beings

Spirituality: The notion that there is more to life than meets the eye; the idea that our existence isn't just a statistically unlikely insignificance; the rejection of religion (as defined above)

I think your definition of spirituality (from what I can gather from your post) is quite narrow - it seems to me that when you say "spirituality" you're really referring to "New Age religion". They are two very different concepts.

Spirituality was harvested from the same culture, history, and the very foundations of religious thought.

Again, I would disagree with this. I think it happened the other way round - people with a natural inclination towards spiritual thinking and hypothesising paved the way for the organisation and institutionalisation of these ideas - hence, religion.

“Spiritual” is an adjective. Therefore, spirituality is not a state of being; it is a state of appearance.

Possibly the weakest point of your argument, I'm afraid. "Tall" is an adjective. But it is also a state of being. A man can BE tall. It is not a question of appearances. If he's 6'7", he IS tall.

Could you clarify what you mean when you say spirituality "is a state of appearance"? How does one "appear" spiritual? As I said, I consider myself a spiritual person. Does that mean you could look at me and say I appear to be so? I very much doubt it.

If what you are referring to is those people who choose to make a SHOW of being "spiritual" - i.e. humble, pious, charitable, etc. - this is not spirituality, this is ego. This is about the desire to be viewed a certain way by others, and has nothing to do with spirituality.

... to be human, one must only be human. As thinking beings, everyone is, by definition, already spiritual.

I agree with you in the sense that we all have "spirit" within us, and the potential to tap into that element. But some people live their entire lives without once focusing on that aspect of themselves. I would say that a spiritual person is one who actively explores this area and considers its implications. Drawing conclusions isn't entirely necessary - no-one can ever truly KNOW what the deal is, however much they'd like to pretend they do. But thinking about our role as a species on this planet, and as individuals interacting with each other, has the potential to inspire creativity, love, co-operation, and, IMHO, progress.

But thinking is the enemy—isn’t that so my friends? Isn’t that what the spiritual ones promote?

Far from it. I consider myself a sceptic and a rationalist. For me, the ability to think is mankind's greatest gift. I don't just swallow anything I'm told; I require sufficient evidence to remove reasonable doubt.

That said, I believe that our current understanding of the laws of physics is incomplete, and it frustrates me no end that some people who call themselves scientists will reject an idea out of hand because it doesn't fit our current model. The whole point of science, as I understand it, is to accept that our knowledge is incomplete, to reject dogmatism and closed-mindedness. People used to believe the Earth was flat, and that the Sun revolved around it. Sooner or later, scientific thought is updated, as the old beliefs are revealed to be incorrect.

spirituality is similar to all religion insofar as it is not a way of life, but a way out of life, a way to limit life, a way beyond life for a stake in what comes after it.

While I won't deny that I'm fascinated with what might lie on the other side, that isn't the be all and end all of my spirituality. I have no desire to limit my life - it's mine, I'm living it, and I want to enjoy it as much as possible. My spirituality is very closely linked to my philosophy, and my philosophy focuses on making the space I inhabit as peaceful as possible (in my view, peace is preferable to conflict).

It vows the hedonistic comforts of joy, satiation and bliss. It promises states of ecstasy and understanding in our own self-denial.

My spirituality promises nothing. It is (like myself) a work in progress, and I am happy to continue developing it. The only things I idolise are love, kindness and compassion: that way, the future lies...

reply to post by CuriousAchilles

Possibly the weakest point of your argument, I'm afraid. "Tall" is an adjective. But it is also a state of being. A man can BE tall. It is not a question of appearances. If he's 6'7", he IS tall.

Could you clarify what you mean when you say spirituality "is a state of appearance"? How does one "appear" spiritual? As I said, I consider myself a spiritual person. Does that mean you could look at me and say I appear to be so? I very much doubt it.

You call yourself spiritual, but are in fact any spiritual than anyone else? Not likely. Only by calling yourself spiritual, an adjective, can you claim you are more spiritual than anyone else. But this isn't the case. The very act of calling yourself spiritual shows that you want to appear spiritual to others. Why else would you let everyone know you're spiritual? Is there a point to this? What do you prove? You only prove that you like to call yourself spiritual. It is a declaration. Yet you are no more spiritual than anyone else.

