When You Think About It In Layman's Terms

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posted on May, 21 2013 @ 12:53 PM
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Originally posted by Nevertheless
could you quote the most significant awful things from the New Testament?


How about, the whole myth....?

"Be nice to each other. No smiting, cursing, blaspheming, that sort of thing. No eyeing off your neighbours goods, or perving on his missus. Be tolerant and especially, forgiving. As they say ...to err is human, to forgive is divine. Now, just gotta nick off for a bit. The alter ego/your loving god has agreed that for the measly price of one crucifixion, you unworthy lot can be forgiven. If you bow and scrape that is. Nothing for you to worry about, just some long metal spikes driven through the hands and feet. Burning turtle doves or goats ain't gonna cut it this time.

By the way, without wishing to use emotional blackmail or cult brainwashing techniques............but it's all your fault!!! Even if you haven't been thought of yet, it's still your fault!!! Now rejoice. Spread the good word (but focus on the sugary bits). The more enterprising of you will have to find a way to spin the other part."

Pfft, first century Marshall Applewhite?




posted on May, 21 2013 @ 12:53 PM
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reply to post by qualm91
 


But if God doesn't have a place that he has designated to torture the "lost souls" that don't follow him for all of eternity...then what is Hell exactly?

Fasten your seatbelt... remember this is just my own interpretation of things as I see them. Surely just one opinion.

"Hell" as defined in the bible is "the unquenchable lake of fire", right? Where all the "bad people" are going, forever? There is only one place around here that fits that bill.

The sun. I know, hear me out.

Anything that goes into the sun is going to be there quite literally forever. The gravity is so strong once it catches something it is trapped. If a soul were to be put there it would not survive, even atoms are destroyed in the sun. And the sun (or unquenchable lake of fire, that burns forever), will retain all those atoms for billions of years. Not "suffering forever", just a final plunge and "zzt", like_ they_ never_ were.

Its just this idea I have been kicking around. I want to say its not like that, but can't think of a loving God actually keeping people in an eternal hell where they suffer forever. Thats not what a loving person would do, right?

There has to be a better alternative.

As far as explaining why the Church wants us to believe in and fear an "eternal suffering", to me that is just part of the control they practice. You better be good or else. Something else I have trouble with. God has no need to punish or threaten anyone...

we already do that to each other and ourselves.

God is Love...



posted on May, 21 2013 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by Cogito, Ergo Sum

Originally posted by Nevertheless
could you quote the most significant awful things from the New Testament?


How about, the whole myth....?

The thing was that the OP quoted a rather cruel world in terms of how certain people should be treated, and bunched it up with Christianity, which is not what that particular religion teaches.

The "instructions", if you will, on how to live your life is actually a pretty good set of rules.
Even if you were a complete idiot, it wouldn't be difficult to live a life without causing too much trouble to others.

The fear part is there so that people without enough moral have a reason to follow the rules, and especially keeping you from ignoring your moral when things get a bit tougher. For an uncivilized world, it's a good plan to change that. It has now however played out its role.
edit on 21-5-2013 by Nevertheless because: (no reason given)
edit on 21-5-2013 by Nevertheless because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 21 2013 @ 01:07 PM
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reply to post by qualm91
 




When You Think About It In Layman's Terms


The universe is vast... bordering on the human concept of infinite. What is out there?

Our grasp of what is and is not has only begin to scratch the surface of possibility. That which we so comfortably cling to today as fact, may well be material for giggles in a history book a century or so from now.

So... as nursery-bound (on planet Earth) human beings staring off into the infinite wonder, how do we dismiss anything at all?

My personal opinion is that... as a species, we're not nearly as smart as we like to think we are and until such time as we solve the conundrum of how to prove the nonexistence of anything, it's all still a guess either way.

Maybe that's why they call it... 'faith'.

