reply to post by windword
You're definitely very near the tippy-top of posters, thanks. (And if you tell anybody
I said "tippy-top," I'll come and steal your
cookies.) I think I can see our way clear from the confusion.
However, the way I see it, the interpretation lies in the way we define the word"redeemed".
You're absolutely right. Let's try
this. Someone goes to the pawnshop, borrows money on the family watch. If he gets enough money in time, he can go back to the pawnshop and redeem
the watch. Jesus gets out out of the pawnshop of Satan (Neat name for a band?) and sets us free again. But we're free, not necessarily in
Didn't Jesus conquer sin, including "Original Sin"? Hitler, Herod, Pontius Pilot, Caligula, are all members of the "God Created" human
race and are reflections of its darker attributes.
You're right, again. Consider Adam and Eve. I'm not advancing any opinion on whether
there were just the two of them, etc. The point is that they were in a state where sin didn't even exist. They were given instructions and chose to
disobey them, thereby sinning and getting evicted from Paradise for ever. Jesus got us back to where we stand at the open door of Paradise and gives
each of us a choice. Walk in, or follow evil and become Kings in our own territory outside of Heaven.
I don't believe that the mythology of the symbolic sacrifice of Jesus was meant to represent redemption for only "good" people, but to
elevate the very attributes that are allowed to persist throughout the future.
We're back into the jungle of words again. If it was just a
symbolic sacrifice, "representing" something, I'd be a lot less impressed. But you're right, it isn't just for good people. He died for
everybody, and specifically said He had come for the sinners.
What good is the sacrifice of Jesus if he couldn't reach into the deepest perversions of humanity and redeem humanity as a holistic body of
consciousness? After all, he is called the "Son of Man".
I'm a little confused by the words here. I'm not sure what a "holistic body of
consciousness" is. I have to make do with the belief that He came to redeem me, you, every individual.
It seems to me that you're interpreting the Pope's words to mean, when he says "everyone is redeemed" to infer that "everyone who is not
evil is redeemed."
I'm really sorry for creating that impression. Everyone is redeemed. I believe and accept that. We have all been set
free from sin.
Try this. America was set free from the tyranny of the British. That's not a guarantee that we won't choose to submit to some other tyranny
(representing going back into bondage to Satan). Here on ATS, many think we already have.
But, even so, the Pope wasn't addressing evil, he was addressing atheism. I think what he was saying was that, one can be redeemed by good
deeds, regardless of belief. Whether or not redeemed means a free pass to heaven or not, redemption is the gift of the sacrifice of Jesus, and
everyone is redeemed through good works.
I'm confused here, but that happens a lot. I thought we were redeemed by Jesus, and got to heaven
through love and faith. Good deeds are often a sign we have that faith, but consider your own verse:
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and
greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.
Good works and obedience to God's Law are one in the same, in the eyes of God.
This gets us into a little more complicated area. I'm
happy to bat it around with you if you'd like, but I'm kind of interested in straightening out this "redeemed" mess first, if you don't mind.