May 20, 2013 | Full List of 171 Documented Israeli Cease Fire Violations – Updated

reply to post by FlyersFan


Same here
www.guardian.co.uk...

www.globalresearch.ca...

electronicintifada.net...

And there's many more

Originally posted by GakunGak
2: Defies any international requirements, like, opening it's nuclear arsenal for inspection while forcing others to do the same

What are you babbling about now? What makes you think Israel has to open its nuclear arsenal for inspection?

But people actually favor more Israel

That is because they see the terrorists constantly attacking Israel, and even vowing to destroy it. Have you bothered to read the Hamas charter where they vow to destroy Israel? Also why do you ignore the Hezbollah leaders vow to destroy Israel? That is the reason people support Israel.

Why do you favour the terrorists attacking Israel?

Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by GakunGak

 

I'm sure that if the Palestinians would actually abide by a cease fire and return to the table, their lot in life would improve. After all, the Dome of the Rock has not been torn down. And there are plenty of mosques in Israel as well.

Well put and people seem to forget a major thing here. I made a little map up last year to show the point though. It fits well for this debate, I'm thinking.



Israel is comprised of a good and measurable % of Arab citizens. Not second class wanna be migrants ...but full Israeli Citizens. Muslims too. Amazing just how many people don't seem to know that? The media would make the place sound like a pure land of Jewish affiliation and room for nothing else.

Originally posted by GakunGak
But people actually favor more Israel despite being more bloodthirsty and actually committing atrocities.

But you actually favor more the Palestinians despite them being more bloodthirsty and actually committing atrocities. See? I could say the same. Lists of Palestinian 'atrocities' have been posted on this thread. The facts are there. They aren't innocent.

That, I don't get it...

You don't get it because you won't look at the facts that have been presented to you. Until you accept that no one in the Middle East has clean hands .. there is nothing that anyone can do to help you understand.

Originally posted by GakunGak
Same here ...

OMG .. you said 'same here'. So do you admit that the Palestinians are doing exactly what you are accusing Israel of doing? Do you admit that they use human shields, that they indiscriminately attack Israeli civilians via wave after wave of rocket attack and suicide bombers ... do you admit it?

Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by GakunGak

 

One link vs. many links. Yep got it.

Not much bias there.

Let's put it this way.

If someone were throwing rocks at me and I could mace or taze them to get them to stop, I would.

If they were shooting to "scare" me, I would shoot back to kill them.

I'm sure that if the Palestinians would actually abide by a cease fire and return to the table, their lot in life would improve. After all, the Dome of the Rock has not been torn down. And there are plenty of mosques in Israel as well.

And if the cowardly Hamas and Hezbollah would stop hiding behind women and children, the civilian casualty count would dimish greatly as well.

Links are not the problem, I can provide if you require
How about we put it this way?
I live in my home minding my own business and a bunch of outsiders raise a tent across the street.
After a few days, from one tent they raise 20. Months later they build a home. Year after that they put a tent in my yard. Year after that they set a check point at my door harassing me every day, with me unable to defend against their rifles and bombs with only few household items. Small me against many them, wanting me to move out from now their territory. Who's a terrorist here, me defending my home or them, using terrorist tricks to make me leave?
How can you make peace with such people? You cant...

reply to post by GakunGak

That pretty much describes the Palestinian squatters. Israel is a soverign nation. The Palestinians are people who misbehaved in Muslim countries and were kicked out and told to go bug the Jews. You described the influx of 'Palestinians' perfectly. Heck .. even Arafat was an Egyptian. I don't know if there are many REAL 'palestinians' out there ...

Originally posted by hellobruce

Originally posted by GakunGak
2: Defies any international requirements, like, opening it's nuclear arsenal for inspection while forcing others to do the same

What are you babbling about now? What makes you think Israel has to open its nuclear arsenal for inspection?

But people actually favor more Israel

That is because they see the terrorists constantly attacking Israel, and even vowing to destroy it. Have you bothered to read the Hamas charter where they vow to destroy Israel? Also why do you ignore the Hezbollah leaders vow to destroy Israel? That is the reason people support Israel.

Why do you favour the terrorists attacking Israel?

1: I, for one, am not interested cooking in a nuclear fire because of some twitchy Doomsday lunatics just waiting for a chance to blow half the planet en.wikipedia.org...:_Israel%27s_Nuclear_Arsenal_and_American_Foreign_Policy
2: If Israel was willing to stop harassment, maybe there wouldn't be any vows....
Besides, www.globalresearch.ca...

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by GakunGak

The same can be said for the Israelis. They live under a constant threat of aggression.

If you came here and set up a camp in my lawn and called it yours, you'd better be sure you'd be living under a constant threat of aggression...

Originally posted by GakunGak
Who's a terrorist here, me defending my home or them, using terrorist tricks to make me leave?
How can you make peace with such people? You cant...

Using your own analogy makes this rather easy.

Israel is surrounded by governments (and People) who have vowed to destroy them.

