Where Are We Now? Post Feminism and the Modern World

Originally posted by Bisman
well this may only apply toi people i have met in my life. but i have noticed a complete lack of skills from females.
i am 29. all my male friends can cook/bake, clean (yes it shouldnt even be considered a skill but apparently it is), garden, and sew repairs or hem clothing.
while every female my age'ish lacks all knowledge of such things.

not to say men are picking up "woman jobs" or anything. but isnt this about equality? both genders should be able to do all of these things in at least the basic levels. yet woman my age dont seem to be skilled in anything.

"guy" skills like car maintenance is still a guy thing i guess. and anything that slightly requires a knowledgeable computer user, would have to be male as well. and i wasnt even aware computers were a boy thing. but i guess time has shown it is...

my point is. if i wasnt such a pig and want hetero sex; would i even WANT a household in the future with a girl? its like shes going to be my burden 9/10 of females i may meet.

excuse the grammar please. i am stuck in rush hour and on my phone here. (yes and i can drive and txt without hitting people) (/joke)

I'm curious about where you are from, if you don't mind me asking?
I don't see that in my own environment (my own husband can't cook a thing, doesn't touch housework, and even though we raised three kids, never gave a bottle or changed a diaper). But I have heard this same sort of comment from a family member in the US.
I'm trying to piece together the current trends there, and I was surprised to witness a surprising amount of feminine domination (in a way I found tyrannical) in my own family members there. I was surprised to find that this was even more often the case in family units where the wife was not working outside the home at all.

For me the answer is simple; there are legitimate gender differences. Some of these differences have been historically exploited which has caused much undue harm and grievous injustice (mainly to women).

As a result, our society seems to think that denying these differences altogether is the answer. It isn't. These differences are not of inherent worth or value but of function.

That is not to say of course that there will not be exceptions, that some women will not excel in ways that men typically do and that some men will not excel in ways that women typically do. It is only to say that actual differences do exist, that either gender present with intrinsic strengths and weaknesses and that the most unnatural response is to deny these differences altogether.

Just one girl's two pence.

Regards,

FTE

Originally posted by Bisman
well this may only apply toi people i have met in my life. but i have noticed a complete lack of skills from females.
i am 29. all my male friends can cook/bake, clean (yes it shouldnt even be considered a skill but apparently it is), garden, and sew repairs or hem clothing.
while every female my age'ish lacks all knowledge of such things.

not to say men are picking up "woman jobs" or anything. but isnt this about equality? both genders should be able to do all of these things in at least the basic levels. yet woman my age dont seem to be skilled in anything.

"guy" skills like car maintenance is still a guy thing i guess. and anything that slightly requires a knowledgeable computer user, would have to be male as well. and i wasnt even aware computers were a boy thing. but i guess time has shown it is...

my point is. if i wasnt such a pig and want hetero sex; would i even WANT a household in the future with a girl? its like shes going to be my burden 9/10 of females i may meet.

excuse the grammar please. i am stuck in rush hour and on my phone here. (yes and i can drive and txt without hitting people) (/joke)

Don't wreck!

Maybe it has to do with the age of the girls you are seeing display this behavior. Maybe its a generational thing (I'm 38 and can't really address this with regards to your generation).

But I see people in general lacking basic skills. My ex once called me, at midnight, to change his flat tire. In the pouring rain. He didn't know how to do it.

Is changing a tire a "manly" chore? Typically its been men who change the tire, but my father made sure I could change my tires before he'd let me drive. Seriously, I had to take all four tires off and put them back on before he'd give me the keys.

Interesting points you've made. Thanks for the input, and star for your opinion.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
The first thing that comes to mind when I hear, "feminism" is "butch". I dont really think there is that much inequality. But gender roles are real. The more women try to do man stuff, the more masculine they are. And im not cool with that. I mean you dont see many women in the ufc, but if you do, shes probably a feminist. I think its sick though. Feminists all seem to lack one very important thing. Femininity.

This is interesting. So you believe feminism isn't just about women being treated equally, but about subjugating men?

What do you consider "man stuff" to be?

Thanks for your input, star for the opinion.

