2 FBI Agents Involved in Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's Arrest "FALL" Out of Helicopter and Die

reply to post by JayinAR

Fast roping out of a helicopter is risky business. I have done it and it is scary as hell. Compounded by the fact that it is a quick insertion technique and it is easy to see how multiple people can die in a single exercise. Imagine four or more people dropping 90' on a rope in quick succession, one right after the other, without any harnesses. Normally you'll be carrying equipment on your back as well. You basically fall straight to the ground.

I still think this is an intriguing story though.

Add to that they were 12 nautical miles out to sea and in inclement weather - very risky.

Regarding the claim in the OP, I've not seen one shred of proof these two agents were in fact directly involved in Tsarnaev's arrest. They belonged to the the hostage-rescue team, which assisted in the hunt and arrest of Tsarnaev, but the names of the officers involved in that operation aren't available. The same unit has been in the news a number of times recently, such as the hostage rescue of the child from an Alabama bunker.

reply to post by Blackmarketeer


I agree. If this was a hit, I think the motive would be their involvement in something other than Boston.

reply to post by DarthFazer


The ATF not the FBI made the arrest of Tsarnaev so your thread is incorrect.

The counter-terrorism unit on the FBI is part of the HRT team and is a pretty good size. The officers know that they can get either killed or seriously hurt while doing their missions and their training.

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
reply to post by JayinAR

 

Fast roping out of a helicopter is risky business. I have done it and it is scary as hell. Compounded by the fact that it is a quick insertion technique and it is easy to see how multiple people can die in a single exercise. Imagine four or more people dropping 90' on a rope in quick succession, one right after the other, without any harnesses. Normally you'll be carrying equipment on your back as well. You basically fall straight to the ground.

Add to that they were 12 nautical miles out to sea and in inclement weather - very risky.

Regarding the claim in the OP, I've not seen one shred of proof these two agents were in fact directly involved in Tsarnaev's arrest. They belonged to the the hostage-rescue team, which assisted in the hunt and arrest of Tsarnaev, but the names of the officers involved in that operation aren't available. The same unit has been in the news a number of times recently, such as the hostage rescue of the child from an Alabama bunker.

The HRT if I recall, is more than ninety field personnel, plus auxiliaries and support. Absent direct evidence that these two were part of the marathon investigation, it's pretty unlikely they both were.

Is there any way we could see those involved with the arrest and deaths suicides etc. of there members after the attack and arrests?

reply to post by MRMIAGI


From what I've found HRT wasn't involved in the arrest. It was SWAT, ATF, and police K-9 units.

reply to post by Zaphod58


Whether or not they were involved in the actual moment of arrest, if Stephen Shaw was such an expert on hair and textile analysis he might well have been involved in other aspects of the investigation such as examination of the backpacks and of any material recovered from the bombs (such as the source of the female DNA), and perhaps even the material supposedly tying the Tsarnaevs to the 2011 Waltham murders.

Originally posted by boncho

Well actually, that's a funny sentiment. See, it is often the fringe CT crowd which insinuates hundreds sometimes thousands being complacent in a cover-up, false flag, conspiracy, etc.

Yet, most secrets have to be limited to a handful of people.

The above statement has been shown many times to be false. Best example was the Manhattan project, where hundreds if not thousands of people were in on the secret, yet not one leak.

The Manhattan project became the prototypical case on how to handle SCI (secret, compartmentalized information) and was the basis of handling such info afterwards.

Back on topic - please.............

reply to post by Brocade


Regardless, fast rope insertion has proven so dangerous that the Army has cut way down on performing them until they can find something safer for getting out of helicopters. If the Army, which has more experience with it than the HRT does, decides it's too dangerous, that doesn't suddenly make it safer for the HRT. It's one of the most dangerous insertion/extraction techniques out there.

reply to post by Zaphod58


I'm not sure how a different organisation considering fast rope insertion too dangerous to continue using relates to the possibility that Stephen Shaw's highly specialised skills, expertise and extensive experience might have been called upon in investigating evidence from the Boston bombing.