And you're mad that they defend themselves?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by GakunGak

 

That pretty much describes the Palestinian squatters. Israel is a soverign nation. The Palestinians are people who misbehaved in Muslim countries and were kicked out and told to go bug the Jews. You described the influx of 'Palestinians' perfectly. Heck .. even Arafat was an Egyptian. I don't know if there are many REAL 'palestinians' out there ...

www.amnestyusa.org...
Israel basically occupied them... Not to mention illegal settlements en.wikipedia.org...
Which basically is what is happening how I "described" with the house scenario....

Originally posted by TDawgRex

Originally posted by GakunGak
Who's a terrorist here, me defending my home or them, using terrorist tricks to make me leave?
How can you make peace with such people? You cant...

Using your own analogy makes this rather easy.

Israel is surrounded by governments (and People) who have vowed to destroy them.

And you're mad that they defend themselves?

If there was a credible threat, israel doing nothing provocative against anyone and everyone attacking them, then I would support Israel.
What I don't support, is Israel targeting civillians and setting a concentration camp called Gaza and everything they do to it.

EDIT: If I don't reply, I am either not online or israel JDAM-ed me, no worries

reply to post by GakunGak


Your house comparison would make sense only if Jews just arrived in modern Israel following World War II and decided they were going to just take what they wanted and screw everyone else.

It's totally ignoring the fact (as many do) that Israel WAS GOING to be a State anyway. Whatever the outcome, we'd have Israel as a nation today, no matter what. It went real badly for two reasons. One, Israel was impatient and wouldn't tolerate some of the details being hammered out by the UN, at the start. So, they unilaterally declared statehood...just ahead of having it done by international approval and authority anyway.

The second, of course, is shown by what happened next. It didn't matter that Israel just jumped ahead of a process already well involved for making both a Palestine and Israel in the land available.....all nations in the area declared war on Israel immediately and to their total obliteration.

Well.... That kinda set the stage for all which has followed and more wars since. Still.....Israel didn't steal a damn thing. They were there, in evidence of the Jews, all along. Jews and Palestinians actually fought TOGETHER in resisting the British before throwing them out ...which led to where things were about to go for UN declared nations across both Israel and Palestine.

History is NEVER as black and white or as simple as people would like to make it sound. There are no White/Black hats in Israel and the Middle East. There are endless gray hats with some carrying more dirt than others...but none are pure white or black.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


And again, I disagree on that one too. Why, because, first to get some facts straight.
First of, the jews were never there from the begining, in fact, between 3000 and 1100 B.C., Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and much of Syria and Jordan...Those who remained in the Jerusalem hills after the Romans expelled the Jews [in the second century A.D.] were a potpourri: farmers and vineyard growers, pagans and converts to Christianity, descendants of the Arabs, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks and old Canaanite tribes.

As for the Israel being a state, Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately thereafter its boundaries and its characteristics — including its name in Arabic, Filastin — became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance...In 1516, Palestine became a province of the Ottoman Empire, but this made it no less fertile, no less Arab or Islamic...Sixty percent of the population was in agriculture; the balance was divided between townspeople and a relatively small nomadic group. All these people believed themselves to belong in a land called Palestine, despite their feelings that they were also members of a large Arab nation...Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314

What happened when the israel become a state?
In 1948, at the moment that Israel declared itself a state, it legally owned a little more than 6 percent of the land of Palestine...After 1940, when the mandatory authority restricted Jewish land ownership to specific zones inside Palestine, there continued to be illegal buying (and selling) within the 65 percent of the total area restricted to Arabs.

Thus when the partition plan was announced in 1947 it included land held illegally by Jews, which was incorporated as a fait accompli inside the borders of the Jewish state. And after Israel announced its statehood, an impressive series of laws legally assimilated huge tracts of Arab land (whose proprietors had become refugees, and were pronounced ‘absentee landlords’ in order to expropriate their lands and prevent their return under any circumstances).
After that, the ethnic cleansing of the Arab population of Palestine began...
I can go on and on and on...... but you get the picture...

reply to post by GakunGak


Oh I get the picture... I was actually interested in engaging at this level..and still may, since you just opened the door to 5,000 years of history to debate. I may very well take you up on that, as your take and the record of history I'm aware of are not quite the same over the thousands of years we're talking about.

It's that last bit that stops me...and comments like that always do. "Ethnic Cleansing". That;'s so hatefully inaccurate as to vibrate with it. Let me explain something in just as harsh a terms as that one suggests for Israel.

Israel has a military, strictly conventional, that has been challenged on the field of battle by multiple neighboring nation-states (important to note by their lines of supply being right there, for all sides) and they've won. Every time. Without question. To my knowledge, it makes Israel unique. Not just unusual, but actually unique for having taken on 3 or more full national armies, at the same time, in full general war ...and won. Multi-Front wars are usually the doom of a leader....ask Hitler about that one and Russia for tactical genius. lol..