Originally posted by Bisman
i think the fall of marriage success was due to gender roles disappearing, or the over-equality.
not that any specific jobs/errands/responsibilities need to be done by a specific gender. but that the couple shouldnt be sharing it all. its like you need to create the dependance for each other in one way or another.

because love is not all you need... marriage needs to serve a purpose. and if the american dream has died, you need to to still find that purpose.

What do you see as over-equality?

With regards to gender roles disappearing, I assume you mean that women stay at home with the children while the man earns the wage. Im not sure that's feasible for a lot of families....I know it takes both my husband and my own income to make ends meet. Although I honestly would prefer to stay at home and raise my family, its truly not an option.

I always thought feminism was about empowering women and helping women to earn "full status" with regards to the law and the workforce. I believe this has, for the most part, been achieved. We have the right to vote, own property in our own name, pursue any career, etc.

Thank you for your input! Star for your opinion.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Wow, BigFurry....I think you nailed my own personal beliefs.

reply to post by boncho


I am assuming, from what I know of you, that this post is in jest. Otherwise.....epic fail.

reply to post by calstorm


Another brilliant response. I agree completely.

Calstorm, the more I get to know you, the more impressed I am.

I kind of answered in the above paragraph- I like to have a bit of gender roles, in order to protect and acknowledge differences in the sexes, but ideally that would be balanced with a cultural acknowledgement of us each having a feminine and masculine side to us, that we can choose to express and manifest at will (so that a man can choose to play a feminine role, and vice versa, if they desire). But in the other hand, what I like about this world is the diversity- that there are all kinds of cultures and societies to choose from, that an individual can go to, live in, and experience. So I have no wish that ALL human societies were as I personally prefer. edit on 21-5-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)

reply to post by Bluesma


This is the best response so far, at least with how I feel about gender roles.

I want to be feminine. I want my husband to be masculine. I enjoy taking care of my family, and my husband enjoys helping (at least he says he does, ha). We share the household chores; somedays I cook and somedays he cooks. We both do laundry and keep the house clean. Sometimes I mow the lawn (i really enjoy doing it, I don't know why) and sometimes he mows the lawn.

This was how I grew up; my parents did the exact same thing. Yet my mother is utterly feminine, and my dad is definitely a manly man.

I think, whenever there is true respect between individuals, then differences such as gender, religion, race...they disappear.

Originally posted by korathin
1) I define Feminism as a female supremacist hate movement; and view individual feminists to be bigoted trash(I don't pity human shield[naive feminists that "aren't like that"]).

Those protestors where in response to a conference on boy's and young men.

I haven't had a chance to watch your videos, but I will. As for feminism being a hate movement, I disagree...but then I haven't lived in your shoes and I don't know what you've experienced.

2) No, we are not even close to gender equality. At best men are second class citizens at worst males are treated as sub-life forms. As prior to the last 3 years, on average, women would go to jail longer for killing a dog then a male(boy's, young man, man or old man). Added to the fact that for the last half decade feminists have been pushing for higher wages for women on the basis of gender(back in 06-07 feminists began pushing the thought that women should make more because they are women, and then feminists began the huge propaganda campaign about women being "shortchanged", as a psycho emotional mechanism so they can justify women making more because of their gender in the same way discrimination against males in education is justified as "payback" for the mythical patriarchy).

I would be interested in any statistics you have that back up your statements here. As for discrimination in education...are you referring to k-12 or college?

This has caused a huge imbalance in Gen Y earnings with women on average making $1.25 more per hour then Gen Y men; and in part time(single male) the discrepancy is even more discriminatory. Coupled with both the institutional bigotry that exists in favor of women, and the social bigotry women enable throughout the educational system and society as a whole, makes it difficult for males not born to affluent families to have access to a decent education.

I work in education, and I have to disagree with this. As far as k-12 grade is concerned, boys tend to outperform girls in math/science while girls outperform boys in language/reading. This is a gross generalization, but you get the point. There are also countless studies that teachers show "favoritism" (that's really not a good word but I can't think of another one at the moment) to the more outspoken students, which tends to be the boys. There's also the subtle stereotype that girls don't do math/science and boys don't do reading/language. The fact is, both genders can and do excel when given the opportunity (allowing for individual differences, of course).

