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To Vilify the Ego

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posted on May, 23 2013 @ 11:29 AM
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reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 


Perhaps you could IM me, if such a feature exists on ATS? If not I am sure we can arrange a place. IMing would make this a lot faster and a lot simpler, and if my information results in a deeper understanding, we could bring what was said, back here.




posted on May, 23 2013 @ 11:39 AM
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reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 


Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
It's not self-evident at all, bb. It's actually self-refuting.
It is only self-refuting to the one identifying awareness with the actual changes that are occurring. Notice that no matter what changes occur you are still simply aware. Even in deep sleep this is the case, though it manifests as unconsciousness in most people because there are no objects or changes arising for them to identify with! But even in deep sleep people wake up and say, I slept very well!


Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
Take away the bodily senses, how aware can one be? Remove body parts until there is only left a torso, how aware is that torso? Watch someone's bodily functions cease, deteriorate, and change into dust; how aware is that dust? Show me the awareness of my son, who hasn't been born yet. Awareness cannot and does not transcend the physical bodies that produce it.
Congrats on your son! So you are psychic - I knew it!


Or are you truly having a son? If so, big congrats on that!


Anyway, when you make the statement "Awareness cannot and does not transcend the physical bodies that produce it" you actually do not really know this. You are thinking it is self-evident, and believe this to be true, but in fact, you do not really know this. It cannot be proven for a number of reasons - the main one being it simply is not the case.

However, if you can prove it to be the case, please, show us!


Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
The physical aspect of the organism is a prerequisite to any sort of awareness, consciousness, etc. That's what is evidently the case. Awareness can be observed to be affected by alcohol, sleep, narcotics, brain injury—by simple and dumb physical properties—and are witnessed to cease at death every single time, billions and billions of examples of this.
Awareness associated with the body-mind is no longer associated with it when the body-mind dies, but you do not know in truth that awareness also dies. Again, you are just making unproven, even idealistic, claims here.


Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
This is the point of the whole OP, this refusal to accept oneself as he truly is, a self-negating attitude which is quite common it seems.
I am not advocating any self-negating attitude whatsoever. My first post on this thread stated that the ego-I is best viewed as the whole body-mind. I never said it should be villified, negated, etc. I have always noted that any such consideration must take the whole body-mind into account, not just abstract from it into some soup of awareness separate from all arising.

Here is that first post:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

In fact, not noticing that you are awareness itself actually is villifying the body-mind because the boundless energy of reality itself is resisted, even refused, by the presumption that we are only the body-mind.

edit on 5/23/2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 11:41 AM
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Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by Unity_99
 




If anything it is a jail for a time, and we're trapped in by the magnetic pump/heart and the magnetic blood flow, bars.

Calling oneself a prison can only lead to self-contempt.



Thought creates so it is important. There must be a better way to phrase it. Our bodies are very needed for this realm and an extension of us, so that having joy in the beauty and the gift is important. Choosing to see it as a gift. I always want out and to take as many away to better worlds as I can, but need to work out a more positive language for the body.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by Itisnowagain
 





The ego is what believes it can die so - yes, ego and survival go together.
Because ego believes it can die or be harmed ego will always be under threat - it fears so fights and defends.


Is it wrong in this belief?

Ego is fear, it is contraction so it only knows threat - it is all about securing yourself, making yourself feel ok. Everything is a threat, it is the normal condition for the one that is divided (separate) - it is the human condition - living under threat.
When you find out what you really are and what this really is the fear goes away. The need to fight and defend drop away and there is peace and compassion.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 12:05 PM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 



Ego is fear


Is that what you got from the definition I posted a page or two back? If so, you need to read it again. Fear has nothing to do with it unless you are afraid of yourself. In which case, that applies to you and you alone. Again, I would venture to suggest that this is yet another example of how you take your personal experiences and simply assume that this is the standard experience for any and all undergoing the same process or state of existence.

Perhaps your experiences are as personal as your preference of clothing or music.
edit on 23-5-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 12:13 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


The ego is that which feels it needs to defend itself. Even if a simple insult is made against it, the fight-or-flight reaction will be initiated. Obviously you can see the ridiculousness in that.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 12:18 PM
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Originally posted by Risingfall
reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


I think I get what your trying to say. Oneness can only be experienced.
For example: There is only the NOW but our minds has ideas about past and future.
So actually nothing is all there is. But because of our mind, we see, taste, hear, feel and smell something that's actually not there. We make something out of nothing.