Nice post... very well written
edit on 21-5-2013 by redoubt because: edit



posted on May, 21 2013 @ 01:17 PM
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Originally posted by Nevertheless

The thing was that the OP quoted a rather cruel world in terms of how certain people should be treated, and bunched it up with Christianity, which is not what that particular religion teaches.


Female clergy, contraception, gay rights, not to mention trying to get the "genesis myth" taught in science classrooms? It doesn't sound too NT inspired, or is it? Though, no doubt the average Christian is usually nice and hasn't let go of common sense.


The "instructions", if you will, on how to live your life is actually a pretty good set of rules.
Even if you were a complete idiot, it wouldn't be difficult to live a life without causing too much trouble to others.

I doubt Christianity has anything to do with. Christians can be nice despite their religion, rather than because of it. If they had never heard of this religion, they would still be nice.



posted on May, 21 2013 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by intrptr
God is Love...


+1.

Even if he doesn't really exist, that sentiment won't hurt.



posted on May, 21 2013 @ 01:31 PM
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reply to post by qualm91
 


Good thread OP. Unfortunately I don't believe any of your questions will be answered.

Most Christains seem to ignore logic and confuse their right to their opinion as a right to their facts.

To put it lightly, you (as in rhetorical you, not 'you' OP or anyone else) tell me that this book is Divine or whatever (more than a book.) You use said book to prove said books divinity. (Cherry-picked scripture)

Spider-Man is real because it says so in the Spider-Man comic-books (same logic, but will be disregarded by many)

"God's word"

You must feel incredibly honored/special to be able to interpret God's word. But I ask, why was it written, changed, and translated by men? I thought it was God's word, how is that possible if it was written by men? Unless the man writing it had a direct line of communication with God.

In today's world, we would consider someone like that mentally ill. God's word you say?

Prove it.

Lastly, your book is a book, period. Most Christains don't even read The Bible, they know nothing about it and ridicule anyone who isn't on the Jesus bandwagon. It can never be proven to be the work of some God, because that's false. I say prove it, and I'm not the only one.

And proof, for us, is not Biblical scripture (you can't use the Bible to prove the Bible) that's cherry-picked nor are personal and subjective experiences that proved to you there is a God.

Religious people can't face logical scrutiny. Instead, they ignore objective questions and deflect to ad hom attacks while falling back to their holier-than-thou attitude towards anyone not part of their religion.

S&F OP.



posted on May, 21 2013 @ 01:31 PM
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reply to post by intrptr
 


Interesting theory. I think that whole lake of fire imagery comes from a literal lake of fire.



Personally, I would LOVE to walk on the sun in my spiritual body. Talk about purification!

In many cultures, GOD is the SUN.



posted on May, 21 2013 @ 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by Cogito, Ergo Sum
Female clergy, contraception, gay rights, not to mention trying to get the "genesis myth" taught in science classrooms? It doesn't sound too NT inspired, or is it?

No, I don't think it is.
I live in a Christian country and there are Female clergy, contraception, gay rights, gay clergy, and never ever is the genesis myth taught in science classrooms.

Also, even if some of the above parts were implemented regardless of the bible being interpreted "right" or "wrong", and since we know the Bible isn't "real", the worst thing that can happen is that women won't be religious leaders (they can do better things with their lives), gay people will go to a non-existing hell for having sex.

As I said, the bible is now outdated and it is up to us to create better laws. If you fail at improving them in your country, it's a political issue.



Though, no doubt the average Christian is usually nice and hasn't let go of common sense.

I agree that Christians are usually quite sane. It's the odd opinion about "that is wrong!" that is baffling, however, they also know it's not their issue and they don't need to stone anybody. This is exactly what I mean by the Bible being good for "idiots", because if the book would be more medieval like some of the other... well, I'm not that sure if their common sense will beat "God says stone, not forgive!". Especially when in a group.




I doubt Christianity has anything to do with. Christians can be nice despite their religion, rather than because of it. If they had never heard of this religion, they would still be nice.

