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Pope Francis: Even Atheists are Redeemed

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posted on May, 24 2013 @ 12:20 PM
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reply to post by windword
 

You know I have a lot of respect for you, I have less for The Huffington Post. Every group has it's jargon, or specialized language, sometimes a word doesn't mean what we think it does. Take these sentences, for example:

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all!
if one takes this to mean that "redeemed" is the same as "in heaven with God forever," one reaches extremely questionable results. Taking it that way would mean that once Jesus died, everyone born thereafter was going to heaven regardless of their beliefs or actions. Mother Theresa, Adolf Hitler, Stalin, everybody, all in heaven with no other consideration. That would eliminate the practice of confession, or even baptism to cleanse Original Sin. No, the Pope doesn't mean that.

What the "Blood of Christ" did was to make Heaven a possibility for us. It didn't say that we're going to Heaven, it said that we were no longer bound by Satan with no hope of escape. His death did that for everyone. Heaven is now an option for each of us.

Even if "everyone goes to Heaven" were true, it contradicts the rest of the article, which you claim says that good deeds are required for entrance to Heaven. It can't be both "everybody," and "only good deed doers." Apparently, the article contradicts itself.

So, what's all this talk about good deeds?

And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”
The Pope wants to end the walls we've put up between us. If we are all engaged in doing good, then we will meet at the soup kitchens, or the hospitals, or schools, or the rescue teams. We will meet each other where we perform service, we will create the "culture of encounter" he speaks about.

He is not breaking new ground, he is reminding us of old truths. We are all God's children, we must treat each other with respect and love, we must shove no one away. We can find common ground when we meet in loving service. Catholics, and the world, should only be shocked if that message has been forgotten.

www.news.va...

With respect,
Charles1952




posted on May, 24 2013 @ 12:31 PM
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A Pope of Universal Reconciliation? Cool!

You know, not even the members the the Westboro Baptist Church are going to Hell - Lake of Fire, maybe, but you can't be sent to a 404.

Even Hitler will someday walk around in a white robe, as a former Nazi, arm-in-arm with former Jews and former Commies...



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 12:46 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


Yay!! I really, really like this guy. From the beginning. He's proving himself sincere in intent, but it remains to be seen if he's got the leadership to MAKE IT HAPPEN!!

But poor Stephen! What a downer for him!



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 12:49 PM
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apparently jehova god has gotten tired of dining on the souls of the believers and is looking for something new on his menu!

this new pope scares me!



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 12:52 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


Well, Charles, I would have to deffer to you, to compare what the Pope "apparently" said, and how that applies to the principles of Catholicism, as I'm not Catholic. However, the way I see it, the interpretation lies in the way we define the word"redeemed".

Didn't Jesus conquer sin, including "Original Sin"? Hitler, Herod, Pontius Pilot, Caligula, are all members of the "God Created" human race and are reflections of its darker attributes. I don't believe that the mythology of the symbolic sacrifice of Jesus was meant to represent redemption for only "good" people, but to elevate the very attributes that are allowed to persist throughout the future. What good is the sacrifice of Jesus if he couldn't reach into the deepest perversions of humanity and redeem humanity as a holistic body of consciousness? After all, he is called the "Son of Man".

It seems to me that you're interpreting the Pope's words to mean, when he says "everyone is redeemed" to infer that "everyone who is not evil is redeemed." But, even so, the Pope wasn't addressing evil, he was addressing atheism. I think what he was saying was that, one can be redeemed by good deeds, regardless of belief. Whether or not redeemed means a free pass to heaven or not, redemption is the gift of the sacrifice of Jesus, and everyone is redeemed through good works.


For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


What is "The Law"?


Matthew 22:36
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.


Good works and obedience to God's Law are one in the same, in the eyes of God.


And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.






edit on 24-5-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 12:58 PM
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reply to post by Murgatroid
 


I'll take that as a joke.
That was pretty hilarious.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 01:22 PM
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For all you atheists

1. See religious people show you respect.
2. Can you show the same respect back
3. One of us is wrong, if its you the consequences are worse. If its me, no harm no foul.

