Where Are We Now? Post Feminism and the Modern World

Greetings, ATS!

This thread was inspired by ToTheTenthPower’s response in a rant I wrote. In the rant, I complained about how a lot of people in our society tend to define people by one characteristic; for example, “all women, all men, all Muslims, etc.”

Here is Tenth’s response:

“Although I agree with your overall sentiment, there are problems in our society regarding gender.

Misogyny is alive and well within our society but so is Misandry. And we don't talk about Misandry in our society as it's considered to be somehow sexist and the Modern Feminist movement has been twisted beyond being recognizable.

It's important that we discuss these issues, but not blame ourselves for the divisions, considering that they are mostly caused on purpose as a method of control.”

I think Tenth is right…we need to discuss these issues. Hence this thread.

So here are the questions I’d like to pose to you, ATS. Please answer honestly (but within the T&Cs). Obviously, this is an emotionally charged issue, but I’m sure we can keep things civil.

1. How would you define feminism?

2. Do you think men and women are equal in today’s society? (Western society)

3. Do you believe there exists a double standard for men and women? How so?

4. How would you like for society to function? In other words, do you believe society would be better off with strict gender roles or more personal freedom?

I guess before I could answer any of those questions I would need the women on ATS to answer this question:

Do you want to be treated as a woman or an "equal"? Have a door opened for you, a chair pulled out. Be given a seat on a crowed bus, or in an argument if you slap a man's face have us just take it? Or be equal in every way, and be afforded no special treatment because of gender, to include an argument that turns physical?

Since I started the thread, its only fair I go first.

1. How would you define feminism?

I grew up in the 80s, past the hey day of women's lib. I always thought feminism was about equality; equal pay for equal work, women being able to work outside the home, etc.

2. Do you think men and women are equal in today’s society? (Western society)

For the most part, I do believe we are equal.

3. Do you believe there exists a double standard for men and women? How so?

Yes, I actually do. Sometimes men get the shaft, especially when it comes to custody issues. Courts should recognize that men are sometimes the better parent, and award that man custody. It should be determined on a case by case basis, and not just assuming the woman should always get the child.

4. How would you like for society to function? In other words, do you believe society would be better off with strict gender roles or more personal freedom?

I'm for personal freedom and the right to live your life however you want. Having said that, I am fairly comfortable with the traditional gender roles, especially if the couple chooses to go the traditional route. I don't think it should be forced on anyone, though.

Answer to 1

A method of thinking that defines success by male standards yet is unable to see the irony and futility in this practice.

Still thinking about the others

Post feminism? I wasn't aware it ever stopped or even slowed down. If it's post, somebody needs to get the memo to the Family court system.

Do you want to be treated as a woman or an "equal"? Have a door opened for you, a chair pulled out. Be given a seat on a crowed bus, or in an argument if you slap a man's face have us just take it? Or be equal in every way, and be afforded no special treatment because of gender, to include an argument that turns physical?

reply to post by Carreau


I can only speak for myself.

I like it when a man opens a door for me, or pulls out a chair. At the same time, I don't expect the man to do this. Just like in my dating years, I never really thought it was fair for the guy to always pay....sometimes I paid, and sometimes we went dutch.

No one should EVER slap someone else and expect the other person to take it. Having said that....if a woman loses her temper and hits a man, AND he's considerably bigger/stronger than she is....he has the right to restrain her but he shouldn't beat the crap out of her. And women shouldn't take advantage of men's natural inhibition against hitting women in the first place.

Originally posted by Carreau
I guess before I could answer any of those questions I would need the women on ATS to answer this question:

Do you want to be treated as a woman or an "equal"? Have a door opened for you, a chair pulled out. Be given a seat on a crowed bus, or in an argument if you slap a man's face have us just take it? Or be equal in every way, and be afforded no special treatment because of gender, to include an argument that turns physical?

I'll take that question. I want to be treated as an equal. I want equal pay for equal work, I want to be respected for the content of my character and my intelligence rather than being judged inferior for being of the female sex. If I take a swing at anyone, man or woman, I expect someone to swing back. However I fully appreciate being treated like a lady- having doors held open for me and chairs pulled out as I am sure many men appreciate being treated like gentlemen. I believe we can all treat each other equally without losing respect for each other as ladies and gentlemen.

reply to post by smyleegrl


Excellent topic!

I stayed away from that other thread, that apparently got you so worked up!

1. How would you define feminism?

I see "Feminism" as a movement that started with Women's suffrage and has evolved into issues of reproductive rights, workplace equality in pay and seeks a greater involvement in religious leadership.

Of course there are extremists on both sides of this issue.

2. Do you think men and women are equal in today’s society? (Western society)

No, but we're getting closer.