When having discussions with Christians, I've heard many times from the nicest of people the argument "If there was no God, then people could do whatever they wish!", so it is not my claim. They feel that to be some sort of safety for at least humanity, not necessarily themselves. But I do think it helps many to stay away of smaller temptations, in fact, to the point of not enjoying life to the fullest.
One person felt like it was lying to...well, tell a lie to a person we wanted to surprise with a gift. Imagine that.



posted on May, 21 2013 @ 02:02 PM
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reply to post by ShadellacZumbrum
 


Original Sin is the doctrine of an omnipresent omnipotent creator god who holds the child responsible for the sins of the father (or mother), down through the generations without end.

Merely human (meHum) legal systems have rightly rejected this notion for hundreds of years.



posted on May, 21 2013 @ 02:18 PM
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Originally posted by Psych3d3licPsych3
reply to post by qualm91
 


All are quotes from the old testament, Jesus said “Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill.” (Matthew 5:17) After he fulfilled the old testament the old laws don't apply. His death brought on a new way of living.

edit on 01/04/2013 by Psych3d3licPsych3 because: (no reason given)


I realize that he did say this, yes. And I do believe that Jesus was a real man that really existed. A man who brought wonderful morals and teachings. But why disregard everything that God has done in the Old Testament? I mean, maybe that is "old" and we should move on from it. But that doesn't mean that we should disregard it. God did what God did because he wanted to. And does what he did not seem sadistic to you?


Originally posted by ObservingYou
These threads are so tiresome.

The Bible was wrote by man - not what we call God.

Therefore most the Bible is BS.

Are you surprised you don't relate it it? NO.

So why repeat the obvious?

In regards to the other dumbass questions being asked too....God obviously isn't some man or some physical being, the term God relates to infinite creation, which has had no beginning and no end..We progress our own souls - not some fairy in the clouds.

The whole thing is simple - I don't understand the confusion.

My Irritability is not completely aimed at you OP - Just at pointless area's of conversation in general.

edit on 21-5-2013 by ObservingYou because: (no reason given)


Your irritability is well placed, trust me. My irritability with this subject matter is what prompted me to post this thread, believe it or not. I got so tired of every single one of my threads being turned into something about God that I finally decided to address the matter specifically in order to hopefully avoid the continuance of this. The whole thing is simple to me, too, my friend. I was only asking those who believe to answer my questions and post their own beliefs on THIS thread, not every single other one that I post. Not everything has to be justified or debunked by a belief in God and I am tired of hearing it as an explanation for everything. I just wanted to point these things out because of my own personal irritability.


Having read the whole bible, could you quote the most significant awful things from the New Testament?
edit on 21-5-2013 by Nevertheless because: (no reason given)


I honestly have to say that the MOST significant awful thing in the New Testament would be the crucifixion of Jesus. He was a wonderful man who endured terrible things for the salvation of man-kind. And that is to be respected.

reply to post by ShadellacZumbrum
 


That was simply a quote from George Carlin. Take it as you will. And I know that if there does happen to be a God, I probably will burn in Hell. But until the end, I believe this to be hypocrisy. Because I am a good person who simply does not believe in God. That is the only thing I do. I do not accept God. I am a good person in every other way, so if I burn in Hell, so be it.

reply to post by ShadellacZumbrum
 


Revelations terrifies me, and I honestly do believe it. I am scared for my soul, but I simply will not accept following a God that I find unworthy.

reply to post by windword
 


The book of Judah was also left out.

reply to post by Cogito, Ergo Sum
 


I just wanted to let you know that I have "Cogito ergo sum" tattooed on my stomach. And great post! Thanks for the contribution.

reply to post by intrptr
 


Very interesting theory, I've never thought of it in that way. Possibility, for sure.

reply to post by Nevertheless
 


I have to agree that they are a good set of rules, honestly. They are wonderful moral codes to live by. But if you don't live by every single last one of them, would you really be damned to Hell for all of eternity?