Tall is an adjective because one appears tall in relation to the one he is appearing to. Do you call a mouse "tall" even if he was the tallest mouse in the world? No, he is a mouse. Nothing in his being has changed except the way he appears to something else. "Spiritual" is a descriptive word, and I don't find it necessary to teach anyone what an adjective is.

If what you are referring to is those people who choose to make a SHOW of being "spiritual" - i.e. humble, pious, charitable, etc. - this is not spirituality, this is ego. This is about the desire to be viewed a certain way by others, and has nothing to do with spirituality.

This is exactly the reason why someone would call themselves spiritual. Why do you personally feel the need to exclaim that you are spiritual? What are you trying to prove by taking this label upon yourself? It's the simple vain act of wishing to appear a certain way to others. Would anything change if you didn't call yourself spiritual? No. It's a costume.

reply to post by bb23108

Yes, definitely honesty is completely necessary. You must be real - but the real person will also see that the body-mind is inherently seeking to become, regardless of whether that is called spiritual or religious or something else.

I agree. This seeking is a part of our being and existence. What I'm asking is should we attempt to destroy this drive, or embrace its obvious power and use it to the best of our ability?

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Is that supposed to mean something?
I know what I am but do you know what you are? Because until you know for sure what you are - you will suffer. When you know for sure what you are - the suffering ceases.

You have created an ideal version of yourself in which you find yourself emotionally and intellectually satisfying. "Knowing for sure what you are" involves being obedient to a certain invented idea, an egotistic drive for an identity. Pretending it is a spirituality for all men is folly. It's your ideal. It's your spirituality.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
I agree. This seeking is a part of our being and existence. What I'm asking is should we attempt to destroy this drive, or embrace its obvious power and use it to the best of our ability?

It's not like you have to "embrace its obvious power" as some kind of specific act - the body-mind will do this regardless. Nor should we "attempt to destroy this drive" - that is just futile self-denial.

It is a matter of noticing more and more profoundly that this constant seeking to become something else is separative and idealistic, and is actually what is keeping the body-mind from fully embracing the reality within which it arises as well as its greatest potential for truly embracing life itself.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope

I agree. This seeking is a part of our being and existence. What I'm asking is should we attempt to destroy this drive, or embrace its obvious power and use it to the best of our ability?

What I gather from this is that you'd prefer not to be at peace with yourself as you are now, but to live in constant desire to become something 'better'? Isn't the rejection of this idea the whole reason you authored this thread? You say "use it to the best of our ability". To what end? The best of our ability to do what?

"God is spirit and truth."
~ Jesus

Why do you personally feel the need to exclaim that you are spiritual? What are you trying to prove by taking this label upon yourself? It's the simple vain act of wishing to appear a certain way to others. Would anything change if you didn't call yourself spiritual? No. It's a costume.

I honestly don't care what your opinion of me is. I don't know you, you don't know me. What you think of me, or how I appear to you has no bearing on my life. I'm not "trying to prove" anything. I don't measure my self-esteem based on what strangers on internet forums think of me.

I was just trying to respectfully disagree with your interpretation of "spirituality". I feel that the narrow way in which you are viewing it is detrimental to your own understanding. What's the motto here? "Deny ignorance." Ignorance, as I'm sure you know, is the state of not knowing something. By automatically disregarding everything I've said because it contradicts your personal views, you are denying yourself another vantage point from which to look at things.

You're entitled to believe what you wish, of course. But your worldview (forgive me if I'm wrong) comes across as extremely cynical, which I find sad. If, however, looking at things this way makes you happy, then, well, whatever works for you.

Peace.

This is True Spirituality... As many have said here they care more for the traditions of men than they do of Truth... The Spirit Seeks A Soul... Then the Spirit Is Given A Body To Dwell And Grow...

