Hey folks across the pond (uk) lets have a talk

Originally posted by txinfidel
Ok I will make this thread short and sweet since I accidentally hit the enter button, but I have been noticing things on ATS like armed police oh my god and some muslim butchering a guy with a meat cleaver.

Anyhow I dont mean to make this a thread where we butt heads but instead seek solutions.

I read another thread about the bbc not reporting right, which in all honesty happens a lot here in the us but you guys have a tv tax so that the bbc can be the governments mouthpiece and run 24/7 without advertisements.

Ok before you post more assanine comments I am going to post and then refresh so stay tuned.

edit on 23-5-2013 by txinfidel because: (no reason given)

Ok no assanine comments so far so good.

Anyways like I said not trying to make this a us verse uk thread so mods act accordingly.

Anyhow, in the US all police are armed all the time and they are a crime deterrent, however some police here do not act within the law, most americans especially myself are aware of that. But having armed police is not a bad thing if anything it is a good thing but hey, you should be armed too.

But thats not the point really... I am a scotts irish and an American so our traditions may have alot in common and yet vary for instance, this is not a scotts irish thing but an american thing. American waiters and waitresses make 2.13 an hour. I happened to be at an english pub and watched a brit leave less than 10% tip. His friend corrected his mistake and it made me glad.

Anyhow, and no offense but I think Brittain is headed down the wrong path and sad to say that America is following the lead. The TV tax has been introduced recently in most of the gun control states.

As a brit? Do you feel it is really that bad for your police to be armed? Aside from corruption of course because that is everywhere. And do you feel as a brit or an American there is a middle road?

I dont personally but I think there are lessons that both sides can be learned from each other as long as we are being honest.

edit on 23-5-2013 by txinfidel because: (no reason given)

So are you asking as to whether there should be armed British Police shooting down anyone who has the audacity to leave a less than 10% tip? What about in the case of bad service, is it ok then?

Usually I leave 20% plus for good service but when I get lousy service I can leave as little as nothing!

US attitudes towards tipping are wrong to be honest, I tip out of politeness and thankfullness at good service, it should not be regulated. It is not the customers fault that the businesses do not pay their staff properly and encourage then to expect tips. They should include enough in their prices to pay the staff properly and there draws the ire because I think they already do that, it is just pure greed to pay as little as possible and expect the clients to tip and make up the difference.

in Asia where I live, they add service charges on top of bills for service which the staff sometimes get and sometimes do not! Again, I think this is wrong and prices should always be included for everything (staff wages, cost of product) however, i still tip.

Better that the Police should shoot the business owner methinks

Having unarmed Police in the UK is a good thing, otherwise it will just escalate and what the UK does not want is another crazy homocidal society with guns, like the one across the pond

reply to post by Happy1


Too many Americans have Action Movie - Chuck Norris delusions. I have young children, I live for them. Would you attack somebody with your bare hands - when they have machete's and meat cleavers?

reply to post by txinfidel


Mutual Security is a great gift that the U.S has made to Britain and Israel. Without you we know we are really tiny.

That is why I respectfully appreciate the U.S.

I don't want our police to be armed, but if things got too bad then that choice is removed.

The police are there for a very good reason. Like all institutions they have problems of loyalty and corruption. Nothing can change that because the institution's performance is only as good as the officers who work there in.

I am very influenced culturally by the U.S. Films, music, books, etc have played a part in that. I love U.S art more than British art in fact (right now at least).

Originally posted by txinfidelyou guys have a tv tax so that the bbc can be the governments mouthpiece and run 24/7 without advertisements.

That is bollocks. The BBC is not the government's mouthpiece; on the contrary, it is always the government's toughest critic, regardless of which party is in power.

Tony Blair (former British Prime Minister) ended up in a huge fight with the BBC over its coverage of the Iraq war and its criticism of his government.