Please respond to this with the usual I'm so smart that I figured out the universe and you are backward thing.

Thank you



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 01:23 PM
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Originally posted by tinhattribunal
apparently jehova god has gotten tired of dining on the souls of the believers and is looking for something new on his menu!

this new pope scares me!





Dude he's located far from you. What are you worried about? You should be more scared of the local cops



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 01:28 PM
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reply to post by LastStarfighter
 





See religious people show you respect.


That's why this topic is so newsworthy, and it's causing uproar and debate all over the world!



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 01:36 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by LastStarfighter
 





See religious people show you respect.


That's why this topic is so newsworthy, and it's causing uproar and debate all over the world!



Its unusual huh? Its not respectful to give money to poor people and treat others the way you like to be treated?
There are bad atheists and christians. Stop grouping people like cattle. I thought ATS wasn't about that kind of non-truth head in the sand stuff.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 01:37 PM
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Thanks, Fran, for nothing on the heaven matterlessness.






posted on May, 24 2013 @ 01:45 PM
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reply to post by windword
 

Dear windword,

You're definitely very near the tippy-top of posters, thanks. (And if you tell anybody I said "tippy-top," I'll come and steal your cookies.) I think I can see our way clear from the confusion.


However, the way I see it, the interpretation lies in the way we define the word"redeemed".
You're absolutely right. Let's try this. Someone goes to the pawnshop, borrows money on the family watch. If he gets enough money in time, he can go back to the pawnshop and redeem the watch. Jesus gets out out of the pawnshop of Satan (Neat name for a band?) and sets us free again. But we're free, not necessarily in Heaven.


Didn't Jesus conquer sin, including "Original Sin"? Hitler, Herod, Pontius Pilot, Caligula, are all members of the "God Created" human race and are reflections of its darker attributes.
You're right, again. Consider Adam and Eve. I'm not advancing any opinion on whether there were just the two of them, etc. The point is that they were in a state where sin didn't even exist. They were given instructions and chose to disobey them, thereby sinning and getting evicted from Paradise for ever. Jesus got us back to where we stand at the open door of Paradise and gives each of us a choice. Walk in, or follow evil and become Kings in our own territory outside of Heaven.


I don't believe that the mythology of the symbolic sacrifice of Jesus was meant to represent redemption for only "good" people, but to elevate the very attributes that are allowed to persist throughout the future.
We're back into the jungle of words again. If it was just a symbolic sacrifice, "representing" something, I'd be a lot less impressed. But you're right, it isn't just for good people. He died for everybody, and specifically said He had come for the sinners.


What good is the sacrifice of Jesus if he couldn't reach into the deepest perversions of humanity and redeem humanity as a holistic body of consciousness? After all, he is called the "Son of Man".
I'm a little confused by the words here. I'm not sure what a "holistic body of consciousness" is. I have to make do with the belief that He came to redeem me, you, every individual.


It seems to me that you're interpreting the Pope's words to mean, when he says "everyone is redeemed" to infer that "everyone who is not evil is redeemed."
I'm really sorry for creating that impression. Everyone is redeemed. I believe and accept that. We have all been set free from sin.

Try this. America was set free from the tyranny of the British. That's not a guarantee that we won't choose to submit to some other tyranny (representing going back into bondage to Satan). Here on ATS, many think we already have.


But, even so, the Pope wasn't addressing evil, he was addressing atheism. I think what he was saying was that, one can be redeemed by good deeds, regardless of belief. Whether or not redeemed means a free pass to heaven or not, redemption is the gift of the sacrifice of Jesus, and everyone is redeemed through good works.
I'm confused here, but that happens a lot. I thought we were redeemed by Jesus, and got to heaven through love and faith. Good deeds are often a sign we have that faith, but consider your own verse:

Matthew 22:36
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.


Good works and obedience to God's Law are one in the same, in the eyes of God.
This gets us into a little more complicated area. I'm happy to bat it around with you if you'd like, but I'm kind of interested in straightening out this "redeemed" mess first, if you don't mind.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 01:48 PM
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I cannot wait for the Chick Tract where there would be a controversy of Pope Francis saying a nice thing about atheist.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 01:52 PM
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reply to post by LastStarfighter
 



Originally posted by LastStarfighter
1. See religious people show you respect.