The Ancient One
by Bearwalker

Ancient One sat in the shade of his tree in front of his cave. Red People came to him and he said to Red People, "Tell me your vision."

And Red People answered, "The elders have told us to pray in this manner, and that manner, and it is important that only we pray as we have been taught for this has been handed down to us by the elders."

"Hmmmm," said the Ancient One.

Then Black People came to him and he said to Black People, "Tell me your vision."

And Black People answered, "Our mothers have said to go to this building and that building and pray in this manner and that manner. And our fathers have said to bow in this manner and that manner when we pray. And it is important that we do only this when we pray."

"Hmmmm," said the Ancient One.

Then Yellow People came to him and he said to Yellow People, "Tell me your vision."

And Yellow People answered, "Our teachers have told us to sit in this manner and that manner and to say this thing and that thing when we pray. And it is important that we do only this when we pray."

"Hmmmm," said the Ancient One.

Then White People came to him and he said to White People, "Tell me your vision."

And White People answered, "Our Book has told us to pray in this way and that way and to do this thing and that thing, and it is very important that we do this when we pray."

"Hmmmm," said the Ancient One.

Then Ancient One spoke to the Earth and said, "Have you given the people a vision?" And the Earth said, "Yes, a special gift for each one, but the people were so busy speaking and arguing about which way is right they could not see the gift I gave each one of them." And the Ancient One asked same question of Water and Fire and Air and got the same answer. Then Ancient One asked Animal, and Bird, and Insect, and Tree, and Flower, and Sky, and Moon, and Sun, and Stars, and all of the other Spirits and each told him the same.

Ancient One thought this was very sad. He called Red People, Black People, Yellow People, and White People to him and said to them. "The ways taught to you by your Elders, and your Mothers and Fathers, and Teachers, and Books are sacred. It is good that you respect those ways, for they are the ways of your ancestors. But the ancestors no longer walk on the Face of the Earth Mother. You have forgotten your own Vision. Your Vision is right for you but no one else. Now each of you must pray for your own Visions, and be still enough to see them, so you can follow the way of the heart. It is a hard way. It is a good way.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

Whether anyone agrees with me or not is not my concern. I would rather they figure it out for themselves. I'm only pointing out the contradictions and paradoxes, signs that something is amiss.

although I didnt agree with your 1st sentence but this makes your point about the thread very clear to me now

reply to post by CuriousAchilles

I honestly don't care what your opinion of me is. I don't know you, you don't know me. What you think of me, or how I appear to you has no bearing on my life. I'm not "trying to prove" anything. I don't measure my self-esteem based on what strangers on internet forums think of me.

I honestly don't care if you don't care. I never gave an opinion of you. You said you were spiritual. What you are trying to promote by saying this is your own doing. Why say you are something if you don't expect someone to react to it? Why argue a point if you cannot back it up? You are measuring yourself here. I don't know you. I only know what you assert and promote about yourself in my direction. I'm thinking about your arguments, not you in the slightest. So please offer me the same respect. Keep your opinions about me as a person to yourself.

I was just trying to respectfully disagree with your interpretation of "spirituality". I feel that the narrow way in which you are viewing it is detrimental to your own understanding. What's the motto here? "Deny ignorance." Ignorance, as I'm sure you know, is the state of not knowing something. By automatically disregarding everything I've said because it contradicts your personal views, you are denying yourself another vantage point from which to look at things.

That's the problem. Too much "feeling". I too am respectfully disagreeing with your interpretation of spirituality, not because it hurts the feelings, but because it rationally seems narrow and superficial, which I find is "detrimental to your understanding". You mention I'm giving opinions of you and then hypocritically turn around and give opinions of me. "By automatically disregarding everything I've said because it contradicts your personal views, you are denying yourself another vantage point from which to look at things." Double-standards and dishonesty. Denying ignorance? How about first practice what we preach.

You're entitled to believe what you wish, of course. But your worldview (forgive me if I'm wrong) comes across as extremely cynical, which I find sad. If, however, looking at things this way makes you happy, then, well, whatever works for you.