With regards to what happened in your college class, that is deplorable. How did the instructor handle it?

3) Women have reproductive rights while men have reproductive responsibilities. Heck the entire healthcare industry(and insurance for that matter) is a double standard. When one man does something bad the entire male gender is at fault. When one woman does something bad the entire male gender is at fault( or in the rare case the individual is held to task). If one woman does something good, it is projected onto all women, and when a man does something good it is either projected as being an individual doing good or humanity as a whole doing good. One of the big double standards is that it is "OK" for a woman to kill a man for "emotional abuse", but a man cannot as much push a woman who is trying to assault, beat, or stab the man.

Now here I have to agree with you, to a certain point. I recognize that men aren't treated equally with regards to children, especially when the courts tend to favor the mother as the better parent. As for the rest of your statements, that society holds all men accountable, I don't see that myself.

With regards to violence....we both know that violence against women is far more predominant than violence against men. However, women DO NOT have the right to hit a man in anger...and I know there are women out there who are physically abusive to their significant others. If my husband ever hit me, I'd hit him right back (it'd be pretty one-sided, but so be it). I recognize that men are often demonized if they defend themselves. I'll leave it there.
.

If a man is mugged, shot or killed he can be blamed for causing the misfortune that happened to him

I've seen far too many people blame women for getting raped due to their clothing choices to say that only men experience this. There's a common argument "Since she dressed like a slut, she deserves it."

I really liked your closing remarks, but I'm out of room to address them.

Good luck in your college classes!

reply to post by smyleegrl


Not that all women who participate in these activities have high testosterone, but some "man stuff" examples are hunting, construction, maintenance, etc. Im not saying women should not be allowed to do these things. Im just saying its hard to find a feminine woman who does these things. If a woman can do man stuff and still keep her femininity, I think it's awesome.

I will say though that even though I accept women who keep their femininity while doing man stuff, I still believe in tangible gender roles and think that it is more appropriate for women to stay at home with the children while men go work, but in todays economy and fast life, I know that thats not practical. I like just fine for women to pursue whatever theyre good at, but then what happens to the kids who have to be put in daycares to be raised by "the establishment", or "the man". Pun intended. Should I have said, "the person"?

Originally posted by smithjustinb
reply to post by smyleegrl

 

Should I have said, "the person"?

Nah, I'm not nearly that militant anymore.

Personally, I have female friends who hunt and are expert marksmen (not me, I'm too squeamish for hunting but I love to fish, go figure). They are not at all unfeminine. I've known them to go deer hunting in the morning, then get all "dolled up" for a night on the town with their significant other.

I suppose what I would like is for every woman to have the choice to stay at home or join the work force. Personally, I find my job very rewarding...and now that my son is in school I would be bored silly staying at home all day. I think its a decision both spouses need to make together....and if the man wants to be the one who stays at home and takes care of the kids, then that's okay too. I know a lot of wonderful fathers who are better nurturers than their wives.

Thanks for the clarification, star from me!

There is NOTHING that what a man can do, a woman can't, except one thing - natural childbirth.

As a kid, I used to think that in physical matters, girls cant lift weights better than boys, or none at all. But today, I see women working as soldiers and home relocation workers, amongst many other physically challenging jobs. Heck! Even an arab woman recently conquered Mt Everest!

As a teen, I used to think that women have PMS and would not be capable of mental matters. But today, I see women as Prime Ministers, scientists, computer analysts, mathematicians, etc, and doing good job as well as men when given the opportunities.

Thus there are empirical evidences to suggest that women are indeed our equals.

However, one critical issue and very vital to the continuance of the human race is natural childbirth, something men cant do and only women can, even while performing physical or mentally demanding jobs. It is one job revered and thank by all men for all of us came from a natural mother, whom is the only one who can give that special care and concern for years that no plastic bag artificial conception can ever replace.