reply to post by redoubt
 


THANK YOU! I couldn't have said it better myself. This is exactly it, none of us KNOW for certain. And I am dumbfounded that some people have the audacity to tell the rest of us that we will go to Hell if we don't follow their rules.



posted on May, 21 2013 @ 02:22 PM
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reply to post by RomeByFire
 


I hate to say it, because I really do hate to "hate" on people for their beliefs, but you are completely right. Anything that discounts or contradicts their beliefs, they throw away and get so utterly defensive. I don't understand it. I am simply curious. It is truly not my intention to offend, I just want to know why and how people can believe in this type of thing.

reply to post by Nevertheless
 


My only problem is, it says that God's word is eternal. His laws are his laws, no matter what. They don't get "outdated" they stand no matter what.



posted on May, 21 2013 @ 02:52 PM
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Hi !

Asking questions will never ever be a mistake. There are only those that don't want to answer and those that do.

Hagar got send back, because she had to fulfill her own destiny. She will give birth to Abraham's son, after he and his wife didn't seem to be able to have kids.
A little pain doesn't mean much. It's a human thing.

If someone will give people a choice to take young virgins, instead of those he promised a save place.
Messengers from God even, what would make them holy in his eyes. His daughters are not. He chose to honor God, because he probably meant more to him. If that was from fear of God wrath... I dunno.

I'm just giving my thoughts.

I really think you should never translate a text or sentence, and change it to what you read in the original text.
People could read it with no clue about raping anyone and then you kinda post it in their heads too.

You can't know what others think, and filling thoughts in can get messy.

If you want to getter better understanding of Christianity, learn about Judaism too, as it came from.
The Old testament we know from the bible is the same book as the book the Jews also use. Only they call it different.


PS

Our idea of hell, will if you look a bit further then what you are used to looking for answers.
In Judaism where Jesus was part of, there is no hell. So hell has been a tool, to scare people into following whatever you want them to follow.

When fear is a motivation for anything ever that you planned to do. Step back and think it over.
If fear is what keeps you in churge afraid to end up in hell... It isn't much of a choice, when you are faced with the consequence of making the wrong one.

edit on 5/21/2013 by Sinter Klaas because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 21 2013 @ 03:00 PM
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reply to post by qualm91
 


I realize you are asking Christians about this, but I think I can give a good answer since I was taught in a Roman Catholic school, were religion class is mandatory (you are not forced to take sacraments however). Family did not seem religious (never mentioned it), however they are good people who you could say follow Christian principals. Step-dad was highly anti religious and many colourful words were spoken about religion and how it was all bull**** and responsible for all the wars in history.

First, I'm going to divide all religious people into two groups:

1. The people who adhere strictly to a set doctrine. (ex. born again Christians, Muslims, and many more)

2. The people who pick and choose what feels right to them from their respective religion. (ex. someone who strives to treat others as they would like to be treated, but would not beat a slave because the bible said it was ok, because that goes against there morals. The bible obviously contradicts itself many times, I'm sure the Quran does too)

Your question is most likely directed at group #1, because group #2 would simply disregard the quotes you have pulled from the bible, because unless they were cruel or savages there morals would prevent them from doing such a thing.

Also many in group #1 probably couldn't bring themselves to stone a gay if that's what there doctrine called for, because it would be against there conscience. (ex. many born again Christians I have met, although following an irrational illogical doctrine, were still good people and had excellent morals)


There are several reasons I think they follow their doctrine even if it contradicts itself or is illogical.

1. They are indoctrinated from youth. Most children's minds are very easy to manipulate and mold.

2. Their minds seem to immediately shut out, ignore, or deny anything which opposes their pet doctrine. They also will twist arguments around to suit them and bend facts.

You will understand this better, if A) You have ever been on the losing side of an argument and knew you were wrong but continued to defend your position.

Or B) Had a very strong preconceived notion challenged, and kind of subconsciously knew you were wrong but refused to change your notion.