If one promotes an ideal because it feels good, or disregard another because it feels sad, all rationality is lost.

Good luck.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope

If one promotes an ideal because it feels good, or disregard another because it feels sad, all rationality is lost.

What's more rational than feeling good? What more do you want out of your life? Honestly...

reply to post by HarryTZ

What's more rational than feeling good? What more do you want out of your life? Honestly...

Finally—some honesty. Thank you. The goal of all spiritual endeavours is bodily satisfaction? I couldn't have said it better myself.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


Who said anything about bodily satisfaction? Do you truly believe that that is the deepest experience?

reply to post by HarryTZ


Don't waste your time. I'm not going to anymore. LesMis believes what he / she wants to believe. I'm just going to leave it.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
"God is spirit and truth."
~ Jesus

And furthermore, within this "re-frame" of God, Jesus told the woman at the well that as spirit and truth God seeks worshipers (communers) who worship in spirit and in truth, nothing more, and that the day will come and has already come when those worshippers will worship neither on the mountain or in the temple (religious observances) but wherever the approach to God is made in spirit and in truth.

Thus, this whole attempt to conflate religion with spirituality is flawed.

What is the spirit? I think it's a spirit of the universe (and of eterna life, as God), which is fully informed, infinitely intelligent and, like the wind that blows where it will and while you can hear it or feel it (know that it's present) you cannot tell from where it comes or wither it goes - is radically free, as are those who are re-born from above and of the spirit.

A truly spiritual person is aware that being re-born from above is to never die, because their essential self and self-identification isn't with the material but the invisible spirit which never dies because it is God. And it has nothing to do with "bodily satisfaction" but the kind of satisfaction that is still available even when the body starts falling apart and which transcends the physical body and thus the material world whereby consciousness, not matter is primary (first/last, Alpha and Omega).

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Nicodemus and Jesus - Reborn
go to 2:24 in the vid - segment runs to 5:35

Note catefully the subtle nuances (intentionally directed) in this exchange between Jesus and Nicodemus surrounding the issue of rebirth.

"What is born of the flesh is flesh but of the spirit, spirit."

When Jesus said "do not marvel when I say that you must be born again" he knew that Nicodemus, by asking "can a man enter his mother's womb a second time?" was aware that Jesus was an illegitimate child, but of course Jesus was speaking of something not visible or physical.

Perhaps this might help the OP or other philosophical materialist atheists to consider and ponder this whole notion of spirit in a new light hey anything's possible..

Best regards,

NAM

reply to post by CuriousAchilles

Don't waste your time. I'm not going to anymore. LesMis believes what he / she wants to believe. I'm just going to leave it.

This is actually quite typical of a religious psychology. To avoid something because it's too difficult to rectify. This isn't spirituality, this is fear. I believe what I believe because no one can plead a decent case otherwise.

Are you simply unable to justify your opinions? Did you just wish to tell someone they are wrong without offering any reason why? That's called dogma.

reply to post by HarryTZ

Who said anything about bodily satisfaction? Do you truly believe that that is the deepest experience?

Who said anything about bodily satisfaction being the deepest experience? You did, many times:

I still see nothing wrong with hedonism.

What's more rational than feeling good? What more do you want out of your life? Honestly...

The experience is joy. There is nothing 'deeper' in life (and existence) than joy.

hedonism |ˈhēdnˌizəm|
noun
the pursuit of pleasure; sensual self-indulgence.
• the ethical theory that pleasure (in the sense of the satisfaction of desires) is the highest good and proper aim of human life.

joy |joi|
noun
a feeling of great pleasure and happiness: tears of joy | the joy of being alive.
• a thing that causes joy: the joys of Manhattan.

Joy? Pleasure? Happiness? Bodily satisfaction. Self-indulgence.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

A truly spiritual person is aware that being re-born from above is to never die, because their essential self and self-identification isn't with the material but the invisible spirit which never dies because it is God.

Spirits do not die because they do not live. Which are you?

The "materialist atheist mindset": you say it like it's an insult. Is there something wrong with existing?