Originally posted by NeverMind2013

Originally posted by Happy1
reply to post by Maxatoria

 

Didn't you guys in the UK just stand silently by as some supposedly immigrant black men machete someone to death? And the people stood by and did nothing to stop it?

What would you have done? There were Two Phyco's with knives there mate.

Better to be a live coward than a dead hero.

I would have shot them both with the pistol I am licensed to carry. Some advantages to being a citizen with Constitutionally guranteed rights.

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by NeverMind2013

Originally posted by Happy1
reply to post by Maxatoria

 

Didn't you guys in the UK just stand silently by as some supposedly immigrant black men machete someone to death? And the people stood by and did nothing to stop it?

What would you have done? There were Two Phyco's with knives there mate.

Better to be a live coward than a dead hero.

I would have shot them both with the pistol I am licensed to carry. Some advantages to being a citizen with Constitutionally guranteed rights.

Hey Navy.

Does being licensed to carry a gun also give you the authority to hurt or even kill someone? What if the situation was ambigious and you went in anyway and shot and killed the men you thought were the criminals but were not?

We do have an armed police force who are specially trained to respond and deal with these situations once and when they are known. The "lets go in all guns blazing" does not happen in this country and the general public are not expected to deal with these situations, quite the opposite, they are expected to keep safe and keep away and let the proper people in authority deal with it.

reply to post by txinfidel


Its the European way of policing, if you combine the populations of all the European countries, you get roughly the same as the US, but the level of gun crime is tiny compared to that of USA, so its better for us to have armed units rather than arm the whole police force

reply to post by Sankari


The BBC is fiercely independent and critical of governments, the licence fee pays for the programming, which has to be a certain percentage local news and educational programming.

I like the fact the BBC remains separate from the government, means the House of Commons is accountable

I don’t quite get the question is the OP asking if we brits think our police should all be armed?

reply to post by NavyDoc


They got what they wanted in PR and was just waiting for death via whatever method it presented itself (suicide via cop) so you'd of done them a favour and you can't get answers from a corpse

Still strange how theres a building full of trained troops and weaponry a stones throw down the road and no one asked them to perhaps shove a few armed squaddies out the door to at least contain the problem and provide reassurance.

Originally posted by la2
reply to post by txinfidel

 

Its the European way of policing, if you combine the populations of all the European countries, you get roughly the same as the US, but the level of gun crime is tiny compared to that of USA, so its better for us to have armed units rather than arm the whole police force

And once you have an armed population, then gun crime will only escalate when everyone feels that it is their right to interfere and having an armed police force only increases tensions and aggression.

Its kind of like when some people get behind the wheel of the car; they change and think they own the road because they have a licence to drive and that the law does not apply to them.

Originally posted by la2
reply to post by Sankari

 

The BBC is fiercely independent and critical of governments, the licence fee pays for the programming, which has to be a certain percentage local news and educational programming.

I like the fact the BBC remains separate from the government, means the House of Commons is accountable

I agree mate. I am a British citizen by the way.

Originally posted by Sankari

Originally posted by la2
reply to post by Sankari

 

The BBC is fiercely independent and critical of governments, the licence fee pays for the programming, which has to be a certain percentage local news and educational programming.

I like the fact the BBC remains separate from the government, means the House of Commons is accountable

I agree mate. I am a British citizen by the way.

Well said. Although it doesnt always get it right some of the time, most of the time it does. The BBC is far better than most channels and the lack of advertising make it even better. I hated it on a visit to Canada many years ago when I struggled to watch anything on TV. There were adverts on after the opening credits before the show had even started and then many times throughout without a pause or indication that a break was about the start. I am surprised there arent ad breaks within ad breaks.

And I believe the BBC's reporting is among the most respected over the world.

If the two men had been shot and killed, rather than questioned and prosecuted, does the fact that they died mean they got away with it? If there had been a crime and the person the police killed was actually innocent it makes it even worse. How does shooting them preserve or promote any justice?