Religion is far from the only field this type of irrationality exists (for example many scientific discoveries at first ridiculed are later accepted as fact). Religion does stand out though due to the absurdness of some doctrines.



Lastly most humans have not evolved to the point were they are proficient in logic. I know this because people will be presented with an axiom like 1+1=2 (An Axiom is a premise so evident as to be accepted as true without controversy.) and say it is false.



posted on May, 21 2013 @ 03:22 PM
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reply to post by qualm91
 


So you say you are looking for God? The saying/quote whatever it is "Look under that stone, there I am, look at that bug, there I am" I hope you recognize.

This is based on the idea that God is the causeless cause of all that is, and therefore is omnipresent, since there is nothing outside of "it", Omnipotent since all power proceeds from "it", and Omniscient since all knowledge would proceed from it. God also eternal, since nothing can have caused it to be. Reality. Real. If you believe in one God then this is were you will end up. The chain of cause and effect must end some were, with a causeless cause which always was and always will be.

How can you rebel against God, when anything you think and do was created by "God".


You will notice with religion that the God basically embodies the highest conception of the peoples who created it.

Think that threw and apply it to different religions and Gods, like Jehovah and Allah. Then you will understand why there God enslaves people, and shares human traits like jealousy and wanting to be worshipped etc.



posted on May, 21 2013 @ 03:29 PM
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Originally posted by Sinter Klaas

Our idea of hell, will if you look a bit further then what you are used to looking for answers.
In Judaism where Jesus was part of, there is no hell. So hell has been a tool, to scare people into following whatever you want them to follow.

When fear is a motivation for anything ever that you planned to do. Step back and think it over.
If fear is what keeps you in churge afraid to end up in hell... It isn't much of a choice, when you are faced with the consequence of making the wrong one.

edit on 5/21/2013 by Sinter Klaas because: (no reason given)


Religion is a necessary part of human evolution, the fear of hell and bribe of heaven is responsible for a much more moral civilization than there otherwise may have been.


All religions have their esoteric side, but this usually is diluted as time passes.

Islam was probably totally different during the Islamic golden age, than the Sunni and Shiite sects.

Just like Christians beliefs were much different during the middle ages than they are know.

This change also reflects the change in the people following the religion.



posted on May, 21 2013 @ 04:24 PM
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Why do you think that parables are only limited to the NT?



posted on May, 21 2013 @ 04:55 PM
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reply to post by qualm91
 



I realize that he did say this, yes. And I do believe that Jesus was a real man that really existed. A man who brought wonderful morals and teachings. But why disregard everything that God has done in the Old Testament? I mean, maybe that is "old" and we should move on from it. But that doesn't mean that we should disregard it. God did what God did because he wanted to. And does what he did not seem sadistic to you?


He ushered in the new creation. If you could even start to fathom this reality....the redemption from Adamkind in to the new creation, IN Christ. For 2,000 years your Creator has been raising sons and daughters in His new human creation, a new creature through the faith of His Son Jesus Christ and through the power of God to lift themselves out of the darkness. And as that faith is rejected, what we see rising is man in all his iniquity - void of any restraint from above. The restraint came through His saints in shich He dwelled. Those pyramids and snakes are coming right back as the descendants of Christian forefathers reject that saving faith. This goes WAY beyond Jesus giving "wonderfuls morals and teachings".... He is THE LIFE. Our Lord and Saviour. Through Him, God has been reconciling man to Himself. This is the gospel, this is His promise throughout the entire Old testament. The redemption of adamkind. The redemption of a fallen humanity. Do you know what I do when I have not received understanding of a passage? I pray. Parables require revelation and study.



posted on May, 21 2013 @ 04:59 PM
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Originally posted by qualm91
Thanks for asking these questions, it will help us both learn more about eachother. I am a Christian and these sort of questions are good for eachother. I hope if you dont mind I wont be posting any scripture for replying to these, just expressing my opinion and understanding of it. : )


"And he said 'Hagar, Sarai’s slave girl, where have you come from and where are you going?' She answered, 'I’m running away from Sarai, my mistress.' The angel of the Lord said to her, 'Go back to your mistress and submit to ill treatment at her hands.' " -Genesis 16:8 So, not only is God condoning slavery, but he is saying that it is perfectly fine to beat your slaves. But we're all equal in his eyes? I think not.

