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To Vilify the Ego

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posted on May, 23 2013 @ 08:26 AM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


I think I get what your trying to say. Oneness can only be experienced.
For example: There is only the NOW but our minds has ideas about past and future.
So actually nothing is all there is. But because of our mind, we see, taste, hear, feel and smell something that's actually not there. We make something out of nothing.

Is that right? Or did I miss the point?




posted on May, 23 2013 @ 08:47 AM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


Originally posted by ImaFungi
What is your argument that you are not your mind-body? Do you have hands? a mouth? legs? have you ever thought? imagined? used your memory? Have you ever done anything that did not involve your mind or body? if you are not your body or mind, I suppose you wouldnt mind me slowly severing your fingers and toes, and legs and arms? If you are not your mind and body, I suppose I could cut open your head and play around with your brain, eventually removing it from your body, and this would have no affect on you? When I use the term 'you', what is meant? what is meant when you use it? When you look in the mirror, what are you looking at? who? where did 'you' come from?
Hahahahaha! Nooooo... not again! You and I just spent several days talking about this on another thread starting with the link below - and it goes on for several pages with some very long explanations, all the way to the end of that thread!
www.abovetopsecret.com...

This Tar Baby thread must be immortal! It just will not die!


In all seriousness, ImaFungi, if you reread my posts there and do not think I at least tried to answer your questions above, let me know and I will try again here.


edit on 5/23/2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 09:13 AM
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reply to post by bb23108
 



To be sure! And, even so, our most fundamental "experience" is awareness itself. This is self-evidently the case. To deny this is to deny one's very existence.


And that, good sir, I will agree with...so long as the term fundamental is applied. It is wise to recognize that awareness does extend beyond the initiality of existence itself - at least as far as we are concerned. You, me, the OP...we are all aware of more than simply existing.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 09:19 AM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 



If you were disinterested why are you even discussing?
This moment is the only thing that is not of the imagination.


Because I have arguments in support of respecting the ego that are substantiated by observations that exist outside the imagination. In contrast, your arguments for vilifying or dismissing the ego are based on observations that cannot be proven to originate from anything other than your imagination and how you imagine reality to be.

The ego, by its very definition, is necessary for our survival.



ego
noun ˈē-(ˌ)gō also ˈe-
plural egos

Definition of EGO

1: the self especially as contrasted with another self or the world

2a : egotism 2

b : self-esteem 1

3: the one of the three divisions of the psyche in psychoanalytic theory that serves as the organized conscious mediator between the person and reality especially by functioning both in the perception of and adaptation to reality — compare id, superego


If you are unable to recognize the self, you cannot distinguish the self. Hence, you cannot sustain it. Your argument is that the self does not exist. With that kind of mentality, it's a miracle you're even alive.
edit on 23-5-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 09:20 AM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 



What is an ego?


See my post directly above.
edit on 23-5-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 09:40 AM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 

reply to post by AfterInfinity
 

I will try to summarize what I have been so long-winded about elsewhere.

In reality, we are awareness. If we identify with the changes that we are aware of, then we think we are actually those changes. If we recognize that in reality we are simply awareness, those changes come and go, but do not change us in terms of our fundamental nature (as awareness).

Even in both of you two's extreme examples of limb severing, this would all occur in one's awareness, and does not affect one's awareness in reality. Now of course it affects the body-mind, just like any change does - but not one's true nature as awareness itself. (The awareness I am speaking of, is not just the mental observer that does die with the body-mind.)

This process of just naively and automatically identifying ourselves with the changes (i.e., the body-mind) is what must be undone through the observation that we are always awareness. The assumption that we are the body-mind is based in fear and can be noticed to be untrue. But this actually requires a moment to moment recognition that we are only ever simply witnessing what occurs, not actually being the changes themselves. Simply witnessing them. This is NOT a matter of abstracting from the body-mind, going elsewhere, etc., but is a simple recognition of who we are in reality.

It is not a matter of villifying the ego, nor the body-mind, but of noticing our actual reality. The ego-I is simply the body-mind arising in reality itself, and true recognition of our nature as awareness itself, actually greatly serves the life of participation with the whole body-mind where it stands.

There I go again, getting long-winded about this!

edit on 5/23/2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 09:43 AM
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reply to post by bb23108
 


But I am my body. This body is tied to me, personally. If you could switch my "awareness" from this body to another, I would be more inclined to agree. But I was born with this body, I grew up with it, and I will die with it. There is no point during my life that I will be truly separated from this body. If my arm were to be cut off, I would no longer have any awareness of a limb in that area. That sensation, that stimulus, would be gone forever. This says that my awareness is not a suitable replacement for a medium through which to experience that awareness. A computer is nothing without a monitor and controls. A car is nothing without the body by which it transports people. A mind is nothing without a body by which to express itself.

I can come to no other conclusion in this matter, given what I know and have experienced innumerable times to be nothing less than fact.
edit on 23-5-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 09:50 AM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 
Awareness transcends all such conditional examples. (Again, this awareness is not simply the observer function of the mind that does die with the body-mind.) That we are awareness itself can be recognized to be self-evidently the case and is our inherent freedom. Simply put aside ALL presumptions one way or another, and notice this most fundamental reality in any given moment.

There is no arguing that will convince you - it can only be pointed out as always being the case, but it requires you to recognize the self-evident truth of this matter, of who you are in reality.


edit on 5/23/2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 10:08 AM
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reply to post by bb23108
 




Awareness transcends all such conditional examples. This can be recognized to be self-evidently the case and is our inherent freedom. Simply put aside ALL presumptions one way or another, and notice this most fundamental reality in any given moment.