Is that right? Or did I miss the point?


There is only ever what is happening (as presence) - what is happening is not happening to anyone - it is just happening. The happening arises as minding - there is nothing wrong with minding.
Oneness cannot be experienced - oneness is what is experiencing the experience - it is what is knowing the seeing, the hearing, the tasting.
What appears to be seen or heard is real but fleeting, the scenery is constantly changing, it is transitory but that which knows this is constant. If one looks toward what is seeing the scene in this moment one becomes aware of the space in which all apparent things arise.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 12:21 PM
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reply to post by HarryTZ
 



The ego is that which feels it needs to defend itself. Even if a simple insult is made against it, the fight-or-flight reaction will be initiated. Obviously you can see the ridiculousness in that.


Oh my god. You've applied like three or four different definitions to the word "ego" throughout this thread, obviously stemming from your own understanding of the word. Excuse me, but your understanding sucks.

Now read the ever-loving definition supplied by an actual professional material. Merriam-Webster makes a point of being concise and accurate with its definitions. READ!



ego
noun \ˈē-(ˌ)gō also ˈe-\
plural egos

Definition of EGO

1: the self especially as contrasted with another self or the world

2a : egotism 2

b : self-esteem 1

3: the one of the three divisions of the psyche in psychoanalytic theory that serves as the organized conscious mediator between the person and reality especially by functioning both in the perception of and adaptation to reality — compare id, superego


As you can see, none of what you said applies. Now that we can see what the ego is according to professionals, we don't have to rely upon your cognitive dissonance to understand the complexities of the human ego.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 12:23 PM
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Originally posted by Unity_99

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by Unity_99
 




If anything it is a jail for a time, and we're trapped in by the magnetic pump/heart and the magnetic blood flow, bars.

Calling oneself a prison can only lead to self-contempt.



Thought creates so it is important. There must be a better way to phrase it. Our bodies are very needed for this realm and an extension of us, so that having joy in the beauty and the gift is important. Choosing to see it as a gift. I always want out and to take as many away to better worlds as I can, but need to work out a more positive language for the body.


Some believe their bodies to be temples and continue forward accordingly.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 12:28 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Itisnowagain
 



Ego is fear


Is that what you got from the definition I posted a page or two back? If so, you need to read it again. Fear has nothing to do with it unless you are afraid of yourself. In which case, that applies to you and you alone. Again, I would venture to suggest that this is yet another example of how you take your personal experiences and simply assume that this is the standard experience for any and all undergoing the same process or state of existence.

Perhaps your experiences are as personal as your preference of clothing or music.
edit on 23-5-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

I answered that particular post.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

If you are unable to recognize the self, you cannot distinguish the self. Hence, you cannot sustain it. Your argument is that the self does not exist. With that kind of mentality, it's a miracle you're even alive.
edit on 23-5-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

There is the Self and there is an extra illusionary self. The illusionary self is ego.
This right here and right now (presence) is aliveness- it is timeless being or the Self.
The one that plays in time is an illusion.
There is only presence and it pretends to be separate but it never is. Nothing ever escapes presence - it just dreams that it does.

It seems you believe you have the definitive definition of ego because you got it from a dictionary.
Would you like to comment on the post I replied to you and not the post I replied to Les?



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by bb23108
reply to post by ImaFungi
 


Originally posted by ImaFungi
What is your argument that you are not your mind-body? Do you have hands? a mouth? legs? have you ever thought? imagined? used your memory? Have you ever done anything that did not involve your mind or body? if you are not your body or mind, I suppose you wouldnt mind me slowly severing your fingers and toes, and legs and arms? If you are not your mind and body, I suppose I could cut open your head and play around with your brain, eventually removing it from your body, and this would have no affect on you? When I use the term 'you', what is meant? what is meant when you use it? When you look in the mirror, what are you looking at? who? where did 'you' come from?
Hahahahaha! Nooooo... not again! You and I just spent several days talking about this on another thread starting with the link below - and it goes on for several pages with some very long explanations, all the way to the end of that thread!
www.abovetopsecret.com...

This Tar Baby thread must be immortal! It just will not die!