^^^^ That is to point something out and it's something you cannot see, if you're using "Ethnic Cleansing" as anything more than a slur. Israel could, inside a weekend, ERASE the Palestinian People from the face of the Earth where they reside within the Occupied Territory of the West Bank and the semi-autonomous region of Gaza. The West bank? May not even take a full weekend... After all, the Jews are already spread in a tactical dream for such a thing.



^^ That map shows the distribution of Jews and Settlements across the West Bank and, incidentally, forms my biggest problem with Israel in general. However, for this chat, what it shows is how precarious a position the Palestinians would be in...IF Israel was HALF as bloodthirsty as people suggest they are.

If Israel was truly about obliterating the Palestinians with the vigor and determination the Palestinians return that sentiment? Nothing on Earth stops them from doing it, to a person and before anyone in the world could move to stop them. Any reason someone comes up with for why they don't? Comes back to the same thing in the end...They don't INTEND that, WANT that or actually are "evil" as presented. Basically, if they'd stop adding to West Bank occupation? I'd say they most want left alone for their little postage stamp of a nation, surrounded by Arab giants.

reply to post by GakunGak


Wouldn't be easier if you just started a thread that states I hate Israelis and Jews? There are much more deadlier conflicts in the world right now that deserve some attention due to the brutality from there aggressors.

Originally posted by thesaneone
reply to post by GakunGak

 

Wouldn't be easier if you just started a thread that states I hate Israelis and Jews? There are much more deadlier conflicts in the world right now that deserve some attention due to the brutality from there aggressors.

Not hating, just making sure people are informed at what is going on on that side of the world.
For example:
19 May 2013 13-year old Palestinian boy shot at by settlers, tortured by soldiers, denied medical attention
Or is it that Israel is so sacred word no one dare to bring the truth out? It is not the truth then, covering it in darkness, but a fabricated lie....

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


And again, I contribute the other side, starting from cleansing:

Following the outbreak of 1936, no mainstream (Zionist) leader was able to conceive of future coexistence without a clear physical separation between the two peoples — achievable only by transfer and expulsion. Publicly they all continued to speak of coexistence and to attribute the violence to a small minority of zealots and agitators. But this was merely a public pose..Ben Gurion summed up: ‘With compulsory transfer we (would) have a vast area (for settlement)...I support compulsory transfer. I don’t see anything immoral in it,’” Israel historian, Benny Morris, “Righteous Victims.”


“Ben-Gurion clearly wanted as few Arabs as possible to remain in the Jewish state. He hoped to see them flee. He said as much to his colleagues and aides in meetings in August, September and October [1948]. But no [general] expulsion policy was ever enunciated and Ben-Gurion always refrained from issuing clear or written expulsion orders; he preferred that his generals ‘understand’ what he wanted done. He wished to avoid going down in history as the ‘great expeller’ and he did not want the Israeli government to be implicated in a morally questionable policy...But while there was no ‘expulsion policy’, the July and October [1948] offensives were characterized by far more expulsions and, indeed, brutality towards Arab civilians than the first half of the war.” Benny Morris, “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949”
Didn’t the Palestinians leave their homes voluntarily during the 1948 war?

“Israeli propaganda has largely relinquished the claim that the Palestinian exodus of 1948 was ‘self-inspired’. Official circles implicitly concede that the Arab population fled as a result of Israeli action — whether directly, as in the case of Lydda and Ramleh, or indirectly, due to the panic that and similar actions (the Deir Yassin massacre) inspired in Arab population centers throughout Palestine. However, even though the historical record has been grudgingly set straight, the Israeli establishment still refused to accept moral or political responsibility for the refugee problem it — or its predecessors — actively created.” Peretz Kidron, quoted in “Blaming the Victims,” ed. Said and Hitchens.


“The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put.” Erskine Childers, British researcher, quoted in Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”


“That Ben-Gurion’s ultimate aim was to evacuate as much of the Arab population as possible from the Jewish state can hardly be doubted, if only from the variety of means he employed to achieve his purpose...most decisively, the destruction of whole villages and the eviction of their inhabitants...even [if] they had not participated in the war and had stayed in Israel hoping to live in peace and equality, as promised in the Declaration of Independence.” Israeli author, Simha Flapan, “The Birth of Israel.”
The deliberate destruction of Arab villages to prevent return of Palestinians

“During May [1948] ideas about how to consolidate and give permanence to the Palestinian exile began to crystallize, and the destruction of villages was immediately perceived as a primary means of achieving this aim...[Even earlier,] On 10 April, Haganah units took Abu Shusha... The village was destroyed that night... Khulda was leveled by Jewish bulldozers on 20 April... Abu Zureiq was completely demolished... Al Mansi and An Naghnaghiya, to the southeast, were also leveled. . .By mid-1949, the majority of [the 350 depopulated Arab villages] were either completely or partly in ruins and uninhabitable.” Benny Morris, “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949.

reply to post by GakunGak


There are much worst conflicts going on right now that deserve attention but you chose to point out Israel why?

reply to post by thesaneone


So that people do not forget, and not be distracted as to what is going on.

Or is it taboo to point out the truth and to embrace ignorance?