There is no arguing that will convince you - it can only be pointed out as always being the case, but it requires you to see the self-evident truth of this matter.


It's not self-evident at all, bb. It's actually self-refuting.

Take away the bodily senses, how aware can one be? Remove body parts until there is only left a torso, how aware is that torso? Watch someone's bodily functions cease, deteriorate, and change into dust; how aware is that dust? Show me the awareness of my son, who hasn't been born yet. Awareness cannot and does not transcend the physical bodies that produce it.

The physical aspect of the organism is a prerequisite to any sort of awareness, consciousness, etc. That's what is evidently the case. Awareness can be observed to be affected by alcohol, sleep, narcotics, brain injury—by simple and dumb physical properties—and are witnessed to cease at death every single time, billions and billions of examples of this.

But, because it doesn't sound as cool as some all pervading "awareness", it is simply regarded as untrue.

This is the point of the whole OP, this refusal to accept oneself as he truly is, a self-negating attitude which is quite common it seems.


edit on 23-5-2013 by LesMisanthrope because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by Bluesma
 


What is an ego?


It's whatever you claim it is. Varies from person to person.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 10:19 AM
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reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 


That, to my mind, is self-evident. Not this fundamental awareness stuff. I am aware only because I have a body.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 10:32 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by bb23108
 


But I am my body. This body is tied to me, personally. If you could switch my "awareness" from this body to another, I would be more inclined to agree. But I was born with this body, I grew up with it, and I will die with it. There is no point during my life that I will be truly separated from this body. If my arm were to be cut off, I would no longer have any awareness of a limb in that area. That sensation, that stimulus, would be gone forever. This says that my awareness is not a suitable replacement for a medium through which to experience that awareness. A computer is nothing without a monitor and controls. A car is nothing without the body by which it transports people. A mind is nothing without a body by which to express itself.

I can come to no other conclusion in this matter, given what I know and have experienced innumerable times to be nothing less than fact.
edit on 23-5-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)


if you are aware/awake and in touch with your soul abilities, you can switch bodies....that does occur, and even amongst black ops.

You are not your body though it does reflect you to a certain extent, it was made for you.

If anything it is a jail for a time, and we're trapped in by the magnetic pump/heart and the magnetic blood flow, bars.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 10:32 AM
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"In Huna (Polynesian shamanism) it is believed that we have three selves; a divine higher self, the conscious ‘I’ and an ego, child-like ‘lower’ or carnal self. A lot of the work that is done in attaining happiness is through resolving all and any issues with your carnal self. While many spiritual traditions teach that you should seek to destroy your ego or carnal self, a few traditions have taught the world how to use this part of you to attain all that you desire.

This is the philosophy that most appeals to me as you cannot gain spiritual enlightenment through negating any part of yourself and hiding it away like some dirty secret. Your ego, your carnality are part of what makes you human so you should embrace and seek to work with your carnal self."

www.satyacenter.com...

The above quote from Tania Ahsan, Editor of Britain's Prediction Magazine, resonates with me, in the way I look at how my ego and all it's unexplored or hidden facets must be explored.

I also agree with this philosophy that she has embraced:

"Bullying or being bullied was not considered acceptable but fights were seen as regrettable and yet understandable. I was raised not to turn the other cheek but to know the difference between the slap that needed an answer and that which could be forgiven. With this fierce righteousness, we were also taught the importance of humility. ‘The more wisdom a man acquires,’ explained my father. ‘The more humble he becomes’. "



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 10:34 AM
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reply to post by bb23108
 


Arguing against their beliefs is just as futile as their arguing against ours. We mustn't make it priority to, for lack of a better term, convert them. They think they know what they think they know, and we think we know what we think we know.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 10:44 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity

If you are unable to recognize the self, you cannot distinguish the self. Hence, you cannot sustain it. Your argument is that the self does not exist. With that kind of mentality, it's a miracle you're even alive.
edit on 23-5-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

There is the Self and there is an extra illusionary self. The illusionary self is ego.
This right here and right now (presence) is aliveness- it is timeless being or the Self.
The one that plays in time is an illusion.
There is only presence and it pretends to be separate but it never is. Nothing ever escapes presence - it just dreams that it does.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 10:47 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity

The ego, by its very definition, is necessary for our survival.


The ego is what believes it can die so - yes, ego and survival go together.
Because ego believes it can die or be harmed ego will always be under threat - it fears so fights and defends.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 10:53 AM
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The ego makes problems and lives in a world of problems.
When non dual awareness is found to be the natural state - all problems go away and none are made again.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 11:25 AM
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reply to post by HarryTZ
 





Arguing against their beliefs is just as futile as their arguing against ours. We mustn't make it priority to, for lack of a better term, convert them. They think they know what they think they know, and we think we know what we think we know.


I agree with this Harry. I am trying hard to understand where you're coming from but I can't quite shake my axioms.

I realize I cannot understand what you mean by "awareness". If you can offer an understandable definition of said term, by using thought experiments, arguments, or anything that may allow me to see as you do, I will accept the definition and perhaps we can move this stalemate forward.



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 11:26 AM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 





The ego is what believes it can die so - yes, ego and survival go together.
Because ego believes it can die or be harmed ego will always be under threat - it fears so fights and defends.


Is it wrong in this belief?



posted on May, 23 2013 @ 11:27 AM
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reply to post by Unity_99
 




If anything it is a jail for a time, and we're trapped in by the magnetic pump/heart and the magnetic blood flow, bars.

Calling oneself a prison can only lead to self-contempt.



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