There was a new angle to this crime. Most criminals who have just hacked someone to death would have run away. These men waited for the police to arrive and whilst they were waiting they were talking to the crowds who were there and encouraging them to film them, showing their bloody hands (literally willingly offering themselves red-handed) and their weapons.

Originally posted by YarlanZey

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by NeverMind2013

Originally posted by Happy1
reply to post by Maxatoria

 

Didn't you guys in the UK just stand silently by as some supposedly immigrant black men machete someone to death? And the people stood by and did nothing to stop it?

What would you have done? There were Two Phyco's with knives there mate.

Better to be a live coward than a dead hero.

I would have shot them both with the pistol I am licensed to carry. Some advantages to being a citizen with Constitutionally guranteed rights.

Hey Navy.

Does being licensed to carry a gun also give you the authority to hurt or even kill someone? What if the situation was ambigious and you went in anyway and shot and killed the men you thought were the criminals but were not?

We do have an armed police force who are specially trained to respond and deal with these situations once and when they are known. The "lets go in all guns blazing" does not happen in this country and the general public are not expected to deal with these situations, quite the opposite, they are expected to keep safe and keep away and let the proper people in authority deal with it.

In our state laws, it is perfectly legal to use deadly force in defense of yourself and others. I'd suggest that two men hacking at another with machetes is as unambiguous as it gets, unless you can think of a reasonable situation where two men would be hacking a third as he lies on the ground.

You have every right and reason not to get involved, but good people getting involved actually save lives and stop crime quite often. "Not getting involved" attitude has given us some pretty horrific incidents, such as the Kitty Genovese case where nobody bothered to help her during her attack or after.

Notice the brave women in this case who actually tried to intercede and one even put herself between the dead soldier and one knifeman. Those ladies are good examples of the fine British spirit. Had those brave ladies been armed, they might have been able to stop them earlier. Everyone else just passively watched a fellow Brit get murdered because they don't want to get involved.

Originally posted by YarlanZey

Originally posted by la2
reply to post by txinfidel

 

Its the European way of policing, if you combine the populations of all the European countries, you get roughly the same as the US, but the level of gun crime is tiny compared to that of USA, so its better for us to have armed units rather than arm the whole police force

And once you have an armed population, then gun crime will only escalate when everyone feels that it is their right to interfere and having an armed police force only increases tensions and aggression.

Its kind of like when some people get behind the wheel of the car; they change and think they own the road because they have a licence to drive and that the law does not apply to them.

Not true and very illogical.

Originally posted by Maxatoria
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

They got what they wanted in PR and was just waiting for death via whatever method it presented itself (suicide via cop) so you'd of done them a favour and you can't get answers from a corpse

Still strange how theres a building full of trained troops and weaponry a stones throw down the road and no one asked them to perhaps shove a few armed squaddies out the door to at least contain the problem and provide reassurance.

The question was, how could you stop two armed men with machetes. My answer was that I could very easily stop them. It may be what they wanted or not, but I could have stopped them.

reply to post by cody599


Actually, we have both "armed response" and "armed patrols" in the UK.....our Police force isn't as woefully under-armed as some of our friends from overseas think they are.

I don’t think there is a need to have a fully armed UK police force especially because we already have something like 6000 trained armed officers.

There are three forces that I know of that are all armed, the police service of Northern Ireland, Ministry of Defence police and the Civil Nuclear Constabulary.

For any other police force they rely on the highly trained Armed response officers to attend the scene where firearms or other weapons are present.

I noticed earlier in this thread a poster said that the police “shoot to kill” that is utter crap, UK police are trained to shoot for centre mass because this is less likely to cause collateral damage and will stop the perpetrator. The only exception to this that I know if is when Operation Kratos is in effect, that is to say when the police are faced with a suicide bomber they have authority to take head shots.

reply to post by Argyll


Yes and they shoot herds of cows for target practice.