Perhaps, I would suggest that in the struggle for supremacy, may both men and women look towards our survival as a race, and no matter how much we bitch and fight - never forget the critical role and responsibility of women, according special priviledge BUT a priviledge that MUST NOT be used as a threat or demand for supremacy.

Women's fight for equality is for fair treatment of women, and never for supremacy. Should that fight for supremacy continues on, men may just revert back to the days when women were atrociously locked up at home and fed only when they behave and be obedient. This we MUST NEVER revert back to, EVER. Human men an women are not slaves to be dominated, but are equal, complementing each's shortfall, sharing only common aims for the progress and evolution of our race......

reply to post by smyleegrl


I will start with saying this. Deja Vu! And I will explain.

So this has already happened...meaning I have already replied to this post. Then someone with a kitty cat profile begins dialogue with me. Something about being a male and the responses that I used and perhaps commenting that I called them out in my first response by saying someone with a cat profile. Self-fulfilling prophecy? who knows. All I know is I've been here before......weird. It's been some time sense I experiences specific deja-vu. I also noticed in the past that anytime I call it out before I allow it to happen almost always makes it not happen. That said, it doesn't change the fact I felt it. Anyways......

I am not sure if I am going off topic here but my take on your headline is as such:

The feminine was the prevailing power/enfluence in the last age before Pisces. Pisces was the age of the masculin, i.e. Free Masonry the builders, the masculine. There time too has come to an end. We now should be approaching the age of enlightenment of both masculine and feminine qualities shared.

But to answer your pointed questions:

I think Tenth is right…we need to discuss these issues. Hence this thread.

So here are the questions I’d like to pose to you, ATS. Please answer honestly (but within the T&Cs). Obviously, this is an emotionally charged issue, but I’m sure we can keep things civil.

1. How would you define feminism? I define feminism in a spirtual sense. Meaning that both male and female are not only capable but must embrace the feminine as one does the masculine. Over focus on one over the other makes for an incomplete soul. The feminine is the emotional and the masculine is the physical. This is how I see it but your post has a different meaning.

2. Do you think men and women are equal in today’s society? (Western society) More than ever before but you will never see them as equal. Nor do I think they should. Again both male and female should embrace both characteristics but a female should have prodominate feminine qualities and men should have predominant masculine. This doesn't mean a woman isn't capable of doing a certain function. To me it means that a woman is better suited for A.) while a male is better suited for B.) (and i am not referring to war vs. house cleaning).

3. Do you believe there exists a double standard for men and women? How so? Shouldn't there be? Again, we were created with the intent of opposite polarity were we not? Therefore opposites attract. Everyone should be respected, loved and cherished equally, whether male or female but they shouldn't be viewed as the same. When I think about having to move a piano upstairs I will lean towards the masculine. Does that mean a women can't help? Of course not but it isn't the most logical or ideal.


4. How would you like for society to function? In other words, do you believe society would be better off with strict gender roles or more personal freedom? No this is silly, everyone has an inert skill and has been as such since the beginning of time. We need to embrace those skills and encourage the use to be shared free with those around you. It is your contribution to the collective of liked mined spirits.

Originally posted by smyleegrl

1. How would you define feminism?

Most people equate Feminism with women's rights movements; however that is largely inaccurate. Feminism would be any sociological/political theory attempting to explain interactions between sub-population groups based on gender roles.

2. Do you think men and women are equal in today’s society? (Western society)

There a biological factors and the vast majority of species, including us, have evolved and exhibit gender roles in societal structure. We can never be a completely monotonous society when it comes to the issue of gender; but its hard to argue we are more equal now than at any pint in human history with regards to gender.

3. Do you believe there exists a double standard for men and women? How so?

It's a political issue, when isn't there going to be double standards?

4. How would you like for society to function? In other words, do you believe society would be better off with strict gender roles or more personal freedom?

Personal freedom within limits. Gender roles aren't going to go away and in some ways they stabilize society.

reply to post by smyleegrl

1. How would you define feminism?

I support feminism from its early prime, where women fought to get votes, equal respect at work place, and equal humans.

Fast forward... came the entitled princesses, who wanted equal pay for different load of work, who screams sexism when someone treats them differently yet turn a blind eye when it happens to the male.