God, though harsh sounding in this verse, actually did fulfill His promise to Abraham about multiplying his offspring, even if it was not God's intention for the offpsring to be through Hagar [which is why today there is great strife between arabs and jews.] I wouldnt say this shows God as approving of harsh slavery, but moreso approving of Sarais treatment over what the other option would have been; "sleep with the queens man, you get beheaded" no Abraham wasnt a king or any of that, but I would assume in those days especially that if you couldnt conceive and were promised offspring by God, that your man impregnated your servant, youd probably want to kill her. So maybe a little bit of harshness and abusing is bad yes, but not as bad as murdering. It is to say God doesnt approve of this, but its just a temporary thing, and Gods way of encouraging her as though saying "yes it will be tough, but I will take care of you" which God did.


“ 'Look, I have two daughters, virgins both of them. Let me bring them out to you and you could do what you like with them. But do nothing to these men because they have come under the shelter of my roof.' ” -Genesis 19:8 Go ahead and rape my daughters, Lot says, but please don't hurt these men. And God condones this? Is this the loving God that you all worship?

God did not say "offer up your daughters" Lot did this, just as there was some verse in the OT about a man who promised to God when he returned he would sacrifice so and so to God, and ended up being his daughter. I am sure you know this as you read the Bible before, but one could say "why would God condone this?" but it wasn't God, it was the man who said this. The same is for this passage. Truth is, it also shows the seriousness Lot had towards God, giving up even his family for God, again God did not tell Lot to do this.. At least not that I remember : s



"Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, 'Go up, you bald head! Go up, you bald head!' So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the Lord. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths." -Kings 2:23 The Lord has no problem killing children for calling someone bald, obviously. Doesn't that seem a bit harsh? Would YOU be okay with your children being murdered for calling someone bald?

Its hard to not picture these 'children' as just being playful innocent children, surely they are much more than that, but even if they are horrible as can be, does it justify death? I would say not, but again we dont know the circumstances. What if these kids had been following him from the city [as it says] but for miles and miles, and would have caused him to never fulfill his mission? it doesnt mean that God is all about killing everybody till He gets His way, and also it was not God who pronounced the curse, it was the guy [I forget who it was lol] But your right, it does seem a bit harsh, but for all we know that could have been a focal point where God ultimately had to decide. Another thing one could look at is that God had given this character His power to curse like that, and though God would not have chosed to do this, the guy did choose it, one could correlate this to church leaders having power in their words for good and bad?

Good set of passages you brought up, it definitely is a challenge and helps me see it from the other perspective looking in. I hope to answer further questions for you. And also I do agree that there are things that cannot be answered that do seem to make God out to be 'evil' but I believe with meditation and study, they will prove that God really is not evil. : )
edit on 5/21/13 by honested3 because: grammar - dont laugh



posted on May, 21 2013 @ 05:02 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by intrptr
 


Interesting theory. I think that whole lake of fire imagery comes from a literal lake of fire.


If I didn't know that was a lava lake I might think it was a picture of a sun. Anymore than people who wrote the bible thousands of years ago would be able to tell this was not a lava lake...



Looks like a lake of fire now? Before space telescopes man had no idea what the sun looked like up close. Of course now its common knowledge... now.


Personally, I would LOVE to walk on the sun in my spiritual body. Talk about purification!

In many cultures, GOD is the SUN.

You would not survive. Even your atoms would break up. Today, thinking God is the Sun is ignorant.

Rename this one "The unquenchable lake of fire":


A lava lake is not "forever". The sun well, more nearly...





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