3. Do you believe there exists a double standard for men and women? How so?

Absolutely, especially when addressing sexual promiscuity. Men will be men, but women are sluts.

The double standard of equality in public and in the workplace see more and more disparagement of equal treatment and respect as women age. While men age with dignity, women become more haggish. Women are judged by their looks more than men.

4. How would you like for society to function? In other words, do you believe society would be better off with strict gender roles or more personal freedom?

We need to see more acceptance of gender specific role reversal. For example, more single fathers, or fathers stepping up in the "day care" aspects of parenting. and male kindergarten teachers.

I know that there's a lot more to say. But that's a start.

reply to post by smyleegrl

1. How would you define feminism?

Feminism is the promotion of the female gender.

2. Do you think men and women are equal in today’s society? (Western society)

No one is equal. No two people are the same. Equal in rights? One would hope, but I'm not sure that is the case.

3. Do you believe there exists a double standard for men and women? How so?

Feminism is itself a double standard. Its very name promotes one gender over another and excludes those who are without femininity.

Patriarchy is oligarchy. To think oligarchy affects only one gender is untrue.

4. How would you like for society to function? In other words, do you believe society would be better off with strict gender roles or more personal freedom?

No one should be turned away from achieving what they want to achieve.

reply to post by Carreau

Do you want to be treated as a woman or an "equal"? Have a door opened for you,

I hold the door open for others, regardless of their gender, and expect that if I'm following a stranger into the bank, he wouldn't let the door slam onto my face either. If I see an elderly person struggling with groceries in a parking lot, I'll them, regardless of their gender.

I don't need anyone opening doors for based on my gender. But, I noticed that when I was pregnant, strange men were falling all over themselves to open doors and such. I think chivalry is more a masculine mating ritual that comes natural to men, to impress women.

a chair pulled out. Be given a seat on a crowed bus,

Nope

or in an argument if you slap a man's face have us just take it? Or be equal in every way, and be afforded no special treatment because of gender, to include an argument that turns physical?

Violence is never acceptable.

reply to post by smyleegrl

How would you define feminism?

I would most likely define feminism with the stander definition. But I wouldn't doubt there are many conflicting views of feminism today.

Do you think men and women are equal in today’s society? (Western society)

Yes, because women can succeed were men can succeed.

Do you believe there exists a double standard for men and women? How so?

To be honest I think there are many yahoos regardless of gender, race, etc. You have a lot of stupid men out there who see women as nothing but reproductive sex machines. However, there are also stupid women who like to use people. As I mentioned people are yahoos and in my opinion are no better than how they act.

How would you like for society to function? In other words, do you believe society would be better off with strict gender roles or more personal freedom?

Personally I feel society needs to be more organized and structured. I do not care about gender roles and feel both men and women can be great leaders and role models.

reply to post by smyleegrl


Great topic!

Originally posted by smyleegrl
1. How would you define feminism?

Equal legal and societal treatment of men and women.

2. Do you think men and women are equal in today’s society? (Western society)

Are they 'equal' as in - being a man is the same as being a woman? No. And they shouldn't be. Men and women GENERALLY are different, have different strengths and weaknesses.
Are they treated equally? No.

3. Do you believe there exists a double standard for men and women? How so?

Yes. There are many - that go both ways.

Women don't get paid the same.
Women are seen as less intelligent and "moody", whereas men are seen as more practical.
If a woman climbs the corporate ladder, she gets judged as being "manly", whereas men are praised for being strong and intelligent go-getters.
Society makes judgments about a female politician's hair and clothes, as if that's what she has to offer, whereas male politicians are judged for their positions on issues.
Women aren't tested to the same standards for some jobs (military)
Men aren't considered equally for custody of children in divorces.
Men can't legally opt out of fatherhood in the case of an accidental pregnancy.
Men can't make jokes about women or it's considered sexist, but women can complain publicly all day long about "men!" And society thinks that's fine.

4. How would you like for society to function? In other words, do you believe society would be better off with strict gender roles or more personal freedom?

I'll always be on the side of more personal freedom and taking each case individually. If a woman can physically do the job, and is the most qualified, then she should get the job and be paid the same as a man would. On the other hand, if an accidental pregnancy occurs, a man should have the option to say, "I'm not ready or willing to be a parent - I want out."

These are complicated questions... I think I am going to have to take some time on them and visit this thread later if I remember.

I have a few sections inspired by feminism in my personal philosophy, if anyone is interested in the meantime (link in signature).