Modern feminism is nothing but whining... its nothing like what the women went thru in the 1960s... these princesses are spoiled, reaping the benefits of real women movement..

Women who thinks housework is something inferior, or taking care of the child is something bad. Mothers are better nurturers for the child at early development, and dads are better at later stage but, women wants to compete and leave the child grow on its own retarded way.

Then you will have generation of -insert a type of complex- Kids.

2. Do you think men and women are equal in today’s society? (Western society)

No, why? because we are not equal, instead of addressing that, we try to push roles of man into women and women into man, and expect same output. A male warehouse supervisor for example is much better for their workers(who are mostly males) than a female warehouse supervisor.(i can go further into this from personal experience when i was teenager, its was a life and death issue for a fellow worker)

3. Do you believe there exists a double standard for men and women? How so?

Of course it exist, the whole legal battle over child custody is sexist. Choice of the female alone to choose what happens to a fetus is sexist(she has a choice alone to screw a man's life). A female teacher getting slap on the wrist for having an intercourse with a underage male student is sexist, especially compared to pedophile and jail time for the vice versa gender.

A dad playing with his kids at beach is questioned of his identity compare to a if a women was. And little do people know, women can be pedophiles too, at equal amount as males, sadly males are stupid and suck at hiding it, but who's picture do you get when you describe a pedophile? a male in his 40-50s? possibly not good looking? greyish hair?

4. How would you like for society to function? In other words, do you believe society would be better off with strict gender roles or more personal freedom?

Strict gender roles like the nature intended, do not try to make dad a house pet, and do not try to make mom a front line infantry in Afghanistan. However personal freedom for career should be allowed BUT salary will have to vary according to the individual's contribution. So that means no two different standard for male or female to pass, if you can't make the cut, then you don't make the cut. no subsidizing.


Male and females are not the same, so don't make them act like they are. As humans both should be respect, but that does not mean a helping hand to climb over the wall, you do it yourself if you want to get over the wall.

reply to post by smyleegrl


A bit late to this party, I apologize. It's a bit rude I suppose to take so long to reply when I was mentioned in the OP.

None of the answers I'm about to give are simple. This to me is a very complex topic and it's difficult for me discuss openly and honestly.

1. How would you define feminism?

This is the standard definition:

Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment.

This defintion is correct. However it now only applies to places of the world that we would consider "third world", both economically and socially. Places like Africa or Saudi Arabia for example. One rich, one poor, yet very similar in the way they culturally treat women.

In places of the world like America, or Britain for example, the proper 'label' if any that we should subsribe to is:

Egalitarianism (from French égal, meaning "equal")—or, rarely, equalitarianism[1][2]—is a trend of thought that favors equality for particular categories of, or for all, living entities. Egalitarian doctrines maintain that all humans are equal in fundamental worth or social status, according to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.[3] The Cultural theory of risk holds egalitarianism as defined by (1) a negative attitude towards rules and principles, and (2) a positive attitude towards group decision-making, with fatalism termed as its opposite.[4] According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, the term has two distinct definitions in modern English.[5] It is defined either as a political doctrine that all people should be treated as equals and have the same political, economic, social, and civil rights[6] or as a social philosophy advocating the removal of economic inequalities among people or the decentralisation of power. Some sources define egalitarianism as the point of view that equality reflects the natural state of humanity.[7][8][9]

For the purpose of this thread I am focusing on the political doctrine and not the decentralization of power which some consider socialist..

2. Do you think men and women are equal in today’s society? (Western society)

If you take into account the differences between me and women, their personal, economic, social behaviors etc, you quickly find that in the Western world yes, men and women are very equal in terms of opportunity.

Does sexism exist on both sides? Yes it sure does. Is it equally discussed however and is equal blame placed on both sexes for the on going problems? Aboslutely not.

Much like Patriarchy was a stain on the world and in some respects still is, the modern Feminism movement is fast becoming the same kind of destructive, one sided mentality. It's prevelant in our media, our education and even our politics.
The problem is that we don't talk about how some of the aspects of modern feminism but skew gender issues to one side, or create the illusion that they are non existant for one sex over the other.