The HRT are being presented as a pretty elite team. I don't think anyone's disputing that it's dangerous, although if this NYTimes article is correct, the FBI's fatality rate is astonishingly low:

The episode, announced Sunday by the F.B.I., was the first time that an agent has died in the line of duty since December 2011. In the past 12 years, six others have been killed. The F.B.I. has about 14,000 agents.

One death, let alone two, is an unusual enough event to be worthy of comment and interest. Just because we don't know that Shaw and Lorek were definitely involved with the Boston bombing investigation doesn't mean they definitely weren't despite what some in this thread are trying to imply.

reply to post by Brocade


Because the Army uses fast roping a lot more than the HRT does. If it's unsafe for the people that do it day in and day out, then that should give you an idea of just how dangerous it is.

As for their special skills, all HRT members have special skills. Just because one is a forensic specialist doesn't mean that he doesn't also kick a door in. As small as the HRT is they have to double up as much as possible on skills. They don't have anyone that can only do one role, so they have to double and sometimes triple up on roles.

reply to post by Brocade


As I mentioned on the last page, I have done this exactly twice. It is not something I ever want to do again. While fatality statistics are low for fast roping, it is still VERY EASY for tragedy to happen doing this.

Also, two fatalities in one exercise could very easily happen. When we air assaulted we would have three or four guys on the rope at the same time. If someone were to fall above you, you are going down too. 90'. It is a recipe for disaster.

reply to post by Zaphod58


But the difficulty of rope insertion is irrelevant to the fact that Stephen Shaw might well have been involved in the Boston investigation. And if he was, and the HRT work in such fixed, tight-knit teams as has been suggested, then it's likely that so was Lorek.

The reports never said it was the HRT that made the actual arrest, just that they were involved in the activities that led to the arrest. And such an elite team would be likely to have a rather more sophisticated role than many of the others involved.

reply to post by Brocade


Then there you have your investigative lead. Investigate it.

Otherwise it stands that two dudes from the same unit died in a very risky training exercise.

I would even offer you another lead.

If the records are sealed, you should try and find the exact cause of death. I suspect these gentlemen both died of broken necks.
The reason fatalities are low is because even if someone falls, the likelihood of death isn't all that high. You can survive a feet first fall from 90' in the event you WERE to fall. Especially if you have made it half way down before your hands give out and let go. You will sustain a broken back and two badly broken legs.

However, if someone were to fall above you, you will both tumble to the ground.

Even a 6' fall results in death if you land on your head.

Originally posted by DarthFazer
reply to post by Zaphod58

 

Ok so 30-50 does not seem that high, I was expecting 200 feet at least. But 30-50, that just does not seem that staggering. If one falls or is sliding down a rope he should be in the vertical position correct? So his lower extremities should make contact first. And we know they did not drown. Now some broken bones I can believe but both killed under the same circumstance ? And they should be wearing head protection, was there head trauma involved? Well we can read the coroners report so we wont know. A 30-50 fall to the water killed two people. Just does not equate with me at least.

Nor with me. I'm ex-army, and have jumped fifty feet into a pool. These guys would have been taught, as a routine part of their training, how to hit the water if they slipped from the rope. Someone released the clutch on the winch, then stopped it after a considerable free fall. That's the only thing that'd have broken the grip of those two very strong men. But there's still the impact problem, with them knowing how to fall... And in stormy conditions, impact injuries don't happen. Try making a splash in boiling water!

reply to post by Watcher26


Then explain why so many people have died from fast rope accidents, both into water, and onto land. It happens a lot, as well as non-fatal injuries from it. All of them were taught how to fall, and yet, they still had a fatal accident after coming off the rope

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by Watcher26

 

Then explain why so many people have died from fast rope accidents, both into water, and onto land. It happens a lot, as well as non-fatal injuries from it. All of them were taught how to fall, and yet, they still had a fatal accident after coming off the rope

I've searched for info about this, but can only find one record of a previous death, and none of it happening to Navy Seals... Can you back up your statement about 'so many people...' ?