Scroll up to the essays marked A Hint of My Feminist Philosophy or Cause-and-Effect / Healthy and Unhealthy Choices.

edit on 20-5-2013 by darkbake because: (no reason given)

reply to post by Carreau

Originally posted by Carreau
I guess before I could answer any of those questions I would need the women on ATS to answer this question:

Do you want to be treated as a woman or an "equal"? Have a door opened for you, a chair pulled out. Be given a seat on a crowed bus, or in an argument if you slap a man's face have us just take it? Or be equal in every way, and be afforded no special treatment because of gender, to include an argument that turns physical?

Equal. I will open the door, pullout my chair and stand on the bus. I will NEVER slap a man or anyone else, unless they hit me first and I am doing it out of self-defense.

reply to post by smyleegrl

1. How would you define feminism?

Gender equality. That is the official definition, however feminism is diverse and it includes everything from egalitarians to female supremacists who identify themselves as feminists.

2. Do you think men and women are equal in today’s society? (Western society)

Yes. I think only minor issues remain here and there, but feminism has achieved its main goals decades ago, in western society.

Well done OP, for having the guts to start this topic which feminists will trash you down as a misogynist.

I do not have the time to answer those questions you posed, and do think women themselves are the ones who should reflect and answer them honestly rather than to trash the messenger, for only through honest debate and discussions will we find a solution to the mess were are in.

Everyone knows very well by now how PAST women in the west had been treated, and equally today's women in the East are treated.

No matter how bad humankind had displayed their nature, there are far more whom are empathic, and it was them that finally supported women's rights in the west.

Unfortunately, it is only human nature to want to PROTECT those rights AT ALL COSTS and ANY COSTS, even if it means women have to thumb down and push down men's rights.

You see feminist rights being slowly pushed into the mainstream - from education, to the workplace and to politics and to the courts.

Do not get me wrong. I suppot women's rights. I came from a woman's body whom carried and nutured me for 9 months, and years after with love and tender care, to set me right and become a contributor of society.

However, the issue becomes - are women DEMANDING MORE rights than men? Are they demanding that they take over men, and rule over men, when the declaration of women's rights was to meant to make women as men's equal, but because women feel that they need to protect those rights - they now demand domination instead of equality?

1. How would you define feminism?

It's a movement to bring equality to women, because they really had the short end of the stick about anywhere in society.

2. Do you think men and women are equal in today’s society? (Western society)

Pretty much, by official standards, women are way more equal to men than the poor are to the rich for example.

3. Do you believe there exists a double standard for men and women? How so?

There will always be double standards. In general, women are weaker physically and men are weaker in grasping subtilety. Men are easily pointed out of maybe being pedophile, bad, violent, sex oriented while women are trusted more by strangers, especially if she is beautiful.

On the other hand, like someone said earlier, a men that sleeps around is normal while a women is a slut for doing it. Women have much more pressure on the way they look, even tough I would say most women dress for each other, fierce competition.

4. How would you like for society to function? In other words, do you believe society would be better off with strict gender roles or more personal freedom?

I believe gender roles are a thing of the past in most areas of society. We each have individual talents that should be used optimally. I'm a man but I have a lot of qualities that are usually more predominant in women while some of my "men" abilities are weaker.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
However, the issue becomes - are women DEMANDING MORE rights than men? Are they demanding that they take over men, and rule over men, when the declaration of women's rights was to meant to make women as men's equal, but because women feel that they need to protect those rights - they now demand domination instead of equality?

It's only natural some will try to have more than others.

If power shifts too much, we will surely have masculinity movements and I will gladly join if I feel something must be done to bring back equality in rights.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Women don't get paid the same.

It really depends where, I often worked in bars and women tend to make more money there than men

Women are seen as less intelligent and "moody", whereas men are seen as more practical.

Less intelligent? I feel like society is pushing an agenda that men are stupid and women are intelligent, I mean listen to TV a bit and you'll see my point.

If a woman climbs the corporate ladder, she gets judged as being "manly", whereas men are praised for being strong and intelligent go-getters.

Actually women will be judged with things like : Oh I wonder she slept with who to get that promotion.

Society makes judgments about a female politician's hair and clothes, as if that's what she has to offer, whereas male politicians are judged for their positions on issues.

That's quite untrue and men, well, they always dress the same so nothing to judge there.

Women aren't tested to the same standards for some jobs (military)

Same in police and firefighters, I actually feel that it's dangerous to lower standards in those types of dangerous professions.

Men aren't considered equally for custody of children in divorces.
Men can't legally opt out of fatherhood in the case of an accidental pregnancy.
Men can't make jokes about women or it's considered sexist, but women can complain publicly all day long about "men!" And society thinks that's fine.

Those 3 facts are 100% true and should be eventually looked up in defining equal rights.

reply to post by theMediator


It's interesting you had some kind of disagreement with me on every count where I think women are maligned, yet agree with me on the points where men are being maligned... You felt it was necessary to "correct" my opinions. Thanks, but my opinions stand.