In all seriousness, ImaFungi, if you reread my posts there and do not think I at least tried to answer your questions above, let me know and I will try again here.


edit on 5/23/2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)


Id like you to answer each question I took the time to ask in that reply. I dont recall fully comprehending what you 'believe' or know about existence and reality, but I am interested in further discussing it.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 12:35 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


You can't very much have a concrete definition of ego; it is a very abstract term that, in fact, covers everything that makes us feel separate from everything else. Your definition even states that.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 12:44 PM
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reply to post by bb23108
 


Yea, you dont have any evidence of this being true... It seems like one day or over the course of several, you used your awareness and mind body to have thoughts; and you came up with, these thoughts I have, allong with the totality of my sensory perception, and awareness of my sense perception, primaly exist ("this is so brilliant, and so comforting it must be true!"), there for I dont need to really think or worry about anything, I dont need my body because im not my body (wow this really makes me feel good, but is it good for anything else?)... why of course, if I hold this belief then it makes me percieve myself as an allmighty creator god, heroically tangled in this material web, I created this universe ya know, my awareness, which has always existed, I invented the idea of suns and galaxies and atoms and chemistry, because my awareness has always existed, and awareness is what creates things... Ok so yea you just made this fanciful idea up, called it absolute truth, because the idea became self evident when you made it up... this is really just garbage.. you really have no clue what the universe is, what you are, how these things came to be, how your awareness works, etc. and you have given up thinking about these topics, to become comforted by this belief system you fashioned... Does believing your awareness has always existed, and is transient beyond this universe and material, and has no components, and is mysterious and magical, does that have any other benefits other then making you (your ego) feel good about existing as you really currently truly do, as a mind body? Of course we do not seek benefits in knowing truth, so if it is the truth, that your and mine, and every ant and aliens awareness has existed forever, and is non material, yet the most real, how do you theoretically imagine these awarenesses came to be? how do you imagine they continue to exist? what are they made of? can they be destroyed? is anyone in control, or are we all in control? why cant we completely change the macro universe at a whim if we are in charge? etc.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 01:08 PM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 
Wow! I am glad I read your last post right before starting to answer your prior questions once again.

Where did I ever say anything about being in charge or creating a universe? Did you actually go back and read my prior posts where we had that elongated dialog earlier? Or are you actually directing this response at someone else and you mistakenly replied to me?

Also, a bit of practical posting advice - please use some paragraphs - a "wall of text" is more difficult to follow, and is often ignored by many readers. Thank you.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 01:15 PM
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reply to post by HarryTZ
 


Originally posted by HarryTZ
 

You can't very much have a concrete definition of ego; it is a very abstract term that, in fact, covers everything that makes us feel separate from everything else. Your definition even states that.
Actually you can have a concrete definition of ego. It is the body-mind. When you speak to another, you are referring to their body-mind, not some inner process or entity called "Joe" or whatever.

When others call you Harry, they are referring to your body-mind too. This is simply necessary for communicating with one another and makes the most sense to me that the ego-I be defined that way. It also fits in with your statements about the ego feeling separate, etc.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 01:20 PM
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reply to post by bb23108
 


Every so-called 'ego' is unique and different from all the rest. Each person has his or her own desires, thoughts, judgements and biases that equate to the totality of the ego. You cannot have a concrete definition because it would have to cover every aspect of every ego that exists.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 01:25 PM
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The ego is the belief that you are a thing among other things.


edit on 23-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 01:26 PM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


Fear is a necessary response to the rest of the world. Without fear, there's nothing from stopping people from walking off cliffs. Our true nature is not that of the lemming.

Those who repudiate their own fear need to get out more.


edit on 23-5-2013 by LesMisanthrope because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 01:33 PM
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reply to post by bb23108
 



You are thinking it is self-evident, and believe this to be true, but in fact, you do not really know this. It cannot be proven for a number of reasons - the main one being it simply is not the case.

However, if you can prove it to be the case, please, show us!


I'll repeat myself:



Take away the bodily senses, how aware can one be? Remove body parts until there is only left a torso, how aware is that torso? Watch someone's bodily functions cease, deteriorate, and change into dust; how aware is that dust? Show me the awareness of my son, who hasn't been born yet. Awareness cannot and does not transcend the physical bodies that produce it.

Awareness can be observed to be affected by alcohol, sleep, narcotics, brain injury—by simple and dumb physical properties—and are witnessed to cease at death every single time, there are billions and billions of examples of this.


Will you address these?



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 01:34 PM
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reply to post by HarryTZ
 




You cannot have a concrete definition because it would have to cover every aspect of every ego that exists.


I said in the OP the ego is the memory or idea one has of himself.



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