ONE religious person. That's why this is of note - because it's so unusual. Religious people usually have horrible things to say about atheists.



2. Can you show the same respect back


I do it all the time. The way I treat religious people is not dependent on how they treat me. I have my own standards on how to treat people, religious or not.



3. One of us is wrong, if its you the consequences are worse. If its me, no harm no foul.


Belief is a funny thing. I can't think... What if I'm wrong? I better start believing in God on the chance that they're right and I'm wrong. I can't "force" myself to believe in something that I don't believe in. I also couldn't be part of a movement who feel the way they do simply to avoid bad consequences.



Please respond to this with the usual I'm so smart that I figured out the universe and you are backward thing.


What was that you were saying about respect? Like I said, the pope is ONE person. The previous statement is VERY disrespectful.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 02:13 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 

Dear Benevolent Heretic,

This is off-topic, more like a rant, but I'd like some advice.

The existence of God, and our relationship to Him, may be the fundamental question of life. How we answer it is of vital importance to everyone. On this question, much more so than things like UFOs, and 9/11, shouldn't we be working with each other to get to as much truth as we can? Researching, talking, listening, thinking.

Why, on this subject, do people have to be so bitter and aggressive? What can we do to get this back on track? What can anybody do? What can I do?

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 02:15 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


In my opinion, you and Benevolent are two of the "tippy-top" posters on here.
Calm and reasonable discussion is required.
It's people who are willing to discuss things - and yes, this topic is perhaps a primary one that needs "solving" - that make things change.




posted on May, 24 2013 @ 02:53 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 



Originally posted by charles1952
The existence of God, and our relationship to Him, may be the fundamental question of life. How we answer it is of vital importance to everyone. On this question, much more so than things like UFOs, and 9/11, shouldn't we be working with each other to get to as much truth as we can? Researching, talking, listening, thinking.


I don't think of it in terms of a "relationship with God". I think of it in terms of my own personal spiritual growth, whatever that may be. WE DON'T KNOW if there is a God. So, by talking about "our relationship with God" we are limited to that "truth" (that there IS a God).

So, I prefer to work on my own spiritual growth. And I think it's a path that only I can walk. It's a personal journey, so, while I share my beliefs sometimes and meet others along the way, I don't expect anyone to feel or believe the same way I do. I don't believe we are here to cling together in groups that all believe the same thing. I think that causes wars.

I do agree that a person's spiritual growth (and our species' spiritual growth) is far more important than 9/11 or UFOs, though.




Why, on this subject, do people have to be so bitter and aggressive?


I cannot answer that. I feel no animosity for people who believe differently than I do. It doesn't threaten my beliefs or insult me in any way. I don't know why some (most?) are so aggressive and defensive when it comes to personal beliefs.



What can we do to get this back on track? What can anybody do? What can I do?


My only thought on that is to live by example. I have a saying that I try to live by. My purpose here is to strengthen the good will that exists in the world. I fail miserably many times, but it's something that I aspire to.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 02:57 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


So if atheists are redeemed by what they do, then what was the purpose of Jesus dying? I thought faith was required to be saved or redeemed? Seems like he's contradicting the organization he is the head of. Not that I disagree with him, but he seems to be contradicting what Paul taught in his epistles, that of faith over works.

This Francis guy I like so far, he seems to be breaking down the barriers that Catholicism has put up over the past thousand years. Good on him.
edit on 24-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 02:59 PM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 


I guess that make sense. To be honest whether Pope Francis said something bad or nice about atheist. It wouldn't mean much to us. As an atheist I have a disbelief in the concept of God. Which goes against the idea of heaven or the afterlife in general.



posted on May, 24 2013 @ 03:01 PM
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reply to post by Murgatroid
 


Please be quiet. You are a walking contradiction in yourself. No one deserves to go to hell to suffer for eternity for only a few short years on Earth, the idea is ridiculous. That's like a number one pick being kicked out of the NFL for throwing a bad pass on his first attempt, not very fair if you ask me.





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