Rape for example or the family court system in a lot of these countries just to name a few. There's also the cultural aspect of feminism, like the "bro" movement and the "sensitive" guy movement that's prevelant in our media and entertainment.

3. Do you believe there exists a double standard for men and women? How so?

It's at two sided thing. Women are still mistreated accross the globe in a lot of ways and men are becoming mistreated in a lot of ways. Again, these concepts are very hard to explain and I won't generalize because I won't be made out to be a mysoginist by mis-explaining how I feel.

4. How would you like for society to function? In other words, do you believe society would be better off with strict gender roles or more personal freedom?

The biggest lie ever told was that traditional gender roles were wrong and need not apply in the 21st century.

Much like any of our past cultural normals, there is always room for expansion and change. Let's remember that traditional family roles, like the nuclear family were destroyed not by us, but by the people who pull the strings. They wanted women out of household, they wanted them working so they could justify paying everybody less.

Gender roles have their place. They can be strict or they can be loose, that's a personal decision.

So, hopefully that helps a bit. Again, it's not even all that clear to me how I feel, it's a bit of a new thing I've been investigating and putting thought into.

~Tenth

reply to post by tothetenthpower



I don't think its that much related to wanting to pay others less insomuch as wanting to put all citizens to productive use. More income = more purchasing. Socioeconomic pressures were utilized to achieve this end, vis a vie the destruction of the middle class.

Was this purposeful? I am not sure. Bur i believe so.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Paying people less was all about destroying the middle class. Once they realized they could have women working 40 hours a week at 3/4 wages, they could then justify paying the men 1/2 their wages when they returned from the war.

Not only that, but this allowed the media to start the slow process of indoctrinating our kids towards materialism and the social concepts they wanted to push at the time.

The US learned A LOT of Germany and it's propaganda campaigns. Modern advertising and what amounts to social engineering of the mind today, is largely the result of those successes.

Then on purpose, they created the women right's movement as a means to drive a wedge between men and women for the next 40 or so years. Today the pendulum is swinging in favor of women and if some in that movement have their way, we'll go back to 1950.

Except women will be in charge instead of men.

~Tenth

smyleegrl,
I don't believe we live in a post feminism world. I want to give you a few of my personal experiences-
* A ex co worker; a nice intelligent project manager was jailed before he started working with my company. What did he do? He got laid off. He gave his ex everything in the divorce. I believe he was giving 60% of his income to his wife for alimony and child support. She has a job of her own and could have let him get on his feet but instead when he could not pay her she complained.
* One of my old roommates would pay his ex double the child support the court system told him to pay so that she would let him see his son when he wanted to..
* Another guy I know (second cousin) is an engineer. His wife wanted a divorce and without informing him went to the authorities and said he was abusing their daughter. They went to his office and arrested him no questions asked. I have never meet anyone more docile than him. She told him that she would take back the complaint if he gave her the house, a majority of his income. This women never worked a day, plays bridge with the country club ladies. I believe today she lives in his house in SF and he lives in a one bed room with a salary touching six figures. His daughters treat him like garbage.

The point being the courts are so skewed in women's favor that I am not sure its worth getting married anymore. A lot of eligible men that I know including me, these people are young professionals, are choosing not to get married. Young men have seen how the older generation are/ were treated and have general mistrust of women.

1. How would you define feminism?
Something that was necessary 30-40 years ago but now is an excuse for misandry.


2. Do you think men and women are equal in today’s society? (Western society)
Nope.

3. Do you believe there exists a double standard for men and women? How so?
I believe this goes both ways. Objectification of women. Men make less or as much money as women but are still supposed to pay for dates.

4. How would you like for society to function? In other words, do you believe society would be better off with strict gender roles or more personal freedom?

A real equal society where little girls are not taught to princesses with p-envy. They are allowed to little girls without agenda. Boys are taught to respect girls,women but are allowed to be little boys and not drugged because they want to run around. Everyone is allowed to be without pushing roles. If women want to work then they should if they want to be homemakers then society should